Calm down there, Vince.
Jus' give me a bit to work, like we've said. And try to pay a little more attention.
I know. I'm sorry. I understand the MCA is typically in pursuit of creating new single classes that are built around a theme. The questions i'm trying to get answers for don't necessarily line up with those goals as much as what you guys do here to make an MCA inherently makes you guys the best at answering those questions.
I like what you guys do here and its very likely that the clockwork mage was the inspiration for the character i'm running now.
If it really is an MCA that i'm shooting for, then the theme I'm shooting for is more the 'summoner who sacrifices as much has he can in terms of hit dice and spells per day for higher casting levels'. What i'm actually playing in a campaign is what I've typed already. The original question I set out to have answered is "has this been 'not nerfed enough, nerfed just enough, or thou hast nerfed too far'... and if its 'not nerfed enough' then 'how much more nerfin would it need.'
It is more difficult I think when, unlike a normal archetype, things are not traded one for one. Everyone's opinion on what each ability is worth is a moving target. Wizards sacrifice spells per day for versatility, sorcerers sacrifice early access to high level spells and versatility for spontanaety and spells per day. Partial casters sacrifice higher level spells for other abilities and more lower level spells per day. Each one of those has other interesting things like bloodlines and eidolons and familars... From a certain standpoint i'm trying to go for the 'most broken combination' which is 'eidolon, high level spontaneous casting' and the sacrifices i'm trying to make to make that happen are 'feats, spells per day, and versatility' and the question of 'when is it enough' is the tough target to hit...
In terms of the archetype style 'what are we trading here' mechanic, I can't really go one for one. Instead what I end up with is:
Does the sacrifice of a first world summoner going from 8 hit die to 6, giving up light armor, shield, most weapons, being able to cast less spells per day (as few as or less than a wizard), and going from 3/4 bab to half bab, just enough, not enough, or too much of a trade to justify 'casting higher level spells (at the rate of the wizards table or thereabouts)'?
Or if it seems like a shorter trip, the question would be 'Does the sacrifice of a Conjuration specialist wizard giving up scribe scroll, 4 feats, the arcane focus/familiar, all the skillpoints of being an int class, the ability to learn spells from spellbooks and scrolls (bringing his total versatility down to say 80 spells instead of infinite) make up for the fact that he now casts spontaneously and gets a first world eidolon (not a full 10 hit dice eidolon but a 6hd eidolon who's bab is half of her level, which is 3/4 of his level) seem like 'just enough, too much of, or not enough of a trade.'? Or would it perhaps require changing all the 4s on his spells per day list to 3s instead...
If the answer to either of those questions is 'no thats not enough' then thats bad news for me. If the answer to both those questions is 'enough' or 'more than enough' then i'm in good shape.
@Vincent: Your last three paragraphs are exactly the sort of thing we try to determine, and IMHO neither is quicker or cleaner than the other.
We make concise (where possible) trades of abilities, and compare them to the vanilla class and/or similar abilities, suites and power combinations of other classes. Then we discuss it.
Now remember, you seem to have a fairly specific concept and perhaps some attachment to that concept. From a gestalt thread, to the MCA thread to the construction of that MCA there is necessarily some refining to that concept to make it workable. You will ultimately decide where that refinement sits - either too much for your tastes or something that does justice to your idea.
Let's see what Raider comes up with and then we can move from there.
At least for my own purposes anyway. It would be 'most of the way' to getting an MCA that's not overpowered. It's just missing a 'theme' that the class is built around...
Then again I like the idea that this combination of sacrifices would make just as viable a 'feral fey' theme as it would a 'necro-eidolon' theme.
Yeah. Sorry again for my machinegun walls of text. I'm home, and while bored, the pursuit of this concept does energize me. I'm a pretty stream of consciousness and relatively quick typer. Too many skillpoints spent in 'avid blather about exterranneous intricacies and nuance' I think. Thank goodness for the new 'retraining' chapter in Ultimate Campaign! ^_^
@+5 toaster:
* Coordinated Attack: How about +1 to attack and damage replaces WT1, +2 replaces WT2 and then it scales to +4 at 13th level? Maybe +4 is too much?
I guess the problem I have with a bunch of summoned monsters with + to attack is not so much the extra damage incurred but also the rate at which they can impart special conditions/effects with said attacks.
