Elghinn: I don't understand the point of,
"A runeforged warrior can scribe detect magic and read magic onto his bonded weapon as 1st-level spells, plus a number of additional 1st-level magus spells equal to his Intelligence modifier. For every two new runeforged levels beyond 5th (7th, 9th, and so on), he can scribe one additional magus spell of any spell level or levels that he can cast into his bonded weapon. A runforged warrior must use the method described above to scribe these spells onto his bonded weapon."
in Rune Scribing. If they have to obtain scrolls and make acids anyway, why even mention it? You already listed the spell limit per spell level later in the paragraph.
And speaking of that paragraph, did you mean to say or? The way it sounds right now is that if you have two 4th level spells scribed, you have no space for anything else.
Yup, that's gone. Tries to make things too specific but in the process added in redundancies and unnecessaries. Let's go with this.
On a related topic, just how many "personal" and "touch" spells on the magus spell list are there?
A couple of comments here are making me think it might be good to do a decidedly non-gish fighter/arcane archetype; I think I'll go for it.
It may not be fighter main or wizard/sorc sub, but I think I can whip up something interesting if I play off the utility, rather than combat use, of arcane magic.
I'm thinking to use something like Grit and the old 'cantrip only' mage Dave once played in KoDT for early-level concepting...
Nice one Raider. Looking forward to it.
The Resonant Warrior was a good offering towards that end, IMO. An inspiring battle leader, felling foes and inspiring allies. I would have given home a good fort/ will though.
How about a ranger/ witch who gives up favored terrain and spells for hexes and such. He would be a very old school superstitious type, who has a knack for curses and ancient remedies and cures (some buff hexes). You could do pretty much the same with oracle mysteries.
Or (and this may seem weird) an arcane ninja who's 0lvl spells (fueled from ki) get stronger. Imagine a Mage hand spell that has comparable power to telekinesis or a "Bigsby" spell. Or being able to dispell deeper darkness with a 0 lvl light spell. I toyed around with this concept before. It would require some opposed spell craft checks or burn a few extra ki, but it's an Idea for you. I guess it doesn't even have to be ninja.
Anyway, just some thoughts for a non Gish, Gish.
Here's my cleaned up Arcane Venator. It's a pretty good one toaster. As much I wanted to keep the whole "Superstitious" rage power effect in the Disdain Arcane ability, a +7 bonus is pretty high, especially for a constant ability. Remember, the barbarian only gets it while raging. So, I felt capping it at +4 was more than sufficient for the single ability swap. I also replaces third judgment with Arcane Repression, since you never said what ability it replaced.
While most churches feel secure in their standing in the world, a great many of them recognize the threat of arcane magic. Thus, the Society of Arcane Venators was born. The primary purpose of this organization is to serve as watchdogs over those who wield arcane might. In part, an arcane venator’s duty is to keep a watchful eye over arcane practitioners, counteract any overreaching of their power as a group or individually, and prevent them from seizing worshipers of the divine. *Note: In the Golarion Setting, the Society of Arcane Venators makes a perfect counter-organization to the Razmiran Priesthood.
Primary Class: Inquisitor.
Secondary Class: Wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The arcane venator may select three wizard skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal inquisitor class skills. The arcane venator gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The arcane venator is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, longbow, repeating crossbow, shortbow, and her deity’s favored weapon. She is also proficient with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Arcane School (Su): At 1st level, an arcane venator chooses a single school of arcane magic in an attempt to better understand the threat posed by arcane spellcasters. This functions as the wizard class feature of the same name. This ability replaces judgment.
Arcane Lore (Ex): At 1st level, an arcane venator adds her Wisdom modifier to all Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft skill checks in addition to her Intelligence modifier. This ability replaces monster lore.
Domain: An arcane venator must choose either the Knowledge or Magic domain, even if her deity does not grant those domains. Alternatively, she may choose the Spellkiller inquisition in place of one of the two domains. This ability modifies the domain class feature.
Detect Magic (Sp): At will, an arcane venator can use detect magic, as the spell. An arcane venator can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is magical, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the arcane venator does not detect magic in any other object or individual within range.
Arcane Bane (Su): This is exactly like the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that the bane special weapon ability property applies only to creatures that can uses arcane spells and spell-like abilities, including those with levels in the an arcane spellcasting class (alchemist, bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, witch, or wizard).
Disdain Arcane (Ex): At 8th level, an arcane venator gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities used by arcane spellcasters. This ability replaces second judgment.
Greater Arcane Bane (Su): This is exactly like the inquisitor’s ability of the same name, except that the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures that can uses arcane spells and spell-like abilities increases to 4d6.
Arcane Repression (Sp): At 16th level, an arcane venator can use antimagic field as a spell-like ability once per day. Any spells or effects based on divine magic remains unaffected by this ability. This ability replaces third judgment.
Magic Slayer (Ex): At 17th level, an arcane venator gains Disruptive and Spellbreaker as bonus feats. The penalty granted by the Disruptive feat increases to +6 and the arcane venator gains a +2 to hit and damage on any attacks of opportunity granted by Spellbreaker feat. This ability replaces slayer.
