My players and I finally broke into true ship to ship battle rules yesterday with their Man's Promise and Dominator going up against the Deathknell.
I've never seen more dreadful, mind-numbingly lousy mechanic design is my life.
The Man's Promise possesses 800 HP, while the Dominator and the Deathknell each have 1620 HP.
Ballistas and catapults just don't hold up against those kinds of hit points. The Dominator got a crit with its catapult on the Deathknell for, wait for it, a whipping 38 damage. Then they broadsided it for 138 damage using the quick barrage rules.
However, said barrage only has a 25% chance of hitting, meaning it would take 40 such barrages from the Dominator to sink the Deathknell.
We all said "screw this, we don't won't to be here all night," and started boarding actions.
What did we miss? How is ship combat supposed to be anything other than a mind-numbing slug fest? Why include them at all if the rules are going to be THAT boring, rather than just encouraging the much more fast paced and exciting boarding actions?
And if the ship is magically propelled AND not trying to escape, such as was the case with the Deathknell, what then?
Yeah I'm not going to be using them. My intention is to use Fire as She Bears for Razor Coast. It is designed around the idea of party members actually doing stuff in the combat like you would see in a movie battle. Should be much more exciting.
I just didn't want to learn or explain the rules, so I skipped them completely. I'll use the relevant parts if the party want to disable some specific part of the ship, but so far it hasn't felt like anything is missing.
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There's a thread about naval combat in here where someone suggests doubling the damage dice for all shipboard weapons, as well as segmenting the ships' HP in quarters for port, starboard, etc. Taking parts of the ship down to 0 negatively affects the ship. Those may help, if you want to bother looking into them/use ship-to-ship combat ever again.
Just starting to go through Fire as She Bears. Each hull location has 150 hp and rigging 75 so it will still be easier to knock out the sails and slow it down for boarding. If it is magically propelled then you can either try for a below the water line hit which has 300 hp or do a boarding action. Haven't really worked any of this out yet, but it does suggest the use of larger catapults and ballista.
I've just read through Fire as She Bears. It seems pretty good, with a decent chance of actually battering the enemy into submission with gunnery, instead of only going for boarding all the time.
IN my game group, we're going to give it a try. We'll keep some of the suggested improvements to ships from S&S, and we'll keep the prices for ships at 10.000 gp(otherwise PC's be filthy rich the second they managed to capture a ship), but for combat, we'll be playing Fire as She Bears.
We'll keep some of the suggested improvements to ships from S&S, and we'll keep the prices for ships at 10.000 gp(otherwise PC's be filthy rich the second they managed to capture a ship)....
Remember that the "prices" for ships are what a particular type of vessel can be purchased for on the open market. The price PCs can get by selling it to a dealer or broker is half of that, just like any other loot. Condition of the ship and the legality of the PCs "ownership" can also effect the value, and "hot" vessels with dubious documentation aren't going to be worth as much. Keeping previous owners from recognizing and demanding their ship back is why places like Rickety's Squibs exist, and the cost of those services will also cut into the profits. The rules for selling Plunder at various localities and the Diplomacy adjustments to price that the PCs can attempt also can be usefully applied to the sale of captured vessels.
Finally (and without giving too much away) as the AP progresses the PCs are going to want to begin building a pirate fleet of their own, so it may be worthwhile for them to keep and man captured ships or at least find a safe hidden anchorage where they can be stashed away against future need.
We'll keep some of the suggested improvements to ships from S&S, and we'll keep the prices for ships at 10.000 gp(otherwise PC's be filthy rich the second they managed to capture a ship)....Remember that the "prices" for ships are what a particular type of vessel can be purchased for on the open market. The price PCs can get by selling it to a dealer or broker is half of that, just like any other loot. Condition of the ship and the legality of the PCs "ownership" can also effect the value, and "hot" vessels with dubious documentation aren't going to be worth as much. Keeping previous owners from recognizing and demanding their ship back is why places like Rickety's Squibs exist, and the cost of those services will also cut into the profits. The rules for selling Plunder at various localities and the Diplomacy adjustments to price that the PCs can attempt also can be usefully applied to the sale of captured vessels.
Finally (and without giving too much away) as the AP progresses the PCs are going to want to begin building a pirate fleet of their own, so it may be worthwhile for them to keep and man captured ships or at least find a safe hidden anchorage where they can be stashed away against future need.
Also, there are rules in the AP regarding the sale of captured ships. I believe they can be traded in for plunder not gold. Therefore, the actual gold received is reduced even more if the plunder is converted to gold based on the size of the community.