* Imparted Knowledge is still unclear - is this an at will ability? Can each monster gain the benefit of a different feat? Can it be changed every round? I'd like to see some options here - specifying either one feat for all, or one feat/per combat or any combination of those. Otherwise it will get tricky very quickly keeping track of what monster has what feat when.
@Osw,
Coordinated Attack: yes it seems a little strong. Maybe it should just apply to attack rolls, that seems to imply an increased combat ability. Maybe that is thematic enough.
Imparted knowledge: it was intended to apply only a single feat per summoning, granting it is part of the summoning action, and it lasts (unchanged) until the summoning duration expires.
If 'incorporating the wizard' is the tough part to get around due to the fact that we're making an archetype where the only thing we really want is higher level spells and slightly more spells known the question could be asked another way.... I don't know sorcerers as well as wizards, but I think...
If you made the sorcerer give up most of his weapons, his bloodline, all his bloodline feats powers and spells. Brought his 'can cast per day table' down to that of a wizard or lower... Would that be enough of a trade to justify giving him a first world eidolon and say... twice as many spells known?
Heheheheh. Now I see why I wasnt asking the same question by way of the druid: To get where I'm going by way of druid you'd be asking a druid to change his hit die from 8 to 6, drop 2 skill ranks per level, half his weapons, his natural attacks, his armor proficiency and use of shields, nature bond, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, venom immunity, a thousand faces, timeless body, wild shape, his animal companion, and though keeping his spells per day table, but replacing his spells with 80 known arcane spells... In return for spontaneous casting and a first world eidolon...
Vince, how tied are you to spontaneous casting? Scale of one to ten
How about after a critical instead, still an immediate though.
I'm pretty much a 10 on it. This sticking point for some people is that only sorcerers should be able to cast 9th level spells spontaneiously...
The sorcerer mechanic is PRETTY close to what I'm shooting for. I'm almost shooting for that, but I need more spells known and half as many spells per day... And then perhaps trading away bloodline and bloodline feats skills and powers might be enough to justify a first world eidolon... As far as direct trades go...
The biggest things I want to achieve is a class that knows about 80 spells, casts spontaneously, has an eilodon thats no less powerful than a first world eidolon, and has access to the 7-9th level arcane pool. I'm also particularly more fond of wizards hitting 9th level spells at level 17 than sorcerers hitting it a level later but getting a lot more of them... Again. Spells per day is definitely the first thing on the table by a large margin. Big hit dice, feats, familiars, arcane bonds, bloodlines, and spells per day are the things I don't have much care for and consider 'fluff i'm not interested in'. Spells per day going down from 4s on the wizard table to 3s actually sits pretty well with me.
Thats why I started thinking about my own custom class. I think in a wizards pursuit of being able to cast all spells, the fewer spells per day seems fine, but giving up spontaneous casting was a nerf too far for my tastes.... On the other hand sorcerers being spontaneous is great, but giving up that many number of spells known just to cast more spells per day? Thats a trade too far for me as well. Now they make up for that a little by having a bloodline and a class built around bloodline feats and traits and spells, but I dont really like that whole thing... and I DO like eidolons... Summoners get eidolons, and are spontaneous casters, but once again they've inexplicably traded 'spontaneously casting more spells' with 'not casting high level stuff'... We're back to a trade too far.
There seems to be a prevalence in each of the classes to go to an extreme, or to make a trade I don't care for. A trade to get bloodlines? Give that back. A trade of spontaneous casting for scribe scroll and 4 feats (some people really value and love feats... I personally hate them) and unlimited learning ability? I dont need that... A trade to get animal companions and wildshape and timeless body? I dont care about a lot of these 'perks' and would gladly trade them in for this inexplicably difficult to come by combo of a middle ground... Give me an eidolon but make it more frail. Give me 9th level spontaneous casting but not 'knows only 40 spells and casts 54 per day... How about knows 80 spells and casts 27 per day instead... If I changed all the wizards 4s to 3s thats only 30 spells a day... I'm personally pretty happy with such a trade, But at the same time consider it a pretty significant nerf. And if I can only cast 27 spells per day then why cant those spells go up to level 9?
I've been frustrated by the limitless ways that i'm able to not do exactly what I want... And the seemingly limiteless amount of 'wierd thematic fluff thats piled into a class to take my mind off the fact that no class will get there... So it was time to look at a custom class. The way I see it, MCA is EXACTLY about taking the pieces of a classes you like, tossing out the pieces you dont... and winding up with something that's not 'too powerful'... I don't want to insult the process by calling it 'kitbashing' but thats kinda what it's like. Taking the bits that interest you and using them to replace the bits that dont, and trying to make the final product fit comfortably in the powercurve.