Arcane Aspect (Su): At 20th level, whenever an arcane venator applies a metamagic feat to a spell from his arcane school, she can reduce the spell’s effective level by 1 when determining what level spell slot to prepare the spell in. This ability cannot lower the required spell slot below that of the spell’s original level. In addition, whenever an arcane venator successfully makes a saving throw against an arcane spell, he gains a morale bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the level of that spell against the caster of the spell until the beginning of his next turn. This ability replaces true judgment.
Table: Arcane Venator
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Arcane lore, arcane school, domain, orisons, stern gaze 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Cunning initiative, detect magic, track 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Solo tactics, teamwork feat 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Arcane bane, discern lies 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Teamwork feat 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Disdain arcane 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Teamwork feat 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Stalwart 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Greater arcane bane, teamwork feat 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Exploit weakness 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Teamwork feat 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Arcane repression 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Magic slayer 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Teamwork feat 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Arcane aspect 5 5 5 5 5 5
Nice, very impressive.
Will post my revisions day after tomorrow, though i wanted to thank you guys for being so kind and respectful with your criticism. I was nervous because the venator was my first real archetype i put together, so i was admittedly quite nervous. Thankfully you guys are great, and are making this a fun experience. Again I thank you guys.
No worries +5! We're here to help. This is a feedback feedback-loop after all - bein open to critique and difference of opinion is key hereabouts. I might have my own bias/personal likes and dislikes, but I still offer feedback on ideas presented out of passion with as much sincerity and objectivity as I can muster.
@Elghinn: Re Arcane Venator writeup: There are dead levels at 4,7,10 and 13 - (these obviously correspond to the lost extra judgments/day due to Judgment being swapped out) - there is also no swap described for Detect Magic. Are these two items related?
Raidur: A fighter that gains the Conjuration [Teleportation] arcane school, or gains abilities that mirror that school, would be pretty sweet. Like I was talking about earlier, a Teleportation+Haste warrior would be pretty kickass.
Elghinn: You also forgot to write in that the Runeforged Warrior has a caster level equal to his class level -4 (Or -3 if you want it to be closer to ranger/paladin)
OSW: Well, those levels aren't totally dead. They do gain a new spell level at each of those points.
Detect magic replaces detect alignment. As for extra judgements, what Iorthol said.
I'm actually thinking of utilizing the 'swift action' route.
Imagine a fighter of around... oh, say, 6th level who has the ability to use four select cantrips of his choice, at will. He can spend a swift action to Arcane Strike (for damage), give himself SR 11 until the start of his next turn (defense), or to grant himself a +4 on acrobatics or bluff until the start of his next turn. He'd be able to use any combination of these abilities, with a total use of ~8 a day.
However, he'd lose armor and weapon training, bravery, and feats at levels divisible at 6th. (6, 12, 18).
He'll gain no spells beyond those cantrips, but he will use magic items as a caster of half his level.
Thoughts? Far enough away from the classic 'gish' while still feeling 'mage-warrior'?
Those are... Really minor bonuses to get in exchange for all those fighter abilities. SR 11 is practically useless aside from blocking your ability to use potions and wands on yourself, and a bluff/acro bonus, I can't see being very useful.
It sounds like you're turning this back into a 3.5 fighter and replacing 3 of their bonus feats for those feats that granted spell like abilities.
Yes, it goes up. Why else would I declare a specific level to consider before putting any numerical bonuses o_O?
Also, those are example abilities. There'll be a list of 'em made, including some that have these as prerequisites- and some that just copy current spells, like Wreath of Daggers.
I don't know? Got a little hung up on the cantrips statement before and assumed these abilities weren't scaling. 'cause scaling is something cantrips rarely do.
Still, that's a pretty extensive archetype to replace 14 class abilities.
On the flip side I do like the spell resistance shield thing. I've always been a fan of the Mage Slayer who's immune to magic whether they like it or not.
*Shrugs* I just don't see where the build is going yet. Your example/summary were not enough to communicate it well enough to me, personally.
Re: This -
OSW: Well, those levels aren't totally dead. They do gain a new spell level at each of those points.
Tell that to the Inquisitor who lost getting something other than spells (i.e. more uses of judgment) for... an arcane school. And all the arcane schools give different powers at difderent level points - a couple at first level then a "biggie" later - Abjuration at 6th, most others at 8th. I dunno - I'd still be wanting to look at this again:
So she's also getting (according to the d20PFSRD's Arcane School entry) "an additional spell slot of each spell level (she) can cast, from first on up." Elghinn's writeup still hasn't specified if these are divine versions or arcane. And if they are arcane, then that kinda doesn't fly with the Disdain Arcane ability.
So my initial concern may be unfounded - they aren't dead levels if she's getting the bonus spells from arcane school. But there's a new issue. So let's work it out.
@ Raiderrpg - sounds interesting and well away from a gish. I await more exploration of the concept before I'll consider smashing it to bits. ;)
I like the skill focus and the scaling cantrips. The Arcane Strike stuff feels magusy, but what are you gonna do...
The intent was to grant spells, but as divine.
Who's working on the Shadow Magus?
I have interest in that concept and would like to see it come to fruition, and to help it along if help would help :3
The intent was to grant spells, but as divine.
Well then the wording of this:
Arcane School (Su): At 1st level, an arcane venator chooses a single school of arcane magic in an attempt to better understand the threat posed by arcane spellcasters. This functions as the wizard class feature of the same name. This ability replaces judgment.
needs to change to reflect that.
