Not to mention that "at the start of the game" doesn't mean "at level 1". A GM can start a group of characters at 20th if he wants - which would mean they get bonus languages for their 20th level INT, including all the level-based ability additions and magical items.
Refer to my first post in this thread.
The point is that we do not believe the writers INTENT was to have character gain languages as you gain stats via new equipment or levels AFTER character creation.
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Skill Points are not Retro Active either
Actually...yes they are! One of the design changes from 3.5 to PF is that in 3.5 skill points were not retroactive but in PF they are.
All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there's no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up.
The characters in the NPC Codex/Guide don't HAVE a scenario. They're general, multi-purpose stat blocks you can plug into any adventure you want. Plus, the NPC Guide includes the pregens for Pathfinder Society play. The Ezen pregen has a magical headband and the appropriate number of languages for his boosted intelligence. Doesn't that answer the question of "is this legal in society play"?
The NPC Codex features potions of Mirror Image and other Personal spells - illegal for PCs.
The NPC Codex also had a high level caster using Time Stop to pull all sorts of nastiness on the party -- all of it disallowed by the specific rules given in the Time Stop spell description.
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The Ezen pregen has a magical headband and the appropriate number of languages for his boosted intelligence. Doesn't that answer the question of "is this legal in society play"?
The NPC Codex features potions of Mirror Image and other Personal spells - illegal for PCs.
There are two characters in the entire codex, both high level monks, who have potions of mirror image. It could easily be a typo or some author confusion. Or they could be single use wondrous items in potion form.
Either way, the pregens in the NPC Codex, which are perfectly legal for society play and used fairly often, do not have potions of mirror image, but they DO have the appropriate number of languages for their modified intelligence. So, like I said, doesn't that answer the question of "is this legal in society play"?
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The NPC Codex also had a high level caster using Time Stop to pull all sorts of nastiness on the party -- all of it disallowed by the specific rules given in the Time Stop spell description.
What page? Because I just did a search for "Time Stop" in my pdf of the NPC Codex and the closest I can find to using "Time Stop to pull all sorts of nastiness on the party" is this part under the Necromancer on pg. 193:
During Combat: The wizard casts time stop and energy drain on the most dangerous-looking target, then thins out the ranks of his enemies with chain lightning.
There should probably be a comma after "time stop" to make it more clear, since you can't target other people while under the effects of time stop, but I read that as the wizard is casting Time Stop and THEN using energy drain and chain lightning after the time stop ends. The Time Stop is presumably there to ensure the wizard has all his buff spells up or has the opportunity to move into the best possible position.
None of the NPCs have more than a sentence or two of general tactics. So these aren't detailed battle plans, just a vague idea of how that NPC reacts to combat. In the case of the high level necromancer, he reacts by giving himself some breathing room and then going right into his highest level spells.
Again, we can stop and pick out the typos and errors in books all day. The point I was trying to make is that almost every single character written up with boosted intelligence also has the appropriate number of languages for that new intelligence. Between that and the fact that the published rule for permanently raising an ability score say that all the bonuses and statistics connected to that score are also increased, and James saying they intentionally got rid of the exceptions to that general rule, you really have to drill down to a very narrow reading of the rules in order to claim that bonus languages are set at 1st level.
I suppose the headband of intelligence need an errata, to prevent people from gaining the language(s) they need every 24 hours (the same way it is handled for skills).
For example : headband of vast intelligence +2 of knowledge (plane) and Abyssal.
This is roughly how I would rule it in a home game.
Just as a headband comes "preloaded" with skill ranks, it comes "preloaded" with languages.
If it is +2, then it has 1 specific skill and 1 language associated with it.
If it is +4, then 2 skills, and 2 languages.
However, if one of the skills is Linguistics, this obviously presents an issue. I would still say that a +2 headband gives a language for the +1 modifier, and then there is a predetermined list of other languages it will give you when you gain levels. Already have elvish? Well, sorry, the 4th level language doesn't help you. Not sure what to do about those Tengu though, 2X languages can be a lot over even 10 levels. AND skill ranks don't stack, so they shouldn't LOSE languages gained from the skill already, right? Details, details.
What I would NOT do, is allow the PC to allow it to be variable, otherwise they could take it off, wait, put it back on and now know the language needed.
I would not have a problem with allowing the PC to pick the languages themselves within reason (no Druidic, for example), and headbands made by Dwarven smiths are unlikely to provide Dwarven as a language, because that would be useless to the creator, and they are equally unlikely to have Auran or Aquan, although Terran and Ignan seem reasonable to me. Once chosen then the headband's languages are set.
A translator/diplomacy character could do worse, it seems, than to have the skill in their headband be Linguistics.
I agree with most of the post above, but not all. Yes, headbands should come preloaded with languages, but players should not get to choose what they are. Further, those preloaded languages will often fail to make a difference.
Just as it is possible to find a headband that grants maxed ranks in skills a character already has, it should be possible to find a headband that grants languages a character already knows. I would guess that many item crafters would have little interest in crafting headbands that grant knowledge of exceptionally obscure languages. Most of them will see more utility in giving access to the languages that are the most likely to be relevant in the campaign setting. So lots of headbands will impart knowledge of the language of the major empire next door or of Dwarven or Elven (assuming dwarves and elves are major races in a given world), but few are likely to grant Auran or Boggard or Sahaugin.
You are using NPC stat blocks as an equivalent to a PC, which they are not. There is plenty of information that "should" be on a PC sheet that is left out on those NPCs presumably because its not relevant when you pit that NPC against a PC. But if I wanted to take said NPC and convert it into an playable PC I would need to fill in the gaps. This info should already exist on a PC sheet. These NPCs may be comparable with society play, but are by no means can you simply drag and drop one into a game as a player.
That being said, my original point about how many languages they have is still valid simply because they are NOT players.
As side from that, I completely agree that no matter what level you build a character to when you first create it, the intelligence it has at creation should be used for languages. However, after that, languages can not logically be learned by increasing your intelligence stat. If you could, there would be no need for a linguistics skill or the more recent rule in ultimate campaign about learning new languages.
Not to mention that "at the start of the game" doesn't mean "at level 1". A GM can start a group of characters at 20th if he wants - which would mean they get bonus languages for their 20th level INT, including all the level-based ability additions and magical items.Refer to my first post in this thread.
The point is that we do not believe the writers INTENT was to have character gain languages as you gain stats via new equipment or levels AFTER character creation.
Well, no. YOU don't believe that was the designer's intent. I think that was exactly their intent.
And what you've said actually misses the point: A character created at level 4, or 10, or 20 has those additional stats via levels and equipment at the time of creation. They never existed without those stats from an out-of-game and rules perspective.
Had they intended for those bonuses to apply only at level 1, then the designers - who I'm sure are very aware that GMs often start players off with mid- to high-level characters - could have easily said that. They didn't. They said "at the start of the game".
So even if we assume that they didn't intend for the bonus languages to apply retroactively, that still doesn't imply that you only get the bonus languages you would have had with your 1st level INT; that interpretation in no way is implied by RAW or RAI.
However, after that, languages can not logically be learned by increasing your intelligence stat. If you could, there would be no need for a linguistics skill
Yes there would. The languages you get from your INT stat can only be selected from the bonus language list from your race or class. Without the linguistics skill, there would be no way for a character to learn any languages outside of that bonus language list.
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I missed your latter post originally, where you stated that you agree about the inclusion of extra bonus languages for a higher INT when created at a higher level. So basically what I said in that section of my reply, we agree.
I'd like to ask again: Where in the rules, for character creation or level advancement, does it spell out a universal rule that you must offer in-game justification for the increase to any ability, skill, spell, etc? There are exceptions, like learning magic from spell books, but even those have some automatic progression. A wizard who levels, by RAW, instantly knows new spells; again, by RAW, he doesn't have to go seek out a master's spellbook or find someone to teach those to him - he just knows them.
In-game justification for increasing an ability or skill, no matter how sensible it is, is a house\table rule in Pathfinder.
That's a long quote, so I'm not going to try, but I the fact that this subject has been argued to this degree proves that it needs an FAQ because of how unclear it is. The problem that I have with you arguing RAW is that the RAW is there for the purpose of a clear and concise mechanical representation of the "how" involved in the role playing in RPG. Everything, even if you hand wave it, is supported by raw because it explains a finer point of the roleplaying that is just too minor to bother say out loud.
Example would be when a character increases perception at level up is a RAW description of how a character has gotten better at noticing minor details in the environment that are out of place. Did you actually roleplay this happening? No, because its trivial, but none the less it happened. This is why a GM has the power to tell a player they can't do something simply because they haven't roleplayed it. I wouldn't let a player who never talks to NPCs or roleplays conversations with other players suddenly put all 18 of his skill points at level up into diplomacy because it simply makes no sense that a character who ACTIVELY avoids such encounters is now suddenly a great talker. The player would somehow have to justify this to me.
I know that this is clearly GM fiat, but that is exactly why it exists. So that players can not abuse the RAW to their advantage at the expense of the story. You have to remember that the story is a character too, and that is often forgotten.
That being said, there is no roleplaying logic behind learning a new language when your intelligence goes up to validate a RAW that's says it does.
I get that a lot of players want to argue that, "well the book says I can do it". Yeah, that's cool, but it still makes no sense. If it can't be justified via roleplaying a scenario explainable logically, it can't happen. That's exactly what roleplaying is. Otherwise its not an RPG anymore, its a pen and paper videogame.
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That's a long quote, so I'm not going to try, but I the fact that this subject has been argued to this degree proves that it needs an FAQ because of how unclear it is. The problem that I have with you arguing RAW is that the RAW is there for the purpose of a clear and concise mechanical representation of the "how" involved in the role playing in RPG. Everything, even if you hand wave it, is supported by raw because it explains a finer point of the roleplaying that is just too minor to bother say out loud.
Example would be when a character increases perception at level up is a RAW description of how a character has gotten better at noticing minor details in the environment that are out of place. Did you actually roleplay this happening? No, because its trivial, but none the less it happened. This is why a GM has the power to tell a player they can't do something simply because they haven't roleplayed it. I wouldn't let a player who never talks to NPCs or roleplays conversations with other players suddenly put all 18 of his skill points at level up into diplomacy because it simply makes no sense that a character who ACTIVELY avoids such encounters is now suddenly a great talker. The player would somehow have to justify this to me.
I know that this is clearly GM fiat, but that is exactly why it exists. So that players can not abuse the RAW to their advantage at the expense of the story. You have to remember that the story is a character too, and that is often forgotten.
That being said, there is no roleplaying logic behind learning a new language when your intelligence goes up to validate a RAW that's says it does.
I get that a lot of players want to argue that, "well the book says I can do it". Yeah, that's cool, but it still makes no sense. If it can't be justified via roleplaying a scenario explainable logically, it can't happen. That's exactly what roleplaying is. Otherwise its not an RPG anymore, its a pen and paper videogame.
If that's the way you want to run your game, you better make damn sure the players know this before they even make their PC, and it should apply to languages, skills, spells, feats and class abilities equally!
Good luck!
Hey, I know it seems rough, but "because I can" is not good enough to me. I take the role playing as what it is. If you don't, all your doing is playing a videogame at a very slow pace. I don't see an issue with asking players for a reason why they do something. That is RPG 101 if you ask me.
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I'll say it again. Why would languages be literally the only thing not retroactive in the game? Paizo has made it a point that stat increase bonuses are all retroactive. All of them. All signs point to "yes, languages are retroactive".
And I certainly disagree with the "no justification" for raising intelligence and getting a language. These language lists are still limited by race. Only a handful can actually learn every language, so this says that they are "languages of your people".
So, this guy spent a lot of time around people speaking these languages that he doesn't know well enough to communicate in. When his intelligence increases (which, while abstracted to level up, is happening all the time), he gets a better grasp on them and gets the hang of communicating in them.
As far as magic items go? I don't think I'd mind a language attached to it, but again, it's magically increasing intelligence. I don't think we can really pull the "it doesn't make sense" card on them getting a magical mastery of his people's languages.
It occurs that common sense would dictate that while a permanent Intelligence bonus would grant you the ability TO LEARN a new language, it does not automatically confer knowledge of a new language upon you.
You still have to find a book, get a tutor, and learn it, like anybody else.
Sheesh. (And-a-half.)
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It occurs that common sense would dictate that while a permanent Intelligence bonus would grant you the ability TO LEARN a new language, it does not automatically confer knowledge of a new language upon you.
You still have to find a book, get a tutor, and learn it, like anybody else.
Sheesh. (And-a-half.)
It occurs that common sense would dictate that while leveling up would grant you the ability TO LEARN new skills, it does not automatically confer knowledge of those skills upon you.
You still have to find a book, get a tutor, and learn it, like anybody else.
Do you see how that sounds? Everybody just puts points in skills on level up. No problem. I can even put a point in linguistics, and BAM, languages. No time spent with a teacher, book, tutor, or anything! Why should intelligence raises be any different?
I know that this is clearly GM fiat, but that is exactly why it exists. So that players can not abuse the RAW to their advantage at the expense of the story. You have to remember that the story is a character too, and that is often forgotten.
That being said, there is no roleplaying logic behind learning a new language when your intelligence goes up to validate a RAW that's says it does.
I get that a lot of players want to argue that, "well the book says I can do it". Yeah, that's cool, but it still makes no sense. If it can't be justified via roleplaying a scenario explainable logically, it can't happen. That's exactly what roleplaying is. Otherwise its not an RPG anymore, its a pen and paper videogame.
As I said earlier, as a GM I agree with you (to a point) about having some sort of justification in-game as to why a character puts points in a particular skill, or learns a particular feat. I came from a system where that actually was in the RAW; the Storyteller system requires that you justify expenditures of XP.
But the Storyteller system is also a very different system when it comes to improving your character, and so it handles such a system well. You don't level up and come into a bevy of skill points and new ability choices that, 'by the book' you must spend immediately. You bank up XP and then purchase individual improvements as you justify them.
At the end of the day, what your'e suggesting is a house rule. And that's fine - as I said, I actually even agree with it in many instances. But this isn't the "house rules" forum.
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The point was that the character learns the new language throughout his career in the previous level and gains the knowledge when he transverses into the world of the more experienced by leveling up. This assumes that the knowledge of the new language is because of the raise of the INT stat of a 4 level stop in the progression. (4-8-12-16-20)
So, I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level. Common Sense, with the capitols, assumes such has happens when the new language suddenly is denoted in the languages field.
Right?
That is entirely a min/max-er point of view. Those of us who play p&p games for their storytelling qualities do not see it this way. Their MUST be logic and common sense involved. If not, the game is just a mathematical equation.
That being said, I have never disagreed with the "everything is retroactive" argument except for the point that languages has that "...at the start of the game" line. I just want a ruling that elaborates on exactly what that means. Perhaps it means nothing, in which case, OK. But I doubt it was written as fluff...
The point was that the character learns the new language throughout his career in the previous level and gains the knowledge when he transverses into the world of the more experienced by leveling up. This assumes that the knowledge of the new language is because of the raise of the INT stat of a 4 level stop in the progression. (4-8-12-16-20)
So, I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level. Common Sense, with the capitols, assumes such has happens when the new language suddenly is denoted in the languages field.
Right?
I would tend to agree with that prior to the release of ultimate campaign, but UCamp now adds actual guidelines to that exact scenario.
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The point was that the character learns the new language throughout his career in the previous level and gains the knowledge when he transverses into the world of the more experienced by leveling up. This assumes that the knowledge of the new language is because of the raise of the INT stat of a 4 level stop in the progression. (4-8-12-16-20)
So, I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level. Common Sense, with the capitols, assumes such has happens when the new language suddenly is denoted in the languages field.
Right?
As a table rule? Sure.
As a rule from the book? Not really.
Tarantula's point was that there are no mechanical rules in the original rule set that require a justification of purchasing a new ability. Common sense or not, a person could never have seen a dragon or heard a dragon or picked up a book about a dragon in his entire life, and by flat following of the rules, could drop a point in Linguistics when he levels up and immediately choose to know draconic.
Now, if the particular GM involved wants to restrict that, great! I probably would too, in that particular situation. But that's invoking rule 0, which (while it might help keep the world going 'round) can only set table precedent, not universal RAW.
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I believe that it is as a poster above has said, within a context of character creation. That a change has been done with another aspect of this I doubt Languages would buck that change by not being retroactive in turn.
I would add that any items that add to int with a 24 hour lead time might not add the language until after the 24 hours has passed, but that might be a house rule type of thing or unclear as written.
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That is entirely a min/max-er point of view. Those of us who play p&p games for their storytelling qualities do not see it this way. Their MUST be logic and common sense involved. If not, the game is just a mathematical equation.
To follow the rules as written is not a min\max-er point of view. There's no twisting of the rules here. It may offend your personal sensibilities, but that does not alter what's written on the page.
At this point, you're straying into 'badwrongfun' territory.
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I'd like to ask a question, based on the statements of "common sense" and "logic": Could you point me to an example in the real world showing that putting on a hat that increases your IQ by 100 doesn't suddenly allow you to speak another language?
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This game is all about abstraction. It assumes things are happening without the need for the players to roleplay every second of every day for the sake of character development. A wizard doesn't have to announce that he is studying/creating this fireball spell for the next level.
If you want to play that way, go ahead. I actually think it would be interesting if it weren't so tedious to roleplay all of this. However, as the game system is built, it assumes a lot of abstraction and retroactive continuity. Everything is built that way, so why is this one, inconsequential thing different?
So we have 41 FAQ clicks so far. How many do you think it would take to get an answer?
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Also remember, Monks at higher level (which I didn't know until after I made my Tengu Society character with Linguistics, I know something like 24 languages now) have a class ability that says they know all spoken/written languages.
Trying to remember if that was the case in 3.5................
It don't say that (unless we are speaking of a different ability limited to some archetype.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.
You can speak with any creature, but you can't read and you don't know the language.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.You can speak with any creature, but you can't read and you don't know the language.
Fair to note, any "living" creature. That lich who only speaks draconic? Gonna be hard...
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So we have 41 FAQ clicks so far. How many do you think it would take to get an answer?It was only posted yesterday, give them some time to work out a final answer.
From other threads, 30 hits should suffice and some reply by the Pathfinder Design Team was very fast. but I think it depend on the question. This one isn't crucial and hasn't a clear answer, so probably it will require some time.
I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level.
That seems impractical to me. I've had characters level up multiple times in a single dungeon.
I was taught French and German at school but I don't 'know' either language. (In the binary "you know it or you don't" Pathfinder sense.) But suppose I suddenly got magically more intelligent. I might start to remember all the things I was taught. That actually makes more sense to me than taking a rank of linguistics.
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I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level.That seems impractical to me. I've had characters level up multiple times in a single dungeon.
I was taught French and German at school but I don't 'know' either language. (In the binary "you know it or you don't" Pathfinder sense.) But suppose I suddenly got magically more intelligent. I might start to remember all the things I was taught. That actually makes more sense to me than taking a rank of linguistics.
In the film Limitless the protagonist took an experimental drug which affected his mind. He could suddenly remember everything he had ever even glanced at or half heard, and make amazing connections between things, allowing him to do some pretty amazing stuff!
What was this in d20 game terms? Maybe +20 to Intelligence?
It's not too much of a stretch to believe that an increase in Intelligence allows connections to be made that were not made before, resulting in another language suddenly making sense, as well as increasing one more skill than last level.
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I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level.That seems impractical to me. I've had characters level up multiple times in a single dungeon.
I was taught French and German at school but I don't 'know' either language. (In the binary "you know it or you don't" Pathfinder sense.) But suppose I suddenly got magically more intelligent. I might start to remember all the things I was taught. That actually makes more sense to me than taking a rank of linguistics.
In the film Limitless the protagonist took an experimental drug which affected his mind. He could suddenly remember everything he had ever even glanced at or half heard, and make amazing connections between things, allowing him to do some pretty amazing stuff!
What was this in d20 game terms? Maybe +20 to Intelligence?
It's not too much of a stretch to believe that an increase in Intelligence allows connections to be made that were not made before, resulting in another language suddenly making sense, as well as increasing one more skill than last level.
And with this argument played down I have been shown a pretty damned good example of "why" a flat increase to intelligence would in fact grant a bonus language....suddenly I find myself sitting on the other side of the court room....well played my friend...well played.
Also, that was an epic movie.
[Edit]the fact that how you described "how" he started to "make connections" better in his mind to validate the argument just puts it on a level above all other arguments because that is damned near verbatim to the pf definition of intelligence.
So we have 41 FAQ clicks so far. How many do you think it would take to get an answer?It was only posted yesterday, give them some time to work out a final answer.
Sorry, I was not saying they were not answering. I meant that I know the FAQ system as they have discribed it, threads with more clicks get their attention faster. So I was curious what number gets a question on their radar so to speak.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand.....
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I would assume that the character gets the book and finds the tutor during the previous level, learning it just as he gains the new level.That seems impractical to me. I've had characters level up multiple times in a single dungeon.
I was taught French and German at school but I don't 'know' either language. (In the binary "you know it or you don't" Pathfinder sense.) But suppose I suddenly got magically more intelligent. I might start to remember all the things I was taught. That actually makes more sense to me than taking a rank of linguistics.
In the film Limitless the protagonist took an experimental drug which affected his mind. He could suddenly remember everything he had ever even glanced at or half heard, and make amazing connections between things, allowing him to do some pretty amazing stuff!
What was this in d20 game terms? Maybe +20 to Intelligence?
It's not too much of a stretch to believe that an increase in Intelligence allows connections to be made that were not made before, resulting in another language suddenly making sense, as well as increasing one more skill than last level.
And with this argument played down I have been shown a pretty damned good example of "why" a flat increase to intelligence would in fact grant a bonus language....suddenly I find myself sitting on the other side of the court room....well played my friend...well played.
Also, that was an epic movie.
[Edit]the fact that how you described "how" he started to "make connections" better in his mind to validate the argument just puts it on a level above all other arguments because that is damned near verbatim to the pf definition of intelligence.
Thanks for the kind words. : )
And, yeah, that movie kicked bottom!
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qos
Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?
Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
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Official response GET! Thanks again PDT! :)
And I must second the kudos to Malachi's example. It was sort of what I was getting at regarding the "hat in real life that increases your IQ by 100 points" comment, but much more eloquent and clear.
So what happens if your int score goes down? Can a curse hit a Barbarians's 10 int and make him lose common? That would be hilarious.
So what happens if your int score goes down? Can a curse hit a Barbