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In the blog post “Money Changes Everything”, Mr. Dancey revealed an initial design for Pathfinder Online’s cash shop. It is my expectation that this initial design was based on the experience of theme-park MMOs, the pitfalls they have experienced, and the outspoken consensus of theme-park players that has resulted. In this thread, I suggest that the scope of cash shop should be narrowed from that initial design; the distinctively sandbox parts of the game suffer additional hazards from a conventional theme-park cash shop.
Principles
I have played a variety of MMOs over the years, and the presence of a cash shop has affected my perception of them in various detrimental ways. This is the core of my argument: the attitude changes wrought by an ill-implemented cash shop will hurt player attitudes, leading to them having less fun. This is projection based on my own experience; I hope that the developers will consider the possibilities seriously, and decide for themselves the truth or falsehood of them.
(I will use World of Warcraft for most of my examples. Mea culpa.)
1. Meaningful interactions require meaningful identity.
In World of Warcraft, when I queue in the Looking for Dungeon finder, I can be placed in a group of people and have a good chance of success at completing the dungeon. But those people are from other servers, and the chances are that I’ll never see them again. They don’t feel like people. They’re just as temporary as the rest of the dungeon environment. That’s why so many groups go by without so much as a word spoken.
2. Immersive worlds link player identity and character identity.
Some online friends ascend to become real-life friends. But usually, the character identity is a proxy for the personhood of the player. I don’t think of you as “the guy who has a terrible boss and works in IT tech support”; I think of you as “that awesome blacksmith who can make keen swords”. And that’s the point; that’s the role you wanted to play in the first place. That’s why you made that character how you did.
3. Meaningful character identity requires a consistent world.
“If anything can happen, it’s hard to care about what happens.” When World of Warcraft was first released, you would rarely run into a level 60 player (the level cap). When you did, it was awe-inspiring. They would often be surrounded by curious player characters inspecting them and their gear. That’s because it meant a lot- it meant that character was accomplished and powerful. And those are things that are inherently interesting in a game about progress. In contrast, in modern World of Warcraft, level-capped characters are the vast majority. Characters equipped in full “epic” gear are the norm. It’s not like you hate them; it just doesn’t provoke any reaction. The loot may say “epic”, but you as the player know that it’s actually very ordinary.
4. World consistency is broken by exterior commerce.
In a consistent game, when you see someone with an awesome piece of gear, you’re naturally curious. It excites your imagination about the possibilities that lie ahead. But in most games today, I find myself having a different reaction: I shrug. “Probably some microtransaction thing.” The developers need money; and to make money, their products must sell. So they make products people will want to buy. And what will people buy? Powergamers will buy power. But social players? They will buy attention. So the developers make big sparkly things that shower the area in particle effects. And they sell. But I notice in myself that it reduces my enjoyment of the game. I no longer get excited about the possibilities for my own character; I get cynical about the world that my character is living in.
And I don’t stay long.
These issues will affect Pathfinder Online more than most games. The detrimental effects will hit it harder because they compromise things closer to the heart of the game. Put another way, in World of Warcraft I may roll my eyes, but queue for another dungeon- something that will take me away from the offending player and engage me in some excellent theme park content. In Pathfinder Online, this isn’t an option. The nature of the game will drive people closer together. If you get cynical about the world, or annoyed with its players, that’s it. There’s not much left to keep you.
Principles for Cash Shops
0. Cash shop items should not provide power.
This is part of the theme-park consensus; I include it here for completeness.
1. Cash shop items should remain “outside the world”, or “meta-game”, as much as possible.
a. Play time is an obvious example. Everybody understands that you must pay to play. I can also accept trading these on the open market, so that Goblinworks can regulate and tax the gold-seller market, and allow players to try the game before spending too much on it.
b. Additional character slots are another example; it won’t break my suspension of disbelief to see an extra character in the world; because I’ll have no idea whether it’s a first character or a third character.
2. In-world items from the cash shop should NOT be alternatives.
a. Consider a big, sparkly, cash-shop mount. This is an alternative to brown horses, available in game, and unicorns, also available in game (but only with Exotic Animal Taming, requiring months of training). In this case, the sparkly mount devalues all mounts. I will not always know whether a mount is a cash shop mount; so if it is big, sparkly, or “special”, I will assume it is a cash shop item, roll my eyes, and maybe think, “Whatever they have to do to keep the lights on”. If, however, there is no cash shop mount, and I see a unicorn mount, I will say, “WHOA! That’s awesome! I want one! Can I pay that character to train me one? Do I need to start training my character for that proficiency?” I consider the second outcome much more desirable.
b. Consider a character slot which is enabled to use a “special” race. This is not achievable in-game. If I see this character in game, I will say, “Ah, they’re a sylph. I haven’t unlocked the special races yet, so I can’t make one.” It feels more like an expansion. It doesn’t call into question other cosmetic things, because I can clearly separate what is bought with cash and what is earned in-game.
c. Consider a wedding dress item, available at the cash shop. This is the sort of thing that a tailor would reasonably expect to be able to make. But if they are offered on the cash shop, they probably will not be available to tailors. This, then, encroaches on the territory of the crafter in order to expand the territory of the cash shop. By reducing the territory of the crafter, the core appeal of the game is reduced. Since the crafter will probably be the lifeblood of the game and a pillar of community, this will harm the game in the long run.
3. Cash shop items should not provide convenience.
Since the game design, to this point, attributes lots of risk to travel time, and since logistics is being mentioned as a serious player concern, and a source of value leading to price differences, this translates to power. Then, this follows from Rule #0.
A Consistent Cash Shop
What, then, is allowed?
1. Playing the game. This includes skill training time, character slots, etc.
2. Restricted categories. This is whatever Goblinworks is willing to stake out at the beginning as being “cash shop material”. It could include guild creation, “character legacies” like in The Old Republic, etc.
I'm not guaranteeing that any of these things will be good for the game overall; I imagine lots of people would be disappointed to have to pay to charter a company. I merely suggest that it will not break the consistency of the world and harm immersion.
3. Expansion content. This is a combination of 1 and 2; it is game content that simply cannot be accessed without paying. It could also include weekly passes for new dungeons, either developer- or user-made.
One final note: if training time (the PLEX equivalent) will be a tradeable item, I suggest that all cash shop items should be tradeable. It will have no effect on those who wish to buy gold, save perhaps a slightly better exchange rate; however, it will make the game more attractive for free-to-play players, and that may be good for the game in the long run.
Goblin Squad Member
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Very well-presented case. I generally agree with your points. I was especially pleased to see your acknowledgement in point 3 under "A Consistent Cash Shop" that paying to access content like the Emerald Spire super dungeon is reasonable.
The only point I'm unsure about is "convenience" items. It seems to me that it might be reasonable and acceptable to sell low-level resources in the Cash Shop. I'm still trying to think through the implications.
While all good points could I suggest we stick to all points keeping to the already existing thread as it saves duplicating answers to points such as Nihimons which I replied to already in the ITT crowdforging the cashshop thread
The only point I'm unsure about is "convenience" items. It seems to me that it might be reasonable and acceptable to sell low-level resources in the Cash Shop. I'm still trying to think through the implications.
It seems to me that selling low-level resources causes the same problems as selling other resources; it's just that the impact is felt mostly by the low-level players.
If the cash shop sold a crate of copper ore, for example, people who buy ore off the cash shop will not need to buy it from other players. This depresses the value of copper ore on the open market; this makes mining copper less profitable, or maybe totally unprofitable. This makes it harder for someone to just be a miner. They'd have to subsidize the costs of those early parts of their development somehow. (This assumes that one will have to get copper as part of the achievement to unlock higher mining skills.)
Admittedly, the currently planned XP system isn't as bad as a typical MMO. You don't need to mine copper ore for the XP, only for the achievement/merit badge. If you're trying to be a dedicated miner, your mining progress will probably be limited by XP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the cash shop sold a crate of copper ore, for example, people who buy ore off the cash shop will not need to buy it from other players. This depresses the value of copper ore on the open market...
I see three likely cases why a player would choose to buy Copper Ore from the Cash Shop instead of on the Open Market:
1. There is insufficient quantity;
2. The price is "too high" (according to the buyer);
3. The risk (of transportation or of gathering) is too high (again, according to the buyer).
Especially with regard to low-level "starter" resources, it seems to me that it might be appropriate to allow players to bypass the market in order to ensure they aren't priced out of that first tier of advancement entirely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If low lvl items can be obtained from other players, then I would not want to see them in the cash shop. Why? Because it reduces the amount of interaction between veteran players and newbies.
High availability commodity items are unlikely to produce much player interaction either way. New players will either gather it from the smaller nodes that don't require intensive camps, or will purchase it from the local auction house.
It seems like our guesses about availability of commodity items, market interactions between newbies and veterans, pricing, etc., are based on information we don't have yet.
If copper can be harvested solo, then a high price can simply entice new players to get out there and harvest. If it requires a party, we probably shouldn't assume newbies will instantly be able to organize that expedition.
If copper is used at all levels, from low to high (like tritium in EVE Online), then Elorebaen's concern about market interaction between veteran and new players is justified. If it's something that nobody uses after training level 2 blacksmithing (or whatever), then there wouldn't be much interaction either way.
If the market is global and instant, like World of Warcraft's auction house, we can assume that newbies will be able to use it proficiently to sell their own copper. But if it's hex-by-hex, then newbies may not be able to safely travel around to sell their own goods, and that may done by reselling merchants.
These are all good things to think about, though.
One thing I can imagine resulting from selling low-level crafting materials is a little market distortion resulting from increased competition: harvesters have their revenues decreased because they're competing with the cash shop, and crafters have their costs decreased. That could result in encouraging people into crafting early on, and discouraging people away from harvesting. That might have long-term effects on how many people harvest or craft at high levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems like our guesses about availability of commodity items, market interactions between newbies and veterans, pricing, etc., are based on information we don't have yet.
We actually do have answers to most of your questions.
If copper can be harvested solo, then a high price can simply entice new players to get out there and harvest. If it requires a party, we probably shouldn't assume newbies will instantly be able to organize that expedition.
There will be both traditional harvesting nodes that you walk up to and mine for a bit of a resource, and larger sites where you can locate a camp to produce a larger amount over time, but which must be defended.
•Harvesting nodes will appear throughout the world, and players can interact with them using the correct profession skills to acquire a small number of components. For some nodes, this may require the player to have a particular harvesting tool. These are very similar to the way harvesting is handled in other MMOs. These nodes actually draw their resources from the hex's current chance to generate supply (e.g., a hex that is very likely to create iron ore mines is also more likely to spawn iron ore harvesting nodes).
•Gathering nodes will often appear in hexes. These are very large sources of material (mines, stands of trees, magical essence junctures, etc.). The player must place a gathering kit of the correct type near the node. This spawns a storage object and some additional art to indicate that the node is actively undergoing gathering. Over time, the storage fills up with components that can be removed and carted off, and the total available components in the hex is reduced.
◦Meanwhile, creatures are drawn to the gathering operation (both spawning new attackers and drawing in nearby existing creatures); these are usually hostile, but may sometimes be allies if you have the right alliance ratings for the escalation cycle going on in the hex. These creatures will generally try to attack players in the area, but will destroy the gathering operation if no one is around, so it may require a lot of organization to try to run multiple gathering operations simultaneously.
◦Gathering kits are crafted by players and generally include peasant levies provided by a settlement (this represents you supervising a large number of unseen NPCs doing most of the work). This is one of the ways a player can get the Heinous flag: levies of enslaved peasants produce a slave labor gathering kit that can mark you Heinous while the operation is in progress.