Also, there are rules in the AP regarding the sale of captured ships. I believe they can be traded in for plunder not gold. Therefore, the actual gold received is reduced even more if the plunder is converted to gold based on the size of the community.We'll keep some of the suggested improvements to ships from S&S, and we'll keep the prices for ships at 10.000 gp(otherwise PC's be filthy rich the second they managed to capture a ship)....Remember that the "prices" for ships are what a particular type of vessel can be purchased for on the open market. The price PCs can get by selling it to a dealer or broker is half of that, just like any other loot. Condition of the ship and the legality of the PCs "ownership" can also effect the value, and "hot" vessels with dubious documentation aren't going to be worth as much. Keeping previous owners from recognizing and demanding their ship back is why places like Rickety's Squibs exist, and the cost of those services will also cut into the profits. The rules for selling Plunder at various localities and the Diplomacy adjustments to price that the PCs can attempt also can be usefully applied to the sale of captured vessels.
Finally (and without giving too much away) as the AP progresses the PCs are going to want to begin building a pirate fleet of their own, so it may be worthwhile for them to keep and man captured ships or at least find a safe hidden anchorage where they can be stashed away against future need.
And finally, if your PCs do sell it off for gp, remember that you have to split that up with your entire crew. They get their shares as pirates, not pay. The selling the ship for plunder instead of gold takes this into account, so you don't have to worry about the crew as much.
Plus the fact that having large amounts of gold may look good but in reality in this game it's not as much as it seems. If the ship gets damaged it will cost to get it repaired properly, modifications costs gold as do seige engines and ammo. If you have more than one ship in your'e command you are looking at a fair bit of plunder/gold to keep everything shipshape and the crew happy.
I'm not at all worried about the PC's capturing ships and selling them for 5 plunder, to be divided amongst the crew. However, that assumes Pathfinder ships, at a value of 10.000 gp. A Fire as She Bears ship come at about 5 times that cost, even for a simple sailing ship. I wouldn't like the PC's to sell a 52.000 gp ship.
Just stick with s&s for that. Remember Fire as she bears is not written for S&S but for Razor Coast. If you want to use it you will need to pick and choose bits to use or convert over, you won't be able to use the book out of the box so to speak as some things will not work properly.
The Razor and Golarian are quite different economies. I could stat out a sailing ship for about 30K in FASB, but remember that is the cost to build new, not a used ship. As for the partial incompatibility, I am not all that concerned as I bought FASB for Razor Coast, not S&S. If I can use it for S&S so much the better, but it is one AP.
Is the point of the no-cannons Skull and Shackles default not that you pretty much have to board another ship?
Pretty much.
Remember, you're Pirates for profit!
Sinking the other ship means no plunder & no ship.
Which = No profit!
No profit = a very unhappy crew and nobody wanting to sail for you.
Sometimes it will be a matter of ship to ship combat where you will be trying to sink the other ship, but on the whole you want to board and take all you can.
DBH
The 'boarding is the only possible strategy'-default is also due to the ridicoulous high hp's of S&S-ships.
A standard sailing ship has 1620 hp. It'll take forever to sink it. Thus, if only to save time, you board the foe to end the combat.
If, on the other hand, ships could actually be sunk in combat, I could imagine an enemy captain striking the colours to save the ship and crew from being sunk. This off course requires the pirates to accept such a surrender, but some crews could do so.
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have ran several ship to ship while GMing. It was quick. PC's pilot role vs others was embarrassing. Averaged 2-3 ups, so would close fast. Than fireballs came into play so moved the encounter distance too 1000 feet. You can do alot of fireballs in that distance. Simple truth is that MAGIC rules the Seas. take that away and the rules for battle would be real boring for some. pounding away for 800 points or so. Couse some would like spending all session sailing around each other.
Dont forget the cost of the ammo....
its easier to convince them to surrender.
Or equip your crew with crossbows, and shoot their crewmembers.
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The 'boarding is the only possible strategy'-default is also due to the ridicoulous high hp's of S&S-ships.
A standard sailing ship has 1620 hp. It'll take forever to sink it. Thus, if only to save time, you board the foe to end the combat.If, on the other hand, ships could actually be sunk in combat, I could imagine an enemy captain striking the colours to save the ship and crew from being sunk. This off course requires the pirates to accept such a surrender, but some crews could do so.
How good at damaging other ships would ship-born non-cannon siege engines actually be? I'm not sure the difficulties aren't a decent reflection of the robustness of ships...
I know almost nothing about historical naval warfare but to me it would be hard to see ballista and catapults ever doing the type of damage that canons can do. Of course they had Greek Fire which was much more deadly than alchemist fire!
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Is the point of the no-cannons Skull and Shackles default not that you pretty much have to board another ship?
Actually, the real reason you don't see cannons is so that the anti-firearms-in-our-fantasy crowd doesn't have another conniption fit over their "precious fantasy" being ruined. So despite black powder fitting into this campaign, sadly there are a great deal of people that would be turned off by it. Being able to use cannons makes damage much better.
I'm actually trying to figure out how people are having issues with damage, since at least with the Ultimate Combat rules for vehicles, most ships have enough firepower on their port/starboard to knock down the HP of a ship. I mean, with just the sailing ship, you get 10 Large direct fire siege weapons on each side to fire with. Granted, I'm not using the S&S rules, instead sticking with Ultimate Combat and something more interactive with everyone. But I'm not really seeing the issue. Although again, I'm looking at it with usage of cannons, so maybe that's my issue.
Sorry if I sound irate, but Skull & Shackles is a sore spot for me. I actually love the adventure, even the dungeon crawl since to me, it makes sense with both Spanish Main pirates and Irish pirates to have your own keep. But, I felt the adventure would have been a great deal better with firearms and black powder. Ballistas and crossbows just feel lame, and in the game I'm running, there will be black powder.
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I don't know if any of you guys have seen this, but in the Gamemaster Guide, on page 214, they have some simplified quick rules for faster naval combat. Seems like something you're looking for Ravingdork, though it doesn't have much in the way of customization.
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Yeah they are really simplified, but I guess if you don't want to have to deal with naval combat it will do the trick. Kind of defeats the purposed of playing S&S or Razor's Coast though IMHO.
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I know almost nothing about historical naval warfare but to me it would be hard to see ballista and catapults ever doing the type of damage that canons can do. Of course they had Greek Fire which was much more deadly than alchemist fire!
Catapults and ballistae did do terrible damage in their times they were actually used, since they were used against structurally weak(er) galleys in a different age. Nevermind that damage from a catapulted rock seems way low... just envision what will happen if one of those actually hits a car, nevermind a shed.
Unfortunately, there is no plunging fire in Pathfinder.
Sailing ships of the late medieval and renaissance times, nevermind in the age of sails were built with far stronger sides (several inches thick, about 8" and up for warships, usually planked in several layers with something like oak or teak, if available) and structure with dozens of additional reinforcing spars giving lateral and structural strength and elasticity. Pretty resilient.
Just remember that 12-pounder cannonballs (which were in regular use on english frigates ) bounced off (!) the sides of the US frigates in the war of 1812 at greater than point blank range, with much stronger 18-pounders hardly penetrating. That's telling something about the strength of tarred and layered hardwood. Wooden sips only became obsolete with the advent of rifled gunbarrels and shaped projectiles. and even "Monitor" and "Merrimac" stood hardly any chance to penetrate oaken planking reinforced with iron/steel plates in the civil war.
If interested, have a look at "USS Constitution" in the Boston Naval Yard. Or the tripple decker "HMS Victory" in Portsmouth or the Dutch East Indiaman rebuilt near Amsterdam . Those sides are NOT made from plywood.
Looking the rules and everything over, where are you getting the Man's Promise at 800 HP? Should that not be 1620 for a sailing ship?
So the Man's Promise is considered in the broken condition? First thing the party will need to get fixed after they take over.
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it never gets that far if your using the rules from the book. d4+1 squares away when you start. you roll and loose up almost every time since the players have prepared professional sailor really high. within 2 rounds your grappled, and the shp is there within a few more rounds. not much damage to the ship.
If one does some research into the tactics of the day the goal was to reduce the opposing crew in preparation for boarding, not to try and sink other ships. So what you are getting squares with the historical realties.
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I have players that do historic battles. It dosnt work with fantasy. by the time the players are there own captain and crew they have magic spells. soon they can be throwing mercy fireballs from 1200 feet away with a rod of reach and without it is still 600 feet. My players tried the catapults and ballista once, just to give it a go. After that forget it. this is a fantasy game and spells will trump ship guns every time.
Do your players a favor and give them cannons. Cannons make much more of a difference in destructive power than ballistas. Trust me, it's not unbalancing (any more than fireball) and your players will thank you.
I have players that do historic battles. It dosnt work with fantasy. by the time the players are there own captain and crew they have magic spells. soon they can be throwing mercy fireballs from 1200 feet away with a rod of reach and without it is still 600 feet. My players tried the catapults and ballista once, just to give it a go. After that forget it. this is a fantasy game and spells will trump ship guns every time.
This. 1 or 2 Fireballs will kill enough crew to make a sailing ship uncontrolled.
Military vessels will either use oars and sails or will have some kind of magical defense.
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I'm planning for military ships in my campaign to have a onboard ships wizard, specialized in counterspelling.
Makes sense, those ships are a huge asset and worth protecting with a ships wizard. Also, fire isn't the best way to plunder or capture another ship. Tends to make for an unhappy crew if all you are doing is burning other ships to the hull. Besides the crew is spread over all the hull and rigging locations and the fireball will affect only one, so what you are killing maybe 3 crew?
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I've never seen more dreadful, mind-numbingly lousy mechanic design is my life.
So I guess you did not play the caravan combat rules from Jade Regent? ^^
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Had another game yesterday in which ship to ship battles went a fair bit better, now that we have an understanding that they are just a prelude to boarding actions.
They captured a warship and four other sailing ships in yesterday's game alone.
Why does this module not assume that they will build a powerful fleet in short order? They are now cakewalking ship to ship combat simply because they have more ships and weapons.
Also, why does the module start everyone so close? Ship battles ALWAYS start at 90-180 feet away. That's ridiculously close when you take into account archers and spellcasters. Our group doesn't have either of those, yet the enemy ship's rarely have any time to do anything at all before the PCs ram and board them (made all the more easy when the PCs get to move 3 additional squares every round by winning the upper hand).
I've since instituted a house rule that they must spend 1 plunder point PER ship crew in order to maintain their fleet's happiness whenever they sell plunder. With great power comes great upkeep.
I've not seen any rules anywhere in the first or second module saying ships can only be sold for plunder.
Not even the settlement base limit rules do much when a PC buys an agile mithral breastplate for under the base limit from one vender, then takes it to another vender and pays under the base limit to have it enchanted to a +2, then takes it to a third vender to have it enchanted with the shadow property for under the base limit.
Players are clever, and such limitations are often just a speed bump.
Could someone explain ship actions to me?
For example, can a ship use the FULL AHEAD and STAY THE COURSE actions while also making a broadside attack with its weapon batteries?
The rules aren't at all clear on what actions can be taken and by whom.
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Yes it can, since it's using the driver's standard actions to make the move.
I should clarify. What I mean is, on the driver's turn, the ship makes it's movement.
Also, I just read the rules about ship combat in Skull and Shackles and wow... I can see why people hate it. It's different from Ultimate Combat (which I'm using) since apparently, it's an all or nothing thing. You get one attack roll and only do the average damage of your siege engines. No wonder it's take forever to kill things. Although I suppose it's faster than making 10 attacks rolls.
Broadside attacks are limited to attacking propulsion or the ship's "body."
Can't really use it against, say, a sea monster.
...why not? I don't see anything saying otherwise, in either Ultimate Combat or Skull & Shackles.
Broadsides: Some ships can carry a large number of siege engines. Rather than bog down ship-to-ship combat with numerous individual attack rolls, siege engines can be fired in broadsides.” All siege engines of the same type on a single side of the ship can fire at once. Broadside attacks can only be used to attack the structure of a ship or propulsion. Make a single attack roll for all of the siege engines in the broadside. If the attack roll is successful, all of the weapons hit their target. If the attack roll fails, all of the weapons miss. On a successful attack roll, take the average damage of a single weapon and multiply it by the number of weapons in the broadside to determine the total damage dealt.
You could still do a standard multi-roll barrage, however. My PCs ordered their crew to open fire on a manticore. Four of the ten ballista bolts hit and killed it in extremely anticlimactic action. Poor beast never even got to do a single strafing run.
I think that sentence is there to show that you can't aim it at specific things on the ship, for instance, individual crew or the steering device. You can still certainly aim it at large sea beasts and whales. Flying creatures would be harder since they could just avoid the sides of the ship.
A ballista is a siege engine and not exactly effective against shooting against flying creatures. It takes a full round action to aim it and then the creature would move on you. That is why they were used against relatively large objects like a ship or a castle. Doubtful the creature is going to cooperate and hover there so you can aim at it one round and attack it with 10 ballistae the next round.
A ballista is a siege engine and not exactly effective against shooting against flying creatures. It takes a full round action to aim it and then the creature would move on you. That is why they were used against relatively large objects like a ship or a castle. Doubtful the creature is going to cooperate and hover there so you can aim at it one round and attack it with 10 ballistae the next round.
Actually, it depends on the ballista and your crew members are assisting. A light ballista actually has no aim time. And having an NPC with the Master Siege Enginneer helps too.
Still might make more economical sense to have the entire crew firing crossbows and doing almost as much damage and much cheaper on the ammunition! You would also now have your archers also for attacking enemy ships. Also don't have to worry about it coming from the bow or the stern.
Also, there is no rule stating that you have to re-aim once the target moves.
Also, there is no rule stating that you have to re-aim once the target moves.
OK, you are aimed at a target and I move the target how are planning on hitting it? There might not be a rule per se, but common sense should apply IMHO at least.