Here's my suggestion - something like this:
Arcane School (Su): At 1st level, an arcane venator chooses a single school of arcane magic -. This functions as the wizard class feature of the same name. This ability replaces judgment.
Would we also need to specify some different divine source for (Su) and (Sp) abilities bestowed by the Arcane School?
That makes me think about using the gestalt mechanic, but instead of choosing the best of each world, instead choosing the worst wherever possible and still end up with the kind of character that appeals to me personally.
Apparenty that's what the MCA is all about, so I've been invited to throw my hat in the ring... Be kind. I'm new.
Here's what I've got...
6 hit die.
No alignment restrictions
Summoner class skills
Wizard weapons
Wizard armor
Doesnt prepare spells
Uses charisma attribute
Cannot add spells to spells known through reading spellbooks or scrolls
Spells per day matches the wizard table
Unique spell list that is half the size of even the summoner's list but more funky.
No feats... Use the summoner's advancement list
Meaning the eidolon instead
But make it first world summoner only. Optional evolutionist... No master summoner or synthesist.
No free scribe scroll
No arcane focus or familiar
Conjuration school archetype
Half bab from the Wizard
The tricky part is the spells then. In terms of number of spells known, summoner at its best will only know maybe a smidge more than 40 spells (2 spells per level + attribute bonuses, where a wizard can learn ALL of them... I need more like 80 spells known... Less than wizard but more than summoner.
The list of spells to choose from on a purely 'number of choices' level would be bigger than summoner but of course if I created a new list of only the 80 spells that I care about and call it the new 'class list' like the published summoner does, thats actually a much smaller list than even the summoner list (by half!)... So thats tricky.
Technically it kinda means i'm a conjuration school wizard who's giving up my scribe scroll, 4 more feats, arcane focus or familiar, the giant pile of skillpoints that comes from being int based, removing my ability to learn spells from scrolls or other people's spellbooks, reducing the ability to know an infinite number of spells down to just 80 tops, and in exchange I get a first world evolutionist eidolon and not having to choose which spells to memorize each day. Is that a fair trade?
Or it means i'm a first world evolutionist summoner who's going from 8 hit die to 6, giving up light armor, shield, most weapons, more spells per day in the lower levels, half as many spells to choose from, going from 3/4 bab to half bab, and in exchange although i'm not getting the infinite list of spells to choose from or the ability to learn them from books, i'm getting to cast a few spells from level 7-9 that I didn't have access to before, and ultimately twice as many options for the lower levels spells as I had before, just half less often per day, and the conjuration school archetype. Fair trade?
The question is... How does it sound to others... At the end of the day it's not a gestalt class. Its a custom built single class that, like gishes, does a little bit of one job and a little bit of another... Its meant so that every advantage it takes from one class gives it a disadvantage as well. As a player or a gm does this 'custom class' seem overpowered for a single class campaign? For a gestalt campaign? Is it too nerfed? Will people see this party member as being 'not useful enough?' "Campaign breakingly out of control?" Not being a fan of the fact that summoners cant cast higher levels spells and can only know as many as 40ish in their entire life is considered the 'main fix' i'm going for..., wizards not having eidolons might be another way to phrase it..., but are the sacrifices in the build enough to compensate for the added power? Do they come close? What more would you do to get there? I guess that's what MCA is all about.
Ah yes... And since I wasn't aware of the MCA before today and was just tossing this idea around... I haven't thought of a name for the class...
@ Raider: I have a list of 0 lvl spells that can scale in power from a dead project I was working on. It has the exact flavor and abilities that you are describing.
Here is where you can find it. I would consider the imp arcane strike ability as a replacement for weapon training.
Sorry for the mess on that thread, I hope you can salvage some mechanics from it. I am really interested to see what you come up with there.
Nice one Vincent! (I've made an edit to my post on your thread with a link to our creation guidelines.)
Are you wanting this to definitely be a conjuration school wizard? Coz that's fine, we just need to get the parameters straight. And of course, conjuration makes complete sense..... :P (Mind whirs thinking about Necromantic Wizard Secondary with Summoner Primary... - didn't cartmanbeck do a Bone summoner? - runs off to check wiki complete list)
I have a list of 0 lvl spells that can scale in power from a dead project I was working on. It has the exact flavor and abilities that you are describing.
Here is where you can find it. I would consider the imp arcane strike ability as a replacement for weapon training.
Yo Byrd, are you referring to Raider's scaling cantrips post?
[EDIT] Seems you are. Ok. Just use the REPLY button to quote the post you are referring too. Saves the confusion... ;)
And yes, that does seems a bit like Raider's idea...[/EDIT]
I have a list of 0 lvl spells that can scale in power from a dead project I was working on. It has the exact flavor and abilities that you are describing.
Here is where you can find it. I would consider the imp arcane strike ability as a replacement for weapon training.
Yo Byrd, are you referring to Raider's scaling cantrips post?
[EDIT] Seems you are. Ok. Just use the REPLY button to quote the post you are referring too. Saves the confusion... ;)
And yes, that does seems a bit like Raider's idea...[/EDIT]
LOL, I'm a hot mess, I know. I frequent the "edit" button when I re-read my posts and they don't make sense.