If copper is used at all levels, from low to high (like tritium in EVE Online), then Elorebaen's concern about market interaction between veteran and new players is justified. If it's something that nobody uses after training level 2 blacksmithing (or whatever), then there wouldn't be much interaction either way.
I do not recall seeing an official stance on this, but I'd asses it as likely that low level materials will still be needed, similar to the EVE model.
If the market is global and instant, like World of Warcraft's auction house, we can assume that newbies will be able to use it proficiently to sell their own copper. But if it's hex-by-hex, then newbies may not be able to safely travel around to sell their own goods, and that may done by reselling merchants.
•There is no instant transport/mail. If someone tries to corner and move a resource, you can kill them and take their stuff.
•There are no global auction houses. You have to buy at a local market and take your purchase where you want it (opening you to ambush that way as well).
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Goblin Squad Member
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3. Meaningful character identity requires a consistent world.“If anything can happen, it’s hard to care about what happens.” When World of Warcraft was first released, you would rarely run into a level 60 player (the level cap). When you did, it was awe-inspiring. They would often be surrounded by curious player characters inspecting them and their gear. That’s because it meant a lot- it meant that character was accomplished and powerful. And those are things that are inherently interesting in a game about progress. In contrast, in modern World of Warcraft, level-capped characters are the vast majority. Characters equipped in full “epic” gear are the norm. It’s not like you hate them; it just doesn’t provoke any reaction. The loot may say “epic”, but you as the player know that it’s actually very ordinary.
The best I can tell there will be no epic loot whatsoever. The best items in the game are to be crafted items, and the power curve is to be exceedingly flat, more flat than we have seen before in an MMO is my understanding. The consequence is that what should be esteemed and admired in a character will be the quality of their play, their presentation, their sociability, and their prowess.
These seem to me remarkably more meaningful than gear.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It seems like our guesses about availability of commodity items, market interactions between newbies and veterans, pricing, etc., are based on information we don't have yet.
If copper can be harvested solo, then a high price can simply entice new players to get out there and harvest. If it requires a party, we probably shouldn't assume newbies will instantly be able to organize that expedition.
If copper is used at all levels, from low to high (like tritium in EVE Online), then Elorebaen's concern about market interaction between veteran and new players is justified. If it's something that nobody uses after training level 2 blacksmithing (or whatever), then there wouldn't be much interaction either way.
If the market is global and instant, like World of Warcraft's auction house, we can assume that newbies will be able to use it proficiently to sell their own copper. But if it's hex-by-hex, then newbies may not be able to safely travel around to sell their own goods, and that may done by reselling merchants.
These are all good things to think about, though.
One thing I can imagine resulting from selling low-level crafting materials is a little market distortion resulting from increased competition: harvesters have their revenues decreased because they're competing with the cash shop, and crafters have their costs decreased. That could result in encouraging people into crafting early on, and discouraging people away from harvesting. That might have long-term effects on how many people harvest or craft at high levels.
The thing about a series of local markets is that if there is a large supply in one area but too few people willing and able to transport it, market prices should fluctuate until people start transporting it; the people transporting it need not be the miners or end-users.
Once it becomes expected that the crafters buy copper in location A, while the miners sell copper in location B (and the teamsters buy at B, transport, and sell at A), then there are three markets: One at B, selling time spent mining for coin; one at A, investing in raw materials to make finished goods, and one on the transportation route.
I will acknowledge that any thing which can replace a material will reduce total demand for it; that's why I suggested that the cash shop replacement should be worse than the worst available gathered material, and the only advantage should be in flexibility and (possibly) availability.
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What does everyone think of a Coin (Not Gold or otherwise, Real world money) faucet in game? Think something along the lines of daily tasks for NPC factions that allows the f2per slowly (I mean something on the likes of 10 cents worth of Coin a day) build up the currency so he can eventually access the same features others can by simply giving GW their credit card.
@Carbon
As most people have asked for a cash shop that only sells cosmetics and convenience and in addition have requested that cosmetics can be freely traded and sold I am not sure I see a need for this.
However if you can make a case I am not totally averse
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does everyone think of a Coin (Not Gold or otherwise, Real world money) faucet in game? Think something along the lines of daily tasks for NPC factions that allows the f2per slowly (I mean something on the likes of 10 cents worth of Coin a day) build up the currency so he can eventually access the same features others can by simply giving GW their credit card.
Effectively, some sort of in-game way to earn the skymetal bits that serve as stored-value currency in the cash shop?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does everyone think of a Coin (Not Gold or otherwise, Real world money) faucet in game? Think something along the lines of daily tasks for NPC factions that allows the f2per slowly (I mean something on the likes of 10 cents worth of Coin a day) build up the currency so he can eventually access the same features others can by simply giving GW their credit card.
It doesn't seem like a good idea to me because it allows Cash Shop items to be bought without Goblinworks making any money.
It seems a much better idea to me to allow virtually everything that can be bought in the Cash Shop to be tradable between players, so that the "f2per" in your example can buy them off the in-game market. That way, Goblinworks makes money on them.
I very much want Goblinworks to make lots of money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a lot I like in the OP. Of interest Wargaming.net are coming up with their version of free-to-play 2.0: coined: FREE-TO-WIN (with esport and marketing emphasis):
Here's basically how the new strategy boils down: Wargaming kicks 'pay-to-win' monetization to the curb
> The company is calling the strategy "free-to-win," and first started testing it in 2012.
> The core basis of "free-to-win" is to remove all payable options that could be viewed as giving a player an advantage in battle.
> Revenue will come from sales of non-advantageous content, such as premium vehicles, personalization options and the like.
> Free-to-win will be applied to all current and future Wargaming titles.
> The move is in part meant to make Wargaming a bigger player in the burgeoning eSports arena.
