Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?
Someone already pointed this out, but the character can stealth in darkness since you have total concealment. It isn't like anyone can see you anyway... you're effectively invisible. HiPS and Hellcat stealth essentially just let you stealth in low light and bright light as if it were darkness.
This character's one weakness might be be darkvision. A very strict reading of hellcat stealth says you can't use it to hide from creatures with darkvision if you aren't in normal or bright light, and creatures with darkvision can see through both darkness and dim light so HiPS won't help either.
Edit: I guess you would just have to bring a light with you so you could use hellcat stealth to hide from the creatures with darkvision, lol.
They aren't the same type of movement. One travels further; the other can be taken along with longer actions, but is more careful.
For consistency regarding what is and isn't half speed, here's a question you should ask yourself:
A medium rogue (30 feet of movement) is adjacent to an enemy fighter. The rogue attacks the fighter, then attempts to tumble 5 feet away, then move another 25 feet away with normal movement.
Should the rogue take a penalty for moving at full speed, or not? She's not spending 10 feet of movement to tumble 5 feet away. Would she only ever take a penalty for tumbling when she tumbles a total of 20 feet?
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Well, if in the darkness, then the PC could just light a Torch, and bring things to Dim Light(or brighter).
If using the Shadow Well ability, then you could reasonably use it in darkness. It allows you to use the Stealth skill even while being observed and without cover or concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own.
What is darkness, but a large shadow?
Also, couldn't you tumble away, and use stealth at the same time?
Well, if in the darkness, then the PC could just light a Torch, and bring things to Dim Light(or brighter).
If using the Shadow Well ability, then you could reasonably use it in darkness. It allows you to use the Stealth skill even while being observed and without cover or concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own.
What is darkness, but a large shadow?
Also, couldn't you tumble away, and use stealth at the same time?
Sure. Half speed for acrobatics and half speed for stealthing, resulting in spending 20 feet of movement to tumble 5 feet away while stealthing. It won't get the standard character far, but a character can stealth or tumble (or both) at higher speeds by accepting penalties to the checks or benefiting from special effects.
And some creatures just have 60 foot move speeds, and can happily eat movement penalties that high.
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If the PC moves 5' he does not have to tumble
5' Step Roll Stealth Vanish... As long as he Meets the Lighting Requirements or Breaks line of Sight then yes no further Penalties...
The issue with Hell Cat and Shadow Dancer is there are Light Requirements
In Total Darkness this will not work against Dark Vision... In Every other Lighting Situation these to abilities will allow you to vanish while being Observed
In the Errata here is how it works now
Stealth is a Condition at the being of the round If you move out of Cover you have to roll at the End of your Turn against Perception
If you Attack they Are Aware of you and you become Observed. Normally You can not Stealth...
But Hide In Plain Sight and Hell Cat Change that.So Basically the way they Changed it,
You Attack someone... You Say I stealth away
With the Hell Cat Feat in bright light
You Move at the end of your turn You roll Stealth at -10 against their PerceptionAs long as your Move Ends with Cover... Darkness... Walls whatever... And you Beat their Perception... You stay stealth.
Why do you need walls/cover, etc at the end of that turn?
Going to quote some official rule here to help clear things up.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
You can never use Stealth to hide in darkness or dim light from a creature that is observing you use with darkvision, unless you can become invisible or have cover. Hellcat Stealth does allows you to use Stealth to hide from creature with darkvision in any light with a -10 penalty, assuming you have cover or concealment (which HiPS negates), as a creature with darkvision treats darkness and dim light as normal light.
Taking a 5-foot step is a "No Action", according to the chart of Actions in Combat. No where in Take a 5-Foot Step does it say that taking a 5-foot step is at normal speed. Speed (your normal, base land speed) is always defined by your size and armor. You can take a 5-foot step at no penalty to Stealth, as 5-feet is less than half your normal speed of 20- or 30-feet. If your normal, base land speed is 5 feet, than you take the penalty to Stealth.
That section also states that you cannot take a 5-foot step when hampered by darkness. If you have darkvision, or can otherwise see in the dark, you are no longer hampered by darkness, and can thus take a 5-foot step to Stealth.
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Alright, so the if the PC tumbles/stealths 5' away, then he effectively has Total Concealment.
Once he has successfully hidden himself, he can 5'step, and not take penalties to further stealth checks?
Not in the same turn. You can't use 5' Step and move in the same round.
If you have a move action, you should be able to use Stealth without moving, though it might be easy to guess which square you were in.
Not the same round. The round after being hidden.
What if it doesn't end in Cover/Concealment etc.?
That is not required for this PC.
So, unless he does something that breaks stealth, like attack, or run, then he's fine, right?
If the movement doesn't end in cover or concealment, then Stealth breaks if the character would be observed by others at the end of his turn.
Hide in Plain Sight allows a character to use Stealth to hide while being observed as long as he is within 10 feet of dim light (concealment). Therefore, as long as his Stealth check succeeds after the movement, he can remain in Stealth after ending his turn without cover or concealment, as he is still not considered observed at the end of his turn.
This PC does not actually need Dim light either, it just helps.
So, he ends his turn, without cover, or concealment, while observed.
He is in any lighting condition other than darkness.
He stays hidden.
Right?
If he has Hellcat Stealth and HiPS, then he does not need dim light, but takes a -10 penalty to stay hidden. If his check is successful, he stays hidden.
Alright, so the if the PC tumbles/stealths 5' away, then he effectively has Total Concealment.
Once he has successfully hidden himself, he can 5'step, and not take penalties to further stealth checks?
In my understanding of the rules, you would take a penalty to Stealth anytime you stealth using a 5-foot step without an ability that negates stealth penalties when moving faster than half speed. It wouldn't matter whether you were near the enemy, or if you had already been detected or not. The existence of the penalty would be based entirely on what kind of action you're using for stealth, and how fast you're trying to move
I see 'half speed' as being based on the movement of the action that is used for the stealth. A typical creature (speed 30) that stealths at half speed with a move action may go 15 feet without a penalty. Still, creatures of different speeds have the same movement during a 5 foot step -- five feet. It doesn't usually matter what your base speed is when five foot stepping. Your base speed simply isn't referenced.
You cannot take 5 foot steps that are at reduced speed; and you take penalties when stealthing at faster than half speed. Therefore, in order to make stealthy 5 foot steps you must either accept the penalty in order to move at full speed which allows you to use the 5 foot step at all, or use a different action, or don't stealth, or find a way to negate the penalty.
Many creatures in your example will elect to use Move actions at half speed to avoid the penalty, while others will accept the penalty, while yet more will invest in Fast Stealth.
Similarly, under my interpretation, a rogue that uses two move actions to move at half speed twice during one round will not be given a penalty. Although she has moved a distance equal to her speed, since I interpret each action as having been at half speed, she never moved fast enough to incur a penalty.
Or consider a rogue with speed 30 that attacks an opponent, then tumbles 5 feet away and moves 25 feet away. Some people would not give this character a penalty for tumbling at full speed, since at no point does its tumbled movement equal half of its move speed. I, however, ask beforehand if the rogue is moving at half speed (spending 10 feet of movement for every 5 feet of distance) to determine whether it's taking a penalty or not.
That kind of explanation might help illustrate why you usually can't stealth without a penalty in very gamey terms: You can't spend 10 feet of movement, when all the movement you have available to spend is 5.
I think that fully explains my thought process.
This is the truth! This is my belief. At least for now...
When you are in an area of total darkness, you are effectively blinded. I don't think a successful check to hear an enemy allows you to reclaim your Dex bonus to AC.
If he has Hellcat Stealth and HiPS, then he does not need dim light, but takes a -10 penalty to stay hidden. If his check is successful, he stays hidden.This PC does not actually need Dim light either, it just helps.
So, he ends his turn, without cover, or concealment, while observed.
He is in any lighting condition other than darkness.
He stays hidden.
Right?
Hide in Plain Side does not have a -10 penalty. Only Hellcat Stealth does.
Bright or Normal: -10 Penalty
With 10' of Dim light: No penalty
Darkness: No penalty. Visible to Darkvision
I was referring to penalty from Hellcat Stealth in order to ignore the dim light requirement. I was referring to HiPS for the rest of his conditions (without cover/concealment/observed). Both of them together results in in the correct answer to blackbloodtroll's question.
yeah Sell Sorry i was typing out that long explanation when you typed all that didnt mean to write over ya.
No problem! :)
Alright, so the if the PC tumbles/stealths 5' away, then he effectively has Total Concealment.
Once he has successfully hidden himself, he can 5'step, and not take penalties to further stealth checks?
In my understanding of the rules, you would take a penalty to Stealth anytime you stealth using a 5-foot step without an ability that negates stealth penalties when moving faster than half speed. It wouldn't matter whether you were near the enemy, or if you had already been detected or not. The existence of the penalty would be based entirely on what kind of action you're using for stealth, and how fast you're trying to move
I see 'half speed' as being based on the movement of the action that is used for the stealth. A typical creature (speed 30) that stealths at half speed with a move action may go 15 feet without a penalty. Still, creatures of different speeds have the same movement during a 5 foot step -- five feet. It doesn't usually matter what your base speed is when five foot stepping. Your base speed simply isn't referenced.
You cannot take 5 foot steps that are at reduced speed; and you take penalties when stealthing at faster than half speed. Therefore, in order to make stealthy 5 foot steps you must either accept the penalty in order to move at full speed which allows you to use the 5 foot step at all, or use a different action, or don't stealth, or find a way to negate the penalty.
Many creatures in your example will elect to use Move actions at half speed to avoid the penalty, while others will accept the penalty, while yet more will invest in Fast Stealth.
Similarly, under my interpretation, a rogue that uses two move actions to move at half speed twice during one round will not be given a penalty. Although she has moved a distance equal to her speed, since I interpret each action as having been at half speed, she never moved fast enough to incur a penalty.
Or consider a rogue with speed 30 that attacks an opponent, then tumbles 5 feet...
When taking a 5-foot step, your base land speed does not become 5 feet. Nowhere in the rules for 5-foot steps is that supported. The rules do say that if your speed is 5 feet (base land speed), then you can't take a 5-foot step. You must take a normal move action to move at your speed, 5 feet, because a 5-foot step would at your full movement, no part of it.
Your speed is not based on the action you are taking. Moving only 20 feet in a round when your speed is 30 feet does not mean that your speed is 20 feet. You only used 20 of your available 30 feet to move. Your movement doesn't have to be in 5-foot increments either. Moving 8 feet is mechanically no different than moving 10 feet; on a grid, you move 2 squares in both cases. Likewise, taking a 5-foot step only consumes 5 of your available 30 feet of movement.
Tumbling while using Stealth does not alter your base land speed either. The half-speed from Stealth refers to your base land speed, not the distance you moved. Tumbling 15 feet does not mean that you incur penalties to Stealth if you move more than 7 feet. When Tumbling 15 feet, your base land speed does not become 15 feet.
You can move 30 feet in one move action, and then walk another 30 feet (your speed), tumble 15 feet (1/2 your speed), climb 7 feet (1/4 your speed), or swim 7 feet (1/4 your speed) in another move action. Your base land speed never changes no matter what actions you take in a round, only your available amount of movement. When you Tumble, your available amount of movement for that action is 15 feet (half your base land speed).
Take a 5-Foot Step states, "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement." You can move 4 feet as a 5-foot step if you like (you won't go anywhere mechanically, but you still won't provoke an attack of opportunity), because the amount of available movement you have for that action is only 5 feet. It does not mean that your speed is 5 feet for that action.
Well that is where you have to remember the Stealth Errata
Your movement has to end in Cover and Concealment....
If a Creature can See in Normal light... this Check lets Stealth while being Observed... that is all these things are allowing...
Stealth is still not Invisibility... If you are in Line of Sight of Something while Stealth at the end your Turn you will become Observed and they are Aware of you... Without Cover or Concealment of some kind.
This is ONLY for basic use of the Stealth Skill. HiPS and Hellcat Stealth modify an individual's ability to use the Stealth Skill. The ONLY reason you would need to end your turn in cover/concealment is because, using BASIC Stealth, you must have cover/concealment to use Stealth.
This new rule in the Errata did one thing: Addressed a question on the forums of whether or not a person using basic Stealth can move from one point of cover/concealment to another point of cover/concealment without being automatically spotted in the uncovered/unconcealed areas between them.
All these things do is allow to do the one thing you could not Previously and that is Stealth while Someone is looking at you AND while in a lit area, But if something can See in Light and you are Standing in front of him at the end of your turn you will be seen... This is giving you the ability to use your Skill to be Evasive.
No, actually they VERY CLEARLY allow TWO things:
1. You may now use Stealth EVEN WHILE BEING OBSERVED.2. You may now use Stealth EVEN WITHOUT COVER/CONCEALMENT as long as you meet the lighting requirement.
If you have HCS or HiPS your Stealth use is no longer hindered by observance and no longer has any requirement for cover/concealment (as long as you meet the lighting prerequisites). There is no HCS or HiPS description that says "You may BEGIN using Stealth..." they say "You may USE Stealth...".
Going to quote some official rule here to help clear things up.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.You can never use Stealth to hide in darkness or dim light from a creature that is observing you use with darkvision, unless you can become invisible or have cover. Hellcat Stealth does allows you to use Stealth to hide from creature with darkvision in any light with a -10 penalty, assuming you have cover or concealment (which HiPS negates), as a creature with darkvision treats darkness and dim light as normal light.
I disagree with this on several points.
For what it's worth, JJ has also stated that LLV and DV offer no interferance with HiPS. HERE and HERE are what he had to say.
Taking a 5-foot step is a "No Action", according to the chart of Actions in Combat. No where in Take a 5-Foot Step does it say that taking a 5-foot step is at normal speed. Speed (your normal, base land speed) is always defined by your size and armor. You can take a 5-foot step at no penalty to Stealth, as 5-feet is less than half your normal speed of 20- or 30-feet. If your normal, base land speed is 5 feet, than you take the penalty to Stealth.
That section also states that you cannot take a 5-foot step when hampered by darkness. If you have darkvision, or can otherwise see in the dark, you are no longer hampered by darkness, and can thus take a 5-foot step to Stealth.
I completely agree with this interpretation of 5' steps and Stealth. Without seeing further rules on the matter I have no reason to believe that a 5' step can ever be considered your maximum speed. As you said, maximum speed is determined by race/armor. Also the line in Stealth pretty clearly points toward taking a full Move Action vs. moving half your base speed, IMO.
Okay, so this PC can basically be invisible to all(with the right stealth check), except in darkness?Someone already pointed this out, but the character can stealth in darkness since you have total concealment. It isn't like anyone can see you anyway... you're effectively invisible. HiPS and Hellcat stealth essentially just let you stealth in low light and bright light as if it were darkness.
This character's one weakness might be be darkvision. A very strict reading of hellcat stealth says you can't use it to hide from creatures with darkvision if you aren't in normal or bright light, and creatures with darkvision can see through both darkness and dim light so HiPS won't help either.
Edit: I guess you would just have to bring a light with you so you could use hellcat stealth to hide from the creatures with darkvision, lol.
See my previous post about DV not hindering HiPS.
And with Hellcat Stealth or HiPS you do not need Cover or Concealment if the lighting conditions are right. That's what they do.
Thank you, thejeff.