Uh, guys, the cantrips don't scale.
I'm talking as a replacement for bravery at first level, he gets cantrips. The actual cantrips ability, a few slots for'em.
And then he gets actual abilities based on a small pool. As well as, with the way I'm writing, some scaling benefits based on his int picked from a list.
Who's working on the Shadow Magus?
I have interest in that concept and would like to see it come to fruition, and to help it along if help would help :3
It's done, just hasn't gone through the MCP critique process yet, nor have we got it up on the wiki yet either. Been a bit busy with the pdfs, etc. It was an MCA proposed by Old Man Landers in the previous thread.
So she's also getting (according to the d20PFSRD's Arcane School entry) "an additional spell slot of each spell level (she) can cast, from first on up." Elghinn's writeup still hasn't specified if these are divine versions or arcane. And if they are arcane, then that kinda doesn't fly with the Disdain Arcane ability.
So my initial concern may be unfounded - they aren't dead levels if she's getting the bonus spells from arcane school. But there's a new issue. So let's work it out.
Remember OSW, ther has been no change to the MCAs primary spellcasting ability, otherwise it would have said there was. Thus, she's still casting as an Inquisitor = divine. I suppoose we could specify in the Arcane school writeup.
How's this.
Arcane School (Su): At 1st level, an arcane venator chooses a single school of arcane magic in an attempt to better understand the threat posed by arcane spellcasters. All spells and abilities gained from her arcane school are divine in nature, not arcane. This ability otherwise functions as the wizard class feature of the same name and replaces judgment.
Vincent- welcome to the thread! Don't be shy, we've seen some of the worst and some of the best, and all are welcome if they're willing to work and learn and teach. >3
Be warned, we've done this process a LOT, so we may have a lot to say.
I'mma think on the ideas you have and see what I can do- as our primary spellcaster, I think this one's a job for me to step in and help guide you on. With that said- Elghinn! Give us two some flavor concepting?
Re: Arcane Venator: Sorry El, I like my version better. The way you still have it, he's attempting to understand them. In my writeup he does understand them, and has the techniques to prove it... Probably six of one or half a dozen of the other... ;P
And I think the distinction of divine spells for the arcane list is extremely important to keep and make clear. It isn't clear to me that just because the Primary class spellcasting ability hasn't changed/have a new entry, that a new ability that references an arcane school that gives bonus arcane spells should treat said spells as divine.
I've checked the MCA webpage and saw another Summoner/wizard called the clockwork mage... I guess in this case my target is similar... This class is sort of based on trying to convert my current character in a gestalt campaign into a nongestalt... He's a first world evolutionist summoner with conjurer specialist wizard archetype... His eidolon is emulating a nymph, going the claws only rend/vital strike feat tree route... She's not a major force since she's been built to not be so powerful that the gm veto's the build and so she doesnt outshine fighters... I think if I'd been making some sort of clawbitesting or kali build i'd have been veto'd by now. Keeping her low key has been the key to keeping her in the game. Being interesting and useful out of combat instead of being 'the party's battle buffmonster' has been the key to keeping him fun.
Beast Summoner (also by Elghinn) comes a little closer, but focuses more on keeping the summoner spell table and focuses more on the master summoner multi eidolon kinda thing... Multiple eidolons doesnt sit well with my gm, so my version, if you could call it that, is in getting to the higher level spells instead and keeping the single eidolon.
In the way that the clockwork mage focuses on a clockwork eidolon, I just love the idea of having a temporary large evolution (from the evolution surge spell) applied to a hasted nymph eidolon... Then I think about tossing a tensers transformation (personal spell on her) and before you know it , for a few brief minutes per day, you've kinda got this full bab, giant feral fey... A literal force of nature.
Other than that the class focus at least for the character is utility type stuff. Of course the demiplane stuff and eidolon enhancing and eidolon healing/restoring/evoluting spells are a given for the class i'm trying to make here.
It always struck me as odd that a summoner doesnt get all the conjuration spells. (No secure shelter?)... I guess if you get early access to demiplanes you dont really need stuff like that... But at the lower levels? I just love secure shelter... And of course you open up some of those higher level spells and before you know it you've got an eidolon with frightful aspect or iron body (and for fey to be made into iron, that's IRONic... bad pun) or giant form, monstrous physique, beast shape.... Control weather, Joyful rapture... Some very, I guess you could say nature like/druidic stuff that really fits into this theme...
In the spirit of the existing clockwork mage, I guess i'd call this class the Feral Fey Mage until I find a better name for it.
...A literal force of nature.
Sound's like he's summoning an incarnation of Nature's Wrath!!! I can visualise a huge treanty nymph with angry cries and gnashings of teeth, dragging nature's defilers about and generally running amok. Love it.
Re: Arcane Venator: Sorry El, I like my version better. The way you still have it, he's attempting to understand them. In my writeup he does understand them, and has the techniques to prove it... Probably six of one or half a dozen of the other... ;P
And I think the distinction of divine spells for the arcane list is extremely important to keep and make clear. It isn't clear to me that just because the Primary class spellcasting ability hasn't changed/have a new entry, that a new ability that references an arcane school that gives bonus arcane spells should treat said spells as divine.