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Effectively, some sort of in-game way to earn the skymetal bits that serve as stored-value currency in the cash shop?What does everyone think of a Coin (Not Gold or otherwise, Real world money) faucet in game? Think something along the lines of daily tasks for NPC factions that allows the f2per slowly (I mean something on the likes of 10 cents worth of Coin a day) build up the currency so he can eventually access the same features others can by simply giving GW their credit card.
Yes this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Throwing out some arbitrary numbers to clarify.
Lets say 5lbs of Skymetal (SM) cost 9.99$ USD. GW would have discounted levels of Skymetal at double this something like 10lbs of SM for 18.99, etc.
Now lets say the other in game avenues reward SM on measure of ounces of it at a time. For example we engage in a top level escalation event, and players who participate meaningfully towards it are awarded 2 ounces of precious SM. This kind of activity would take a long time to accomplish, and even longer to build up to the stage where the "faucet" can even be turned on.
I think by allowing players to trade and acquire this SM then it will help defeat the idea that you HAVE to buy SM to have a fair shot against those people who can afford it. It goes back to the idea of being "time wealthy" versus "monetary wealth."
I hope that helps clarify.
I think by allowing players to trade and acquire this SM then it will help defeat the idea that you HAVE to buy SM to have a fair shot against those people who can afford it. It goes back to the idea of being "time wealthy" versus "monetary wealth."I hope that helps clarify.
Lotro does indeed do this whereby you can gain turbine points by in game activity
However
If the shop avoids anything but cosmetics and convenience the part quoted above never becomes an issue as a customer with a credit card never has a material advantage they just look a little more stylish.
The other problem with this approach is that you have to find ways to give it to all people and not just those that wish to pve. Frankly I intend avoiding pve as much as I possibly can and concentrading on crafting and trade...why should I have not an equal route to getting these oz's of skymetal? Same will be said by those who wish to only PVP, explore, rp or whatever
What does everyone think of a Coin (Not Gold or otherwise, Real world money) faucet in game? Think something along the lines of daily tasks for NPC factions that allows the f2per slowly (I mean something on the likes of 10 cents worth of Coin a day) build up the currency so he can eventually access the same features others can by simply giving GW their credit card.
One clever thing that Star Wars: The Old Republic is doing is awarding real-money currency (Cartel Coins) for grouping. I like this idea because it is directly rewarding players for what they contribute back to the company. That is: free players are there as content for the subscribers and cash shop players, as an audience. If they're grouping, then they're providing more content; and this is what they're rewarded for.
The amount is miniscule (I have something like 60 cents of real-money currency after constantly grouping for maybe 20 hours). It might also just be enough to make those same free-to-play players look at the shop, get antsy, and purchase real-money currency to speed up their acquisition.
I don't know, in the end, how it's working out for them, but I like the idea.
Returning briefly to the original topic:
There will be both traditional harvesting nodes that you walk up to and mine for a bit of a resource, and larger sites where you can locate a camp to produce a larger amount over time, but which must be defended.
Ah, thanks for the reminder.
I thought a little bit more about selling low-level materials in the cash shop. Before, I was thinking about them selling copper ore, and said that would cause a distortion where early mining is discouraged and early crafting (with copper) is encouraged.
But I really overlooked the more likely possibility that they'd sell all kinds of low-level stuff in the store. (This would work well with the "generic crafting material" DeciusBrutus mentioned, a la Ryzom.) Not only would they sell copper ingots, but they'd also sell a low-level mining pick. This would reduce the blacksmith's early dependency on the miner (because they could buy from the cash shop); but for the same reason, it would reduce the miner's dependency on blacksmiths (because they wouldn't have to ask around to buy a pick).
This wouldn't cause the lopsided distortion of only selling copper. It would reduce the economic significance of low-level crafting and harvesting, as a whole; but it those low levels would become a "starter" period where you can easily try out crafting skills and find out whether they were something you wanted to do long-term.
It's possible the gameplay benefits of this accessibility would outweigh the loss of immersion and economic significance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's possible the gameplay benefits of this accessibility would outweigh the loss of immersion and economic significance.
Excpet for the person who was trying to make a living early on by selling low level mats, such as copper, to the beginning smiths. Though I understand the convenience of selling low level materials in the cash shop, I do not like players having to compete with the cash shop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's possible the gameplay benefits of this accessibility would outweigh the loss of immersion and economic significance.Excpet for the person who was trying to make a living early on by selling low level mats, such as copper, to the beginning smiths. Though I understand the convenience of selling low level materials in the cash shop, I do not like players having to compete with the cash shop.
Yes, but realistically, how long are they going to be in the role of trying to profit from mats that are both low tier (such as copper) and *also* low quality (which is determined by the min(Node, Skill))? Presumably for a short while their skill will be the limiter, but they should move through this period fast enough, since advancement is not tied to repetitious grinding. If the items being sold in the store are starter grade (by which, I mean low tier and low quality), the players will rapidly outgrow them. They will serve primarily to allow new characters to get a start in their career path, rather than having to wait until they've managed to establish their niche in the game's marketplace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This just smacks of convenience being more important than in-game activity and interaction (locating the ore, mining the ore, transporting the ore, marketing the ore, etc.). If we aren't having to actually grind skills, then what's the rush? Why the hurry to jump-start how quickly players have access to these materials? If you don't have the coin to buy materials on the market, train the skill and go get it.
"...rather than having to wait to establish their niche in the game's market."
But why are we looking for ways to fast-track players past needing to get involved in the game enough to develop a niche in that market? I'm not advocating drudgery, but providing a degree of convenience such that you can race through a tier of mats with no more effort than a credit card swipe seems the kind of accelerated progression more common to theme park games.
No matter how short a span that you find these mats useful, their acquisition should involve in-game action and interaction without robbing potential suppliers of even one sale.
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Yeah, I have to vote with the "no resources in the cash shop" people.