I sort of naturally gravitate to the wizard and cleric because they are the only classes that seem to be willing to trade number of spells per day with number of spells known... But they pursue unlimited variety which isn't really necessary or beneficial in my mind, and, in that trade, nerf for that thing I dont care for (versatility) they go too far with the trade and drop spontaneous casting at the same time? I just cant quite get what I want out of any of these published classes. So its time to step outside the box... Its a brave new world. The challenge is in finding out what's considered a 'fair trade' for what i'm trying to do.
Granted the MCA threads here go one step further and attatches a narrative to those underlying mechanicst. Even if that one step further is often the first step instead of the last step.... At this stage i'm interested in sorting out the 'not too powerful' mechanics of the class more than I am interested in the narrative behind it...
I guess I find the narrative easier... I think that comes from my 2e days. You were a fighter on paper, but you could be a duellist or vampire hunter or myrmidon or pirate... The theme was what the PLAYER brought to the mechanic... How you played the mechanic was the theme... So I can totally see how the build i'm trying to make could be applied to fey as well as undead or anything in between. 3.0 and 3.5 did a great job of subverting that trope by giving out splatbooks full of themes and making interesting mechanics to back those themes up, and pathfinder sort of scaled that back, but maybe too far back? Not enough variations of the mechanics anymore? And thats why we have the MCA!!!
Getting what I actuallly want out of the class mechanically without GM's and players breaking out the pitchforks and calling it munchkin powergaming is much more challenging.
Theres a litmus test in the core book I think that talks about inventing new spells or creating new magic items or something.... It basically says 'if what you're trying to do is so good that everyone will choose it instead of any other thing, then it's too good and you should flush it. The good news for me is that at least cartmanbeck has expressed the opinion that 3 spontaneous spells per level per day with an eidolon with d6 for hit points, 3/4 hit dice and 3/8 BAB might start feelin 'too weak'... It means I'm getting there.
Again sorry for the wall of blather by the way. I have a tendency to keep editing until my 60 minute edit timer is up.
Toaster: I'm really liking what you did with this setup. Much more balanced and still just as tasty (Flavorful)
In regard to Vincent's concept:
Main class Sorcerer (Which gets you the reduced HD and proficiencies Vince was talking about)with reduced spellcasting and schools limited to Conjuration Abjuration and Transmutation (The kind of spells he was going after anyway), drop Bloodlines entirely (And maybe eschew materials) and replace them with Eidolon, with an effective Summoner level of Feralmancer -3 (I guess keeping it as a level 1 eidolon until level 4? Perhaps have the Eidolon progress 3/4 as fast).
This way, even with a 9 level spell progression, that spell progression is fairly limited, and would largely limit the damage output to what damage the eidolon can do hopped up on buff spells.
Edit: You know, now that I think about it, Druids are 9th level spellcasters, in armor, with 3/4 bab, 2 good saves, a ton of class abilities, AND their very own pet. I think getting an Eidolon at -3 Summoner level with fancy arcane spells is a pretty fair deal, when compared to that monstrocity :P
Almost done. I think I'm gonna pause up for the night and finish this in the morning.
Vincent, Wizzy is not going to work for this. Sorcerer it is.
sooooooooooo could I post my next project yet?
Nope, we're still working on your monstrous general. I haven't looked it over yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Been a little busy on my new Artificer class.
@Osw,
Coordinated Attack: yes it seems a little strong. Maybe it should just apply to attack rolls, that seems to imply an increased combat ability. Maybe that is thematic enough.Imparted knowledge: it was intended to apply only a single feat per summoning, granting it is part of the summoning action, and it lasts (unchanged) until the summoning duration expires.
please note the above errata.
so decided to incorporate the adjustments to help the examination process.
Sometimes kingdoms have to call on unorthodox forces to win conflicts. This in turn gave rise the Monstrous Generals. Gaining pacts with elite groups of monstrous creatures, The Monstrous General leads his terrifying forces into battle, much to the dismay of his foes.
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Summoner
Good Saves: Fort, Will
At first level a Monstrous General may select three skills from the Summoner list and add them to his own list.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Monstrous General is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Summoning Training: You gain a +1 to caster level for using any Summon Monster spell-like ability. This bonus increases +1 for every 4 levels thereafter. This replaces the Bravery Class Feature.
Summon Monster: Starting at 3rd level, a Monstrous General can cast summon monster II as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier (his caster level is equal half his Monstrous General level). He can cast this spell as a standard action. Every 4 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by two spell levels, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster VIII at 17th level). A Monstrous General cannot have more than one summon monster spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster immediately ends. If a Monstrous General has no remaining uses of his Summon Monster Spell-like ability, he gains the fatigued condition until it's replenished. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fulfill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell. This Replaces Armor Training.
Coordinated Attack: Starting at 5th level, all creatures summoned by the Monstrous Summoner gain a +2 Competence Bonus on attack rolls. They must be within 60 feet of the Monstrous General to receive this benefit. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level. This replaces weapon training 1 and 3.
Imparted Methods: Starting at 9th level, the Monstrous General may grant the benefit of one feat he possesses to any creature(s) he summons, They must qualify for the feat. Only a single feat is granted per summoning, though the summoner may select a different feat each time he uses his Summon Monster Class Ability. At 17th level, creatures he summons may treat their hitdice as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. This replaces Weapon Training 2 and 4.
Resilient Stance: At 19th level, so long as his summons are within 30 feet of the Monstrous General, They gain Damage reduction 5/-
War Summoner: At 20th level a Monstrous General may use his spell-like ability as an immediate action Following a successful critical hit.. When he gains a flanking bonus from his summoned creatures, he may increase the flanking bonus by an additional +2. In addition so long as his summoned creatures are within 30 feet of him, The Monstrous General gains Damage Reduction 5/-.
Alright Toaster, here's my comments. I really like this one, it's pretty straight forward and flavorful. Here's my thoughts and tweaks.
I think you should change the name back to Summoner General. Monstrous General feels too forced and specific. But that's just me.
I've made some tweaks that I think are necessary for balance and swaps. Also, I've tweaked your flavor blurp.
Oft times, kingdoms come in conflict with neighbors, invading forces, or even roving mercenary armies in search of fortune and glory. While most rulers have a constant military presence, they must, on occasion, call upon unorthodox forces to win their battles. Thus, such opportunities of for notoriety and military conquest have given birth to a truly remarkable persona, the monstrous general. By establishing an pact with elite groups of monstrous creatures, the monstrous general calmly leads these terrifying forces into the heat of battle, often to the dismay of his foes.
Primary Class: Fighter.
Secondary Class: Summoner.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The monstrous general may select three summoner skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. The monstrous general gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The monstrous general is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Summoner Training (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a monstrous general gains a +1 bonus to his caster level when using his summon monster ability. This bonus increases +1 for every 4 levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Summon Monster (Sp): Starting at 3rd level, a monstrous general can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 7th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases, as shown on Table: Monstrous General. This allows him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster VIII at 19th level). A monstrous general cannot have more than one summon monster spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fulfill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell. When using this ability, the monstrous general’s caster level is equal to 1/2 his monstrous level. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s summon monster ability and replaces armor training and armor mastery.
Coordinated Attack (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a monstrous general can improve the battle prowess of his summoned creatures. As a standard action, the monstrous general can grant all creatures summoned by his summon monster ability that are within 30 feet of him a +1 bonus to attack rolls. The creatures retain this bonus until the end of the summoning. At 9th level and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, up to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. This ability replaces weapon training 1 and weapon training 3.
Imparted Methods (Ex): Starting at 9th level, a monstrous general can choose one feat that he possesses. As a standard action, the monstrous general can grant this feat to all creatures summoned by his summon monster ability within 30 feet of him. The creatures retain the use of this feat until the end of the summoning. These creatures do not need to meet the prerequisites of this feat. The monstrous general can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day at 12th level and for every three levels thereafter. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Resilient Stance (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a monstrous general can impart greater resilience to his summoned creatures. As a swift action, a monstrous general can grant damage reduction 3/— to all creatures summoned by his summon monster ability within 30 feet of him. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
War Summoner (Ex): At 20th level, whenever a monstrous general confirms a critical hit, he can use his summon monster ability as an immediate action. Whenever the monstrous general gains a flanking bonus from his summoned creatures, he can increase that bonus by an additional +2 until the end of the summoning. In addition, the damage reduction gained by his summoned creatures while they are within 30 feet of him increases to 5/—. The monstrous general also gains damage reduction 5/— until the end of the summoning. This ability replaces weapon mastery
Table: Monstrous General
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Bonus feat, summoner training +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Summon monster II
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Coordinated attack
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Bonus feat, summoner training +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Summon monster III
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Imparted methods
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, summoner training +3
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Summon monster V
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Bonus feat, summoner training +4
15th +15/+10/+15 +9 +5 +9 Summon monster VI
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Resilient stance
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat, summoner training +5
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Summon monster VIII
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Bonus feat, war summoner
Raider, where's the Feymage?
nice Elghinn, looks much neater. you know what summoner general sounds fine.
Glad you like it. I really like the concept and I think it would do well in playtesting.
Yep - I forgot to mention 30' seemed better than 60' for Imparted Methods. Nice streamline El.
Since its more of a sorcerer with an eidolon and not so much specifically a fey version of it... Perhaps 'Bonded/Bonding Sorcerer' or 'Soulbound Sorcerer'... Sounds better in russian... 'Svyazi Kolduna'
Svee-AH-zee KOL-du-na....
Not bad... Hmmmm.
Sorry, kind of a rough running-around day/night, I'll post it up when I get back home from things tomorrow.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Alright Toaster, here's my comments. I really like this one, it's pretty straight forward and flavorful. Here's my thoughts and tweaks.
I think you should change the name back to Summoner General. Monstrous General feels too forced and specific. But that's just me.
I've made some tweaks that I think are necessary for balance and swaps. Also, I've tweaked your flavor blurp.
** spoiler omitted **...
A couple suggested changes to your changes:
Summon Monster: If he's only using summon monster I at 3rd level, that's pretty darn weak. I think starting him off with smII instead would be more useful, and still not OP. Then continue your progression as you have it.
Imparted Methods: There are way too many feats out there to just allow any feat with no prereqs to be transferred to a bunch of summoned creatures. This should be a Combat or Teamwork feat, and possibly a specific list.
@Cartmanbeck
1) Sorry the write up shopuld have said MS II, it's in the table, forgot to fix it in the writeup.
2) I think a list of Feats would be good. Can't just give all them Greater Vital Strike or Styunning Critical I suppose. :D
Who wants to tackle the list? This should probably be basic feats limited to the Combat and Teamwork feats.
@Cartmanbeck
1) Sorry the write up shopuld have said MS II, it's in the table, forgot to fix it in the writeup.
2) I think a list of Feats would be good. Can't just give all them Greater Vital Strike or Styunning Critical I suppose. :D
Who wants to tackle the list? This should probably be basic feats limited to the Combat and Teamwork feats.
wouldn't it be simpler to just make them have to meet the prerequisites?
You'd think so, but since every monster you summon is different (including feats), there would rarely be a monster that meets the prerequisites, since so many have level, BAB or other feats as prerequ's. The odds of the Summoner General's feat being met are quite low, making the ability rather useless. I think a list would be better, then it avoids the prerequ issues I see will arise. I don't think any player would want to have to line up feat selection fo their monsters with that of their Summoner Genreal. That's too time consuming. A nice simple list makes it easier for everyone.
Here's a couple lists.
Combat Feats
Blind-Fight, Bodyguard, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dazzling Display, Deadly Aim, Deadly Finish, Devastating Strike, Flanking Foil, Following Step, Gang Up, Great Cleave, Greater Cleaving Finish, Improved Bull-Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Step Up and Strike, Step Up, Team Up, Two-Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.
Teamwork Feats
Back to Back, Coordinated Charge, Coordinated Defense, Coordinated Maneuvers, Enfilading Fire, Escape Route, Look Out, Outflank, Pack Attack, Shake It Off, Swap Places, Target of Opportunity.
Thoughts? Additions? Removals? I'm sure there should be some removed. Tried to give a broad list, but not too powerful.
What about iron will, lightning reflexes, great fortitude, and toughness? Other than that, looks pretty good to me, though i am not sure i see the point of improved twf. Seeing its effect only grants one additional attack, it essentially has the same effect as twf.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
What about iron will, lightning reflexes, great fortitude, and toughness? Other than that, looks pretty good to me, though i am not sure i see the point of improved twf. Seeing its effect only grants one additional attack, it essentially has the same effect as twf.
Ones I would drop: Cleaving Finish, Great Cleave, Greater Cleaving Finish, Improved TWF. I also agree about adding Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, and Toughness.
I'm just happy Precise Strike isn't on that list... That could get messy fast...
I'm just happy Precise Strike isn't on that list... That could get messy fast...
yeah, im not sure a t-rex necessarily needs it.
Sooooooooo, any chance i can start on the Intellectual Ascetic yet? Hint, i plan to make to make adding quingong essentially pointless for the archetype.
DA NANANANA NA NA FEY MAAAGE
Feymage
Flavor Blurb- Should involve something along the lines of Fey using arcane magic, not the druidic as is commonly assumed (misconception to clear up while I'm on this, actually, most fey learn and utilize arcane. Have you ever even HEARD of a fairy druid, besides Nymphs and Dryads?)
HD/BAB- d6/half
Good Will
Level: | Special:
1 | Cantrips, Fey Eidolon, Bloodline
2 | Fey Catch
3 | Arcane Knowledge
4 | Shield Ally
5 | Bloodline Power
6 | Arcane Knowledge
7 |
8 | Arcane Knowledge
9 |
10 | Arcane Knowledge, Bloodline Power
11 |
12 | Arcane Knowledge
13 |
14 | Arcane Knowledge
15 | Bloodline Power
16 | Arcane Knowledge
17 |
18 | Arcane Knowledge
19 |
20 | Arcane Knowledge, Bloodline Power
Spellcasting: As Summoner
Bloodline- Arcana at first, Power at fifth, tenth, fifteenth, twentieth (Never recieves final power) - Replaces Summon Monster
Arcane Knowledge- At every even level, the feymage may learn a spell from the sorcerer/wizard list of their choice and add it to their spells known.
Fey Catch- A number of times per day equal to 3+Cha modifier, the Feymage may choose to send his Fey Eidolon to gather him a new spell known. This spell may be from the summoner or sorcerer/wizard list, and he retains the knowledge for one hour. Alternatively, it can be from the cleric or druid spell lists- but such spells have a level two higher than normal. This ability takes one minute, during which time the Fey Eidolon is unavailable- or if the spell is from the cleric or druid spell lists, ten minutes.
Fey Eidolon: This is exactly like the summoner’s eidolon ability, except that the fey mage summons an outsider from the First World, inhabited by all types of frolicking spirits and sprites of the fey. As usual, the eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the fey mage, but it always appears as a dryad, nymph, pixie, or satyr. Through evolutions, they often gain insectoid or butterfly wings. An aquatic fey eidolon can be created by adding gills and swim evolutions. To create a true fey model, use the Fey model described in Ultimate Magic.
FEY EIDOLON
A fey eidolon has only one base form that determines its starting size, speed, AC, attacks, and ability scores. All natural attacks are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted (such as in the case of secondary attacks). Unlike a normal eidolon, a fey eidolon is a finesse-based creature and its attacks add the eidolon’s Dexterity modifier to the damage roll (instead of Strength), unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Dexterity modifier. A fey eidolon’s base form is always Small, unless altered by evolutions, and has the usual size adjustments factored into the base form. Alternatively, a fey eidolon can be made Tiny. If the fey eidolon is Tiny, it gains a –4 penalty to its Strength and a –2 bonus to its Constitution. It also takes a +2 bonus to its Dexterity score, a +1 size bonus to its AC and attack rolls, a +2 bonus on its Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on its Stealth skill checks. It also gains a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD scores. Reduce the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d4 becomes 1d3, 1d3 becomes 1d2). If this choice is made, the eidolon can be made Tiny whenever the summoner can change the eidolon’s evolution pool (which causes it to gain these modifiers for changing from Small). This evolution costs 2 points from the fey mage’s evolution pool. The Medium evolution is described below. Increasing the fey eidolon to Large costs twice the normal evolution points. A fey eidolon cannot become Huge.
In Addition, the Fey Eidolon does not increase Max Attacks past three, nor does it gain the strength increases afforded a normal eidolon. It retains the Dexterity increases and abilities of an eidolon.
The fey eidolon is always bipedal and uses the following base form. The fey base form follows all of the normal rules for the eidolon’s base forms.
Fey Base Form (Biped)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 11; Free Evolutions: basic magic, claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), low-light vision.
New Evolutions
The following evolutions can be chosen by the fey mage.
1-Point Evolutions
The following evolution costs 1 point from the fey eidolon’s evolution pool.
Medium (Ex): A fey eidolon grows is size, becoming Medium. The eidolon size changes to Medium and gains a +4 bonus to its Strength and a +2 bonus to its Constitution. It also takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity score, a –1 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a –2 penalty on its Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on its Stealth skill checks. It also gains a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD scores. Increase the damage of all of its attacks by one step (1d3 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d6). If this choice is made, the eidolon can be made Medium whenever the summoner can change the eidolon’s evolution pool (which causes it to gain these modifiers for changing from Small). This evolution cost 3 points from the fey mage’s evolution pool.
Sorry, Elghinn, had to remove all that -shala references. Decided to use Golarion's spheres instead, so First World it is!
Anyway, this sucker has spells known galore and can gather more, but generally doesn't get a huge bump. I wanted to give him some higher level spells-as-lower, but looking at him- he doesn't REALLY need it.
Gotta run, will read comments when I return!
@Toaster: Yeah, I think you can go ahead with your Intellectual Ascetic.
I will remove said feats and add said feat. Can't believe I missed adding those 4 feats. Duhhhh!
@Raider: Whatever. You do what you gotta do.
Does anyone have anything else to change with the elemental blade?
I don't think so. Guys?
Yay, quick overview i plan to borrow the kensai ac mechanic, and swap out the spell-like abilities and spell resistance for a the ability to use low level spells from the wizard list as ki powers.
I like the way elemental blade ended up, personally i plan to try it at some point.
I Guess it is on to either the morph master, a druid/ summoner who creates new magical beasts or the beast knight a druid/ cavalier who can ride enlarged versons of animals (can make his animal companion one size larger than a similar level druid)
@Browman: Go for the Drd/Cav. Beast Knight sounds good for a name.
@ Raider: I realize that Arcane Knowledge is adding a spell to a spontaneous caster's spells known, but looking at other classes abilities, the magus can add up to 14 spells (of the indicated levels) to is book. That's one class feature, and he's a hybrid caster too.
Granted, the fey mage is a spontaneous caster, and the nature of a prepared caster is to have tons of spells to select from, but I'm not sure if 8 abilities is a fair trade. She can still cast only a set number of spells per day. I could see 5-6 abilites. That would then leave the fey mage with room to keep her 3/4 BAB, and to also keep bonded senses and maker's call, which I think are suitable abilities to keep. Swapping abilities for extra spells known is a fair trade, and I don't think she needs to be reduced to 1/2 BAB.
What about this for swaps?
*Transposition, aspect, life bond, twin eidolon = Bloodline, bloodline powers (1/3/9/15)
*Life link = Fey catch
*Summon monster, greater shield ally, merge forms, greater aspect, gate = Arcane knowledge
Then moving some things around would then leave us with this. I think if you put fey catch to 1st level it gives her a way to gain additional random spells from the get go, then have Arcane Knowledge start at 3rd and then every 2 levels thereafter. then we place bloodline powers at 3/9/15/20, skipping the 1st level progression.
1 | Bloodline, cantrips, fey catch, fey eidolon
2 | Bonded senses
3 | Arcane Knowledge, bloodline power
4 | Shield Ally
5 | Arcane Knowledge
6 | Maker’s call
7 | Arcane Knowledge
8 |
9 | Arcane Knowledge, bloodline power
10 |
11 | Arcane Knowledge
12 |
13 | Arcane Knowledge
14 |
15 | Arcane Knowledge, bloodline power
16 |
17 | Arcane Knowledge
18 |
19 | Arcane Knowledge
20 | Bloodline Power
That'll work.
Whaddya think about the eidolon changes? I know you're good on the size, but as far as the str/dex change and all?
Oh, potential capstone alongside the bloodline power- pick two sorc/wiz spells of level 7 or 8, add to 6th level spells known? Thoughts?
Seems to be turning into a pretty complicated journey trying to tackle it from the side of Summoner with a side order of sorcery, and its adding in sorcerer bits that I'm not interested in like bloodline stuff. Might be better to tackle it as a sorcerer and find the sacrifices necessary to work in the greater spell variety and first world eidolon bits instead. Is the size change on the eidolon intended to be a functional mechanical nerf or just a colorful thematic one?
Both! >:D
It seems to be working at a 90 degree angle to what i'm looking for so far. Perhaps that stuff is in there just to serve as bargaining chips later...
You wanted more spells, you wanted a fey eidolon...?