I'm easy. How's this?
Arcane School (Su): At 1st level, an arcane venator chooses a single school of arcane magic. She casts spells from this school as divine spells, and are gained through her study and investigation of arcane magic. School powers are likewise drawn from the arcane venator’s divine source. This ability otherwise functions as the wizard class feature of the same name and replaces judgment.
Welcome Vincent. We'll let Raider take yours on, and once he's got it figured he'll post his ideas, revisions, etc.
@Raider: I'll see what I can do about flavor. Needs to be narrowed down a bit though.
@ El - masterful. That'll do it...
Who's working on the Shadow Magus?
I have interest in that concept and would like to see it come to fruition, and to help it along if help would help :3
I just posted the Shadow Magus just for you, Iorthol.
Needs to be narrowed down a bit though.
Thats kinda the trick of it. As I'm currently playing it, its a very specific feral fey build, but when I was postulating the non gestalt or 'MCA' version of it, I think more in terms of how others could use it. I just happened to choose the nymph and nature version due to personal proclivities, but its true the same semantics combined with a more necromantic spell selection would be just as awesome a direction to take it for folks that love that side of things. Even a sort of antithesis to the nature and feral life type thing I'm talking about, the same thing done with a feral death type focus is a good one. Probably the thing I like about eidolons so much. Infinite versatility in terms of creating an 'image' or 'theme' for a class.
The class as i've written it so far was more for the purposes of determining how much is appropriate to give up for it to be reasonable to ask for the dreaded 'no infinite variety of 9th level spells/spontaneous casting' combo... or rather if you have to go with 9th level spells and spontaneous casting like a sorcerer would... about how high is it reasonable for my spells known to go if I just lay waste to all the other class perks like arcane focus or better bab or learning from spellbooks and scrolls. Even making the eidolon a first worlder was originally for the purposes of pulling her powerlevel down and the fact that they gain the fey template just made it fit perfectly into what I'm trying to do with my particular character.
It its original form, the attempt is to get a summoner with access to a few higher level spells and a little more spell variety, and how much trimming to the rest of the class needs to happen to justify it. Gestalting helped me get what I wanted, but teeters on the edge of 'too much power' for my gm's taste... Gestalting it in a way that it takes the lower hit die and the lower spells per day and the lower this and that.... Every bit helps when the focus is on a single eidolon, buffing it and then having enough left over to be utility and interesting the way I regularly play my wizards.
I'm not sure if coming at it from that direction is necessarily simpler than asking the question 'what would i have to give up to add eidolon to the wizard without making it too powerful, but the net effect is the same. I certainly wouldnt try pulling off a master summoner or synthesist version of what i'm putting together here. The idea is more subtlety and flavor than 'optimized annihilation' but a few seconds of hasted 12 foot vital striking rending feral nymph would at least be fun from time to time.
If I were to put a capstone ability on the class I think i'd like the 20th level fey eidolon to get the nymph's blinding beauty bit, but I've only had such thought since I've seen the clockwork mage and summoner/druid builds on the MCA webpage. Using my fey-specific flavor as a class isn't what I was going for initially but i'm enjoying the idea. If the MCA page prefers it to have that more specific focus then I'm not opposed to it. I'm just had set out initially to get a little more casting power and variety into a summoner class, not specifically to make a 'Nymphomancer...' Of course now that i've typed it i'm really liking the sound of Feral Nymphomancer.
Well, let's wait for Raider and see what he comes up with. We try to do flavor before developing the MCA, since that's usually the basis for the main conceptualization, but we've done flavor after creation on numerous occasions.
Kinda going through the MCA master list to see how some of my issues might have been handled before. The character I have now might actually have been based on your Clockwork mage... I think i might have stumbled across it when I was thinking about building my gestalt, before I knew what the MCA's were about... Either that or I figured I'd have more luck talking my gm into a gestalt than a personally built custom class....
Now I have come full circle, heheheheh. The good thing is what i've listed here has undergone actual playtesting up to level 10 so far... I'm getting first hand experience on how it plays out in game as we speak. Not surprising that this build would probably make more sense as a summoner/sorcerer with fey bloodtype... I'm just not a fan of the bloodtype mechanic as much as I am a fan of getting 9th level spells as soon as possible...
I see with Clockwork mage the idea was to stick wtih prepared casting and book learning like a wizard. I figure sorcerer pays for its bloodline mechanic and spontaneous casting and spells per day by having a limited spell selection... Summoner pays for its eidolon and spontanious casting and spells per day ALSO by having a limited spell selection. I'm trying to get some of that spell selection back by trimming a little in other places like the bonded item/familiar/wizard feats/skillpoints/spells per day/[infinite number of spells possible to know] to gain enough leeway to get a slightly larger set of known spells instead of the sorcerer/summoners 'barely enough' and the wizards 'Pokeyspells! Gotta cast 'em all!!!' Theres a happy medium somewhere between knowing nothing/casting 50 spells per day and having infinite variety/sponaneously casting none.... That's what i was originally trying to find. I think all of the current published casting classes have chosen one extreme or the other. I'd like to put together something a little more in the middle.
In trying to do so I need to make maximum consessions so it sort of violates a bunch of MCA guidelines by using the (secondary) wzards bab, hit dice, weapon and armor proficiency, and spell progression... Everything lower except the things I want to make better.
I just posted the Shadow Magus just for you, Iorthol.
Thank you~ <3 I'm flattered~
Does Shadow Jump use a standard action and prevent action after its use like casting Dimension Door? I didn't see specified actions or exceptions and was curious if they were intended.
@Shadow Magus
*Shades of Power allows him to recharge his chakra pool by expending spell slots. It seems thematically appropriate to limit this to spell slots he has used with spells gained from the shadowcasting ability (or similar shadowy/vision inpairing/stealth spells from the magus list). Otherwise there isn't really anything to link the power to do this to "Shades" of power. It would be odd for him to expend burning hands or similar flame/fire spell to power his shadowy chakra pool.
*I'm not even that sure chakra works here... ;)
So lets see if I can get this a little more formalized for now...
Feral Nymphomancer:
Original Concept by Vincent Takeda.
Alignment: Any
Primary Class: Summoner
Secondary Class: Wizard
Hit Dice: d6
Half BAB
Good save is Will
Class Skills: The Feral Nymphomancer's class skills match the Summoner: Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Feral Nymphomancer uses the class skills and skills per level of the summoner. (2+Int).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Feral Nymphomancer is able to use staves and clubs. No armor. No shields. Incurs penalties as a wizard for the use of armor during casting.
Spells: A Feral Nymphomancer gains spells per day per the column on the Feral Nymphomancer (which will be the wizard's) table. Spells per day can be modified by the Charisma attribute. They learn new spells at the rate of 4 per level, which includes the extra spell from being a conjuration specialist. These spells are in addition to the the Summon Nature's Ally and Gate spells that the Feral Nymphomancer gains per the Leveling table. These spells are drawn from the Feral Nymphomancer's spell list. * The attribute upon which their spells is based is charisma. A Feral Nymphomancer must have a charisma score equal to at least 10+the spell level and the DC for saves against those spells is 10+the spell level+the charisma modifier of the caster. The spells are not gained through study and the Feral Nymphomancer is not capable of adding spells to his list of spells known from spellbooks or scrolls. The spells are cast from the list of all currently known spells and are not memorized or prepared in advance. He is however capable of casting arcane spells from scrolls (if the spell is part of the wizards list?)
The spells are instilled (not taught) to him by his First World Eidolon, who lacks the ability to cast the spells on their own, but whose connection to the Feral Nymphomancer 'completes a pattern in the caster who then gains the ability to cast those spells. The eidolon is not required to meet the 10+charisma score requirement in order to complete this boon as they technically do not 'know the spells', and can not ever cast them. They posess the characteristic underpinnings of the spells and imprint those patterns to the Feral Nymphomancer who is then able to complete the pattern for them and cast the spell.
Cantrips: The Feral Nymphomancer knows all cantrips and can use them any number of times per day.
The Feral Nymphomancer gets no arcane focus or familiar, and do not get scribe scroll automatically at first level.
Eidolon: The Feral Nymphomancer begins play with the ability to summon an Eidolon as the standard summoner ability, though the Feral Nymphomancer and his eidolon must use the First World Summoner archetype. At level 3 the first worlder adds the following creatures to his list of allys that can be summoned with the nature's ally spell like ability:
Summon nature's ally 2: Gremlin (jinkin, pugwampi, vexgit)
Summon nature's ally 3: Gremlin (nuglub)
Summon nature's ally 4: Unicorn
Summon nature's ally 5: Pixie, satyr
Summon nature's ally 7: Nymph
Instead of outsider, the eidolon has the fey creature type and extraplanar subtype. It uses d6 instead of d10 for hit dice, BAB is half the eidolon's hit dice. Uses good Reflex and Will saves. It's class skills are acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, fly, know geography, now nature, preception, perform, sense motive, sleight of hand, stealth, swim, and use magic device. It uses low light vision instead of darkvision though it can be granted darkvision with the use of an evolution point. When the eidolon is eligible for DR/alignment, they may choose DR/cold iron instead.
Archetypes: While First World Summoner is required, and the wizards 'conjurer school archetype' is required, and Evolutionist is an option, no other archetypes are possible with the Feral Nymphomancer class. It is still possible to use Wizard's Arcane Discoveries in place of character feats, though the Feral Nymphomancer does not gain the wizard bonus feats at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 that the wizard normally would.
*I'll be working on putting together the Feral Nymphomancer's spell list...
Trying to wrap my head around your whole concept
So, this is a nature summoner at its roots
But is using an arcane school and wizard spell progression?
You should really fill in the part of the class entry where you describe the profession this buddy is goin for.
Edit: Well now that I've read your big ol' walls of text, I see what you're going for now.
I think something you could do for your upper level spell progression could be limiting it to 7th 8th and 9th level spells being conjuration only.
Your spellcasting section is super confusing. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to do with that. I think if you're going for a median between prepared and spontaneous, why not just give the summoner reduced spells per day and increased spells known?
Your section about the eidolon bestowing spells is confusing, but also inspirational for my next suggestion. I think another option for your spellcasting would be...
The Feral Nymphomancer's Eidolon has a wealth of knowledge from their native plane, but no spellcasting power. During a 1 hour ritual that can be performed once per day, the Feral Nymphomancer may prepare a number of spell levels equal to his Feral Nymphomancer level. These spells are treated as prepared spells that take up spell slots from his normal spontaneous spellcasting. These prepared spells are taken from the Summoner spell list, even if they are not on the Feral Nymphomaner's list of spells known.
For example, a 6th level Nymphomancer could prepare a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells that aren't on their list of spells known but are from the summoner spell list.
I know that's overly wordy but I hope you get the point of my suggestion.
@Vincent: Yep, this needs a flavor intro to describe the concept and give an overview so we can understand the participles of mechanics, approach etc.
* I like the completed incomplete pattern of spellcasting but it does need some work for clarity.
* You don't need to specify which Secondary class abilities he doesn't get, (or in fact which Primary class abilities he doesn't get) the progression table pretty much takes care of that.
* Again, it isn't necessary to mention the First World Summoner archetype (this MCA is after all an archetype of it's own) any abilities that are based on that archetype can be referenced however for clarity. Your "Archetypes" section is thus superfluous - this MCA is an archetype and dhould stand on its own merit. As specific as the name is there isn't really much room to move anyway. (See next point)
* Aaach. (cue little person in white suit) "The name, the name!" I can't in all honesty cope with Feral Nymphomancer. For two reasons: one, it's unutterably silly, and two, it's way too specific. Now for your purposes, you can take or leave all our advice - I'm sure you'll get plenty of balance critique from others - here I'm about two things - MCA convention and utility.
We try to make as many broadscale applicable MCAs as we can. Occasionally a hot, super niche idea crops up and we run with it, and that's ok.
I'm not sure this MCA needs to be that specific - I can totally see this guy summon all sorts of nature-spirit looking First World Eidolons.
Really that's up to you. If you want us to take this on board then you'll need to broaden the base concept OR make a really compelling case for it's thematic specificity. Which I admit to having some empathy with, right up to the name! ;) Feral is great. Nymphomancer sounds like some sort of William Gibson/Cyberpunk gynoid molester.
;)
* On the mechanics side -
1: Why is this guy a Wizard Secondary - for better range of conjuration/shelter spells?
2: I'm concerned at the low HD for the Eidolon. Unless you are swapping out something for part of the eidolon's power, I'd leave it.
3: MCA Convention: like any archetype you need to specify what ability replaces, alters or functions as what ability.
Hope that helps! It can be a steep learning curve - I'm in your corner, just need to break a few rough edges.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
So lets see if I can get this a little more formalized for now...
** spoiler omitted **...
Wow a lot happened while I was asleep...
OK so quickly, "Nympho"-mancer needs changed, too many connotations there.
I really don't like the idea of having spontaneous casting but with the Wizard's spells per day. It'll be incredibly weak. I'd rather it be spontaneous with the Sorcerer's spells per day if you're going for a full caster. To go along with that, cantrips need to be limited to a certain number known. You can't have a spontaneous Arcane caster with all cantrips known.
I think when it comes down to it, full casting plus Eidolon is just going to be overpowered no matter what you try to do to weaken it a little. What do you other guys think?
Considering what a nymphomancer is, yes it needs to be changed. We're not R-rated.
Vincent, slow down there and give it a bit of time- I'll have somethin' for ya tonight.
Yeah, if it's a full caster, there is NO room for an eidolon. It'll have to be a hybrid caster. Let's give Radier time and see what he's got tonight. I'm sure he won't disappoint.
The muse has hit and I've got something for this. By the bratwurst of Mystra and the barbeque sauce of Boccob, I think I might actually have just the ticket.
Elghinn, I need something written up quick to make this work. You'll get my email shortly.
Vincent, we won't have room for fullcasting, so let's do the Erudite Bard's trick and allow specific spells as lower level.
You want fey magic, you're getting Fey Magic. Just gimme a little to work out the kinks.
From an in game standpoint this build is exactly what I'm playing right now, but its not a single class, but a gestalt where the worse of 2 options is chosen most of the time in order to justify the 2 things about the gestalt that i'm interested in, which is not 'fey magic' per se (or i'd have gone with summoner druid) but higher level wizard spells like tensers transformation, control weather, joyful rapture, giant form, form of the dragon. The fey eidolon is the class focus per se in terms of 'theme', but the 'MCA' is definitely more about sacrificing spells per day for access to higher spell levels, bringing wizard's high level casting into the mix to make the eidolon really shine than just going more hog wild on the fey part...
Thats not to say that I wouldnt be intrigued at the possibility of tossing Longstrider and speak with animals and aspect of the stag and strongjaw and atavism and ironwood onto the fey summoner schtick. I think that sounds like a fun goal for an MCA from the standpoint of the stuff you guys do here, but its not really the question I set out to answer with my build...
Limiting the 7-9 spells to conjuration only and thats one of the things that subverts the M in multiclass that i'm originally going for. I'm trying to add wizardiness to it, not put the 'theme on rails'... Cartmanbeck prefers the opposite, but I'm even willing to sacrifice spells per day in order to get access to higher level wizard spells. More spells per day was the one thing about this gestalt that REALLY set my gm off as being too powerful. I'm in fact quite happy casting less per day and having more options and making them spontaneous.
Thats the tricky part about bringing this combination to the MCA forum. I have a theme, and while fey eidolon is the theme, replacing the spells per day and raw power of a normal summoner/eidolon with less spells per day and a normally less powerful eidolon in order to open up some higher level casting options is my goal with the build. Making that into a 'theme' in the way that MCA considers that to be a theme is a lot harder than saying 'lets go FEY, which, if I were going for it, would proabably be better served by going summoner/druid.
I do think I got the answer I was looking for initially, which is how much nerfing do you have to do to make unprepared casting and 9th level spells and an eidolon work in a single class, and it sounds like that answer is nope. There is no level of nerfing which is considered enough... So that's the important part for me personally. Without a true gestalt, combining eidolons and 9th level spells seems to be off the table. I'd even go as far as less spells per day than a wizard table, though maybe not so far as i've seen other mca's go with 'reduced casting ability' simply because 'create demiplane greater' is on my list and i'd like it to happen at level 17 as a wizard could... and frightful aspect at 15 as a wizard would. The feeling i get is that the answer to that specific question is 'we could whittle you down to 1 spell per caster level per day and if its a spontaneous 9th level spell then you shouldn't be using an eidolon or vice versa.
The writ of summoner is that the summoner is a partial caster because he devotes more time to making his eidolon rock than he does with his study of spells. The application of that 'theme' was to give him more spells per day and make them lower level spells. I simply prefer the opposite of the application from the APG... I'd prefer less spells per day and not sacrifice the higher level spells, which does fly in the face of most player's preference. If doing so makes the build 'too weak' and thats what makes it undesirable then I LOVE that conslusion. Underpowered is exactly how I want the class to feel. If an eidolon and 9th level spontaneous casting can come off as being 'too weak' the way I wrote it then in the end I accomplished what I set out to.... This may not have been the best place to bring my attempt because it seems a lot harder to come up with the theme for an 'I want a summoner whose eidolon 'helped him achieve 9th level casting at the expense of casting twice as often.... An eidolon that shares my vision that higher level spells less often are better than lower level spells 40 times a day. Even if that means at the end of the day having even LESS spells per day than a wizard, and ESPECIALLY if doing so makes the class seem 'too weak'. If you changed all the 4s on a wizards spells per day to 3s and changed the casting to spontaneous... That would totally work for me. The question is 'would that be enough to make the class not 'too powerful'... If not then how far would you have to go. I'd like to think removing the wizards ability to learn every single spell is a big enough nerf to make that 'a reasonable level of power', since the common idea is that a wizards 'power' is his diversity... I'm willing to sacrifice a lot of that diversity but not so much of it that i'm down to only knowing 40 spells.
Thats sort of a different 'theme' than the Summoner Druid which would make more sense for a Fey Eidolon focus. My character that i'm running now carries that Summoner/Druid 'theme', but i'm using a Summoner/Wizard build, because I guess at this point I've been more interested in getting the high level wizard spells that I like more than I've been concerned with satisfying the feral trope with druid spells like strongjaw, aspect of the stag and atavism, which I agree would be more thematically appropriate if that's the direction MCA's tend to go... I like the sound of that theme, and the spirit of that theme is the character I'm currently playing, its just not the secondary class I was shooting for. I don't disagree that thematically druid secondary works better.
surprise, a day early
Sometimes kingdoms have to call on unorthodox forces to win conflicts. This in turn gave rise the Monstrous Generals. Gaining pacts with elite groups of monstrous creatures, The Monstrous General leads his terrifying forces into battle, much to the dismay of his foes.
Primary Class: Fighter
Secondary Class: Summoner
Good Saves: Fort, Will
At first level a Monstrous General may select three skills from the Summoner list and add them to his own list.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Monstrous General is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Summoning Training: You gain a +1 to caster level for using any Summon Monster spell-like ability. This bonus increases +1 for every 4 levels thereafter. This replaces the Bravery Class Feature.
Summon Monster:Starting at 3rd level, a Monstrous General can cast summon monster II as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier (his caster level is equal half his Monstrous General level). He can cast this spell as a standard action. Every 4 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by two spell levels, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster VIII at 17th level). A Monstrous General cannot have more than one summon monster spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster immediately ends. If a Monstrous General has no remaining uses of his Summon Monster Spell-like ability, he gains the fatigued condition until it's replenished. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fulfill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell. This Replaces Armor Training.
Coordinated Attack: Starting at 5th level, all creatures summoned by the Monstrous Summoner gain a +2 Competence Bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. They must be within 60 feet of the Monstrous General to receive this benefit. This bonus increases to +4 at 13th level. This replaces weapon training 1 and 3.
Imparted Methods: Starting at 9th level, the Monstrous General may grant the benefit of one feat he possesses to any creature(s) he summons, They must qualify for the feat. At 17th level, creatures he summons may treat their hitdice as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. This replaces Weapon Training 2 and 4.
Resilient Stance: At 19th level, so long as his summons are within 30 feet of the Monstrous General, They gain Damage reduction 5/-
War Summoner: At 20th level a Monstrous General may use his spell-like ability as an immediate action. When he gains a flanking bonus from his summoned creatures, he may increase the flanking bonus by an additional +2. In addition so long as his summoned creatures are within 30 feet of him, The Monstrous General gains Damage Reduction 5/-