Allowing people to magically summon resources that other people have to spend LOTS of time and effort into getting (As low level players, low level resources are level appropriate challenges) is simply not right. Shortcuts are one thing, but a "faucet" that charges the customer for resources would only ever be shut off when the person (Or people) stop paying money for the resource. Simply put, every time someone buys resources from the cash shop it will reduce the overall value of all other resources of that type that exist in the world. One thing we've learned from allowing players to spend money in game is that people WILL use the service, no matter how expensive it is, and these purchases will end up back in the market one way or another, especially in a system where nothing is "bound" to a character.
Anything a player can use to increase there experience, level, skill, talent, or otherwise give them a tactical, or even financial advantage shouldn't be accessible in this way.
Allowing a player to purchase any good that lets them attain greater glory is exactly what Pay-to-Win means.
Sure GW can limit the amount of $$ someone can spend on these resources from the cash shop, which seems to be the only way GW could control how these resources affect the economy, but as a business this would antithetical to the entire premise of selling the game at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm firmly in the realm of Cash Shop should only be cosmetic items, or account related items (ie: Character slots and the like). Anything that has any real effect on gameplay should really just be kept to being earned through gameplay.
Any sort of item that can be part of the in game market should remain as an in game collected/crafted item. Otherwise you risk negating the entire idea behind a player built economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This just smacks of convenience being more important than in-game activity and interaction (locating the ore, mining the ore, transporting the ore, marketing the ore, etc.). If we aren't having to actually grind skills, then what's the rush? Why the hurry to jump-start how quickly players have access to these materials? If you don't have the coin to buy materials on the market, train the skill and go get it.
"...rather than having to wait to establish their niche in the game's market."
But why are we looking for ways to fast-track players past needing to get involved in the game enough to develop a niche in that market? I'm not advocating drudgery, but providing a degree of convenience such that you can race through a tier of mats with no more effort than a credit card swipe seems the kind of accelerated progression more common to theme park games.
No matter how short a span that you find these mats useful, their acquisition should involve in-game action and interaction without robbing potential suppliers of even one sale.
The alternative is that a new player coming into the game has to a) establish a supply chain and b) grind unrelated content for coin to purchase things from that chain before he can even try out what he wants to do to see if it's for him. Yes, we want people to establish a supply chain and interact with the community, they'll have to if they want to advance. This is just a grace period for them to learn their way around. The bigger a hurdle you put right out of the gate, the more people are likely to walk in, look at it, and turn right back around. I'm sorry, but making a crafting character spend the first month of game running PVE adventuring just so he can afford the mats to start crafting makes about as much sense to me as forcing every adventuring character to make their own weapons and armor before they can go out slaughtering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What stops the new crafting character from going out, likely not far from a starter town, and harvesting nodes (not harvesting camps)to get their starter tier materials? If they can't protect themselves yet, all the more reason to network with other newer players and make a harvesting party for their mutual protection.
I'm fully aware that the learning curve is steeper in a sandbox game, but my hope is that enough experienced community members will be willing to offer those people a helping hand. If we, as a community, are concerned about the plight of new players and maintaining a steady flow of fresh blood into PFO, I think it is incumbent upon us to help and even subsidize those new people, thus growing and strengthening our community in the process.
Nothing creates a more game-loyal player than one who feels like they are a part of a vibrant, cooperative, and compassionate player community. The best way to initiate them into such a community is to make them feel welcomed and valued from day one. I'm certain that GW can find many other profitable items to sell in a cash shop without competing with in-game markets. I would rather that they leave providing new players with a means of getting their needed first mats to those of us willing to help and to the industrious new players themselves. Before GW provides a buy-your-way to tier 2, let's see if it's even needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... making a crafting character spend the first month of game running PVE adventuring just so he can afford the mats to start crafting makes about as much sense to me as forcing every adventuring character to make their own weapons and armor before they can go out slaughtering.
I agree, but only to a point. A crafting path character definitely shouldn't have to buy materials from the cash shop; I don't think it should be an option.
The beginning crafter merit badges could be achievable by apprentice level tasks both in the NPC starter towns and in player settlements.
Or characters could also be given some amount of money in character generation like in TT. Fighters will spend it on arms; crafters could use it for starting tools and materials.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
At least in my way of thinking, it would be wise for any crafter to be able to harvest the raw materials they use, but I hope it is not forced on them by such an archetype pathway. For instance, my CC might already have one or more skilled miners, but I want to dabble in smithing. If they can keep me supplied, I need not waste the skill time learning to mine.
Even in a skill based system, there will be some prerequisite skills that must be taken in succession (e.g. mining tier 1 before training mining tier 2), but I hope as much of the choice about what skill you spend time training is your decision, not predetermined for you.
I don't know how much in-game skill planning assistance GW intends to include in-game, but something like a list of "suggested" complimentary skills would be handy for new players. If it's not something GW plans to offer, I'm certain some player-run website is likely to provide that kind of helpful advice in the form of skill/profession guides.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know, I was thinking about the way settlements will work and came up with an idea that could work royally (or crash and burn):
If there is a necessary function (a good fit) for the cash shop eg aesthetics:
1. In-game art assets are costly and icing on the cake so not vital but conversely seem to be highly desirable/demand by players.
2. They don't fall into the P2W category 100%.
Then, if settlements are the collective collaboration of the members, then the extent of development of the settlement itself opens up higher grade features such as buildings and a whole lot more no doubt. Now those buildings have elevated and increasingly so functions eg skill training. But if there is a cash shop option that is only opening up to settlements that reach certain development advancement stages, then such things (at least to begin with) of aesthetics for the buildings could be opened up and paid for (real cash) from the settlement if they all vote on it. This way a big change with a big cost can be spread over a wide player base - and it has been earnt in game also, as well as variously voted on.
I don't know what could increase the scope beyond aesthetics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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AvenaOats,
In a similar thread, one of my suggestions for cash shop sale was settlement level "skins" to spruce up the generically in-game crafted buildings, streets, etc. For these larger ticket items, my suggestion was for GW to have something like a mini-kickstarter function in their cash shop where members of a settlement could pay into the cost and spread the pain out over their larger population. $50-100 for something like a fancy town hall skin might seem like a prohibitive amount for one player, but if you had a settlement of 50-100 people, it's $1 per person...pocket change. There would need to be some mechanism to ensure that what people pay for gets applied...that the initiating settlement player doesn't run off with the skin. Given that settlements will likely have individual, unique names, it should be possible to assign the skin to that settlement during order, then initiate its placement with one of the settlement management tools that's likely to be utilized in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cool, this is already "out there". Agree comes with a few tricky boxes to tick, but irrespective, probably more potential good than bad easily I think. Of course such a settlement becomes even more interesting and valuable to it's members. I guess if you keep the cost per person lower, then even if said settlement were destroyed, overall each person has not lost too much individual equity, so it's no great shakes. But equally the more valubale and personal the settlement, the more vigorous is it going to be defended! Kinda motivating solution overall I think?
[EXPORING IDEAS]Tentatively exploring this idea more: A cash shop could have a map to find a dragon egg. That way the cost could be high for the POTENTIAL to EARN a dragon (find, extract, raise safely, train and use without losing in battle eg). So potentially that might be a way for GW to include such a beast in their cash shop. I'm not sure the link is perfect, but it's an idea to explore. I'd also caveat by saying only settlements with certain DI advancement and particular to eg beast-training and finally out of eligible settlements a proportional cap on the number of dragons existing in the world at any one time; perhaps tracking the total map size with number of advanced settlements?
That way someone's dragon eventually becomes a target itself, the longer it is in the game world along with the rest of the dragon population, but equally said beastie slowly grows in power. Etc.
It could be argued: Why include the cash-shop at all? But if you are doing a limited number of eg beastie, this puts a limit on it's draw for the playerbase and hence design/dev resources expended. But a huge dragon imo by definition is an apex monster and so should be limited. Hence the Cash Shop if pricing it expensively (but affordably for a settlement to buy said map) then it actually pays itself for this special role in the game and is worth the resources and fits the preferred frequency of a high power component of a settlement's offensive capability. No doubt a little white elephant going on with Dragons too to further balance their power vs cost.[/EXPORING IDEAS]
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to respond to a couple of points...
Crafting may well include the gathering skills in it's archetype pathway.
Like Hobs said, while it may be wise for a crafter to have some ability to gather his own materials, we know that Raw Materials to Crafted Items is a three-step process of gathering, processing, and crafting, each of which is supposed to be a robust character focus. It doesn't seem right to me to make a crafter learn three different roles to start their career.
The beginning crafter merit badges could be achievable by apprentice level tasks both in the NPC starter towns and in player settlements.
There are pretty much two ways to do that.
a) "Crafting" quests, wherein you are given materials that cannot be used to craft anything but the quest item, which is then returned to an NPC for turnin. A lot of games use this to intro thier crafting system. The problem is, this is not crafting. It's a fetch quest with a progress bar in the middle. This falls solidly into the realm of grinding unrelated content, but is probably the best solution if starter supplies are not purchasable. It is at least superficially like crafting.
b) Crafting quests that give the player common raw materials and ask them to make various real items (things players would actually use) and turn them into NPCs for quest reward. This is highly exploitable to provide these crafting materials for free, which will have more impact than if there is a unit cost from the cash shop.
Or characters could also be given some amount of money in character generation like in TT. Fighters will spend it on arms; crafters could use it for starting tools and materials.
Turning character creation into a faucet for coin would be a mistake. There's a reason why most games either make starter gear unsellable, or make it sell for 1cp.
What stops the new crafting character from going out, likely not far from a starter town, and harvesting nodes (not harvesting camps)to get their starter tier materials? If they can't protect themselves yet, all the more reason to network with other newer players and make a harvesting party for their mutual protection.
I guess I'm a bit confused why you would suggest that to craft they should be forced to learn gathering and processing skills, then go on to suggest in your next post that you hope that how a player spends training time is his decision, and not forced on him.
I'm fully aware that the learning curve is steeper in a sandbox game, but my hope is that enough experienced community members will be willing to offer those people a helping hand. If we, as a community, are concerned about the plight of new players and maintaining a steady flow of fresh blood into PFO, I think it is incumbent upon us to help and even subsidize those new people, thus growing and strengthening our community in the process.
Nothing creates a more game-loyal player than one who feels like they are a part of a vibrant, cooperative, and compassionate player community. The best way to initiate them into such a community is to make them feel welcomed and valued from day one. I'm certain that GW can find many other profitable items to sell in a cash shop without competing with in-game markets. I would rather that they leave providing new players with a means of getting their needed first mats to those of us willing to help and to the industrious new players themselves.
So, you're suggesting that the player has the option of either spending training time (and thus real money) on skills he never intends to use again, or wait for the generosity of strangers before he can even start playing the game? Yes, I'd love for everything you suggest to be the case, but relying on it in place of having an actual new player experience seems like a mistake to me. When people purchase a game, they expect to be able to jump in and start playing it. The expanse of the skill system will be daunting enough, I don't think it's wise to add to it by forcing them to either spread themselves thin or learn the intricacies of the market system the moment they appear in world.
Before GW provides a buy-your-way to tier 2, let's see if it's even needed.
Please don't mischaracterize my suggestion. I have said that my suggestion is for starter grade goods. As in QL1-10ish, not everying in tier 1, which goes up to QL100. We know that recipes will require a minimum QL of materials to produce, so we don't run the risk of people using purchased QL10 materials to produce recipes all the way up to T2. If the materials are untradable, it makes it impossible for one, or even a few players to crash the market for them. No matter how much they buy in the store, they only remove themselves from the demand. There is a chance that they could in turn flood the market with the product of those materials (such as buying non-tradable copper and using it to produce a wave of QL10 copper swords, but again, this is confined to things that people will quickly move past. Crafters who are unable to sell this starter gear to players because of a saturation will still have the opportunity to earn coin, even if it means selling their first couple of products to NPCs.
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Now, having said all that, I've been giving it further consideration, and the ability to buy Goblin Balls to sell for in-game cash is another solution to this issue, though a kludgy one, as it requires new players be familiar with the concept of PLEX/GB as a marketable item, as opposed to the more familiar subscription.
@Dario
Materials no matter how low level are part of warfare interdiction therefore should not be purchaseable by credit card
Also you assert "Crafters who are unable to sell this starter gear to players because of a saturation will still have the opportunity to earn coin, even if it means selling their first couple of products to NPCs."
I hope there will be absolutely no npc vendors in game buying products off the players. Sandbox games should be all about player interactions and the market should be free of npc interference. I have seen no quote from a dev to support the hypothesis that there will be npc merchants buying items from players
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Goblin Squad Member
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This just smacks of convenience being more important than in-game activity and interaction...
Personally, it's more about finding ways for Goblinworks to make money than it is about finding ways to make things more convenient for the players. If I were prioritizing convenience, I would not have limited my suggestion to "starter resources".
If you're going to object to every convenience item in the Cash Shop, then your objections will simply be ignored, because they've already said they're going to have convenience items in the Cash Shop. If not this particular convenience item, then what others would be acceptable to you?
@Gambit - our MTX store will have items with in-game mechanical effects.
Our commitment to the player community is that none of those things will be the best in the game - a player crafted item will always be at least as good, if not better, than anything you can buy in the store. And we do not intend to put items into the store that are more than "convenience" items; things that are primarily consumables and that simply help reduce some of the minor irritations of playing.
There will be lots of bling, lots of mounts, lots of flashy sparkly bits.
The place where we draw the line between "pay-to-win" and "convenience" will almost certainly change over time as the game and the market develops. But I cannot imagine a time when the people who play the game would feel compelled to make MTX purchases for gear.
RyanD
There will likely be convenience items in the cash shop that have analogs that can be crafted by players like potions of healing. They won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself, and the point of making them available for sale is just to reduce player frustration not force people to buy stuff.
I would encourage you to accept this inevitability and work toward shaping it, rather than futilely working to stop it. Naturally, you're free to ignore my encouragement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope there will be absolutely no npc vendors in game buying products off the players."The solution I think (and don't hold me to this) that we'll use is that there will be NPC buyers and sellers for the entry-level stuff in the markets in the 3 NPC settlements. They will likely buy at a price that is fixed, setting a floor on entry level sales to ensure some moderate profit on those items. And they'll likely sell at a price that is low enough to be reasonable for new characters, but not lower than the buy price (so you can't just resell the items to the NPCs at a profit).
A player crafter who works on building up skills and abilities may be able to undercut the NPC sellers and still make a profit, and that's fine; it just makes buying entry level stuff even cheaper for everyone. If that happens, the NPCs should withdraw their offers to sell entry level stuff until there are no sellers willing to undercut them. Ideally the cost of the materials required, plus some value for the time required should produce a selling price that is higher than the NPC buying price, and we can adjust various elements in the economic model to try and produce that outcome.
If people try to keep the market for selling entry level goods closed (by consistently dumping inventory at a price so low that a new crafter can't make and sell things at a profit), we'd intervene to make that stop."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario
Materials no matter how low level are part of warfare interdiction therefore should not be purchaseable by credit card
Also you assert "Crafters who are unable to sell this starter gear to players because of a saturation will still have the opportunity to earn coin, even if it means selling their first couple of products to NPCs."
I hope there will be absolutely no npc vendors in game buying products off the players. Sandbox games should be all about player interactions and the market should be free of npc interference. I have seen no quote from a dev to support the hypothesis that there will be npc merchants buying items from players
This is about a year and a half old, but I haven't seen anything to contradict it.
We'll have a lot to say about markets in future blog posts. One thing I'll say now in advance is that we need to make it possible for new characters to buy the stuff they need to get started in a life in the River Kingdoms. What may not be as obvious is that there also needs to be a market for new crafters to sell the stuff they make so they can earn an income and progress towards making more and more valuable stuff.
The solution I think (and don't hold me to this) that we'll use is that there will be NPC buyers and sellers for the entry-level stuff in the markets in the 3 NPC settlements. They will likely buy at a price that is fixed, setting a floor on entry level sales to ensure some moderate profit on those items. And they'll likely sell at a price that is low enough to be reasonable for new characters, but not lower than the buy price (so you can't just resell the items to the NPCs at a profit).
A player crafter who works on building up skills and abilities may be able to undercut the NPC sellers and still make a profit, and that's fine; it just makes buying entry level stuff even cheaper for everyone. If that happens, the NPCs should withdraw their offers to sell entry level stuff until there are no sellers willing to undercut them. Ideally the cost of the materials required, plus some value for the time required should produce a selling price that is higher than the NPC buying price, and we can adjust various elements in the economic model to try and produce that outcome.
If people try to keep the market for selling entry level goods closed (by consistently dumping inventory at a price so low that a new crafter can't make and sell things at a profit), we'd intervene to make that stop.
An organic model would have the NPC vendors put out "buy" orders when they run low on inventory, giving incentives to crafters to fill those orders, thus making all the stuff in the economy player-created. That will only work if there are enough crafters willing and able to fill all the NPC orders. If we find that there aren't, then the NPCs will have to create entry level goods from the digital ether. The sooner that ends, the happier I'll be, but we won't sacrifice the player's experience in pursuit of a theoretical perfect economic model.
Edit: Ninja'd by Jazz. Also, if I ever become a musician "Ninja'd by Jazz" will now be my first album title.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario and Hobs
If you read what I posted, I did not write that crafting might "require" gathering skills. I wrote that it might "include" them.
A crafting focus might start broad in scope, such as "woodworker", and allow room for "gather woods". Later, the craft might focus more and branch into "bowyer/fletcher" or "carpenter" or even "engineer" (requiring more skills like "stoneworker" or even "siege weapons").
A "pure" crafter may well choose all crafting skills, "armorer", "weaponsmith", "siege craft", "bowyer/fletcher" and have little room for gathering. Other players should supply the demand for these PCs crafting.
In the Gobbocast 9 interview, crafting and being a merchant were used as if they were interchangeable. Makes me think that "profession" skill trees may overlap a bit.
I really hope that "Epic gatherer" is not an archetype path unless it is good at gathering everything....
The point is, no one suggested "requirements" except the two of you. I simply feel that at low levels PCs may have room to gather low level mats in their skill base. If so, there would be no need to "sell" mats in the cash shop.
"If a player could do it in-game, a player should do it" to paraphrase some Dev somewhere...
@Dario
As you say it is old and I hope still open for crowdforging. :)
The problem I see with Ryan's logic there is if we assume for the sake of argument starter gear is ql1 to 10 and a vendor will buy this from a crafter for a small profit. The crafter then wants to move onto ql11 to 20 crafting, however more experienced crafters are already flooding the market with these goods for a price that the new crafter cannot match (I am assuming that improved crafting skills can reduce the cost of manufacture of an item). So what happens then? Do GW decide we had better have the vendor buying ql11 to ql20 items? This will of course happen at virtually every level of crafting and all of a sudden we have npc's buying all levels of goods.
While I can see why Ryan suggested that I am unconvinced that it is a real solution. The same problem exists in Eve whereby the new industrialist has trouble competing price wise from the fully skilled industrialist, the way people get around this in Eve is as a new industrialist you pick very carefully what you make and you pick very carefully the market you sell it at. You will find it is still possible to make a profit that way.
The other thing of course is that the new crafter does not have to sell these pieces at all, he uses for instance 20 iron ingots, 10 leather strips and 10 lengths of copper wire to make 10 short swords. This gets his merit badge so he can progress to the next crafting level. If he can't sell for a profit he can salvage the swords for raw materials and get back 14 iron ingots, 7 undamaged strips of leather and 6 lengths of copper wire to put towards his next set of crafting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite
Crafting, Processing, and Gathering are being advertised as separate roles(archetype trees). Your suggestion was that a crafter should just learn gathering skills.
Miners gather ore and weaponsmiths turn it into swords, but a smelter needs to turn that ore into ingots, solder, wire, and foil before the weaponsmith can use it.
@ZenPagan
I am assuming that improved crafting skills can reduce the cost of manufacture of an item
What is the basis of this assumption? As mentioned in the If I Had A Hammer blog, the advantage for crafting something below your skill is that you can use higher quality materials to enhance it, not that it somehow becomes cheaper to produce.
I am basing it off the fact that there will be many crafting related skills and two obvious general crafting skills are one to improve speed of crafting and materials wastage from crafting. This may not be the case potentially.
It also seemed implicit in the statement from Ryan, this phrase implied it in particular "A player crafter who works on building up skills and abilities may be able to undercut the NPC sellers and still make a profit, "
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Goblin Squad Member
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@The other thing of course is that the new crafter does not have to sell these pieces at all, he uses for instance 20 iron ingots, 10 leather strips and 10 lengths of copper wire to make 10 short swords. This gets his merit badge so he can progress to the next crafting level. If he can't sell for a profit he can salvage the swords for raw materials and get back 14 iron ingots, 7 undamaged strips of leather and 6 lengths of copper wire to put towards his next set of crafting.
Which are all still going to be at or below the QL of the items, meaning they cannot be used on higher QL recipes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am assuming that improved crafting skills can reduce the cost of manufacture of an itemWhat is the basis of this assumption?
It's not completely clear, but it might be a reasonable assumption:
The Middlemen...
The efficiency of a processing job is a function of the quality of the building, the attitudes of the common folk who work in that settlement, and the skills and merit badges of the character overseeing the work....
Some Assembly Required...
From time to time during the crafting job, you'll be informed that your assistance is needed, usually in the form of acquiring and supplying unanticipated components...
Also, like the work of processors, things that affect the settlement and the common folk will impact the pace of crafting jobs.
Certainly, character skills will impact the "efficiency" of Processing jobs.
Similarly, character skills might impact the frequency at which unanticipated components are required. Perhaps one of those "unanticipated components" is a material that is used to help recover from minor mistakes, so that more skilled crafters will require less of this material.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The other thing of course is that the new crafter does not have to sell these pieces at all, he uses for instance 20 iron ingots, 10 leather strips and 10 lengths of copper wire to make 10 short swords.
Keep in mind that Processor and Crafter are distinct Roles. I expect many Crafters may not choose to do any Processing at all, and vice versa.
@Dario
But does not mean the items cannot be refined further...eg iron ingots being smelted into steel. Or in worse case the materials can be sold on to other low level crafters.
Also just because a higher ql item needs higher ql materials in its construction does not mean it will not be needing lower ql items as well
eg
ql 10 iron short sword
2 iron ingots (ql10 min)
1 leather strip (ql5 min)
1 length copper wire (ql2 min)
ql20 steel short sword
2 steel ingots (ql20 min)
1 leather strip (ql5 min)
1 length copper wire (ql2 min)
may be recipes. The if I have a hammer blog is very light on detail and I certainly didn't take away the impression that a ql20 item would need all the mats to be ql20
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly hope that being the best possible miner doesn't mean that all of my skill investment must go into mining. Or that to be the best possible refiner, I will need to devote all skills to refining. I like the idea of specializing in certain roles, but if all I do is "gather wood" or, alternatively "process wood", I think that might get a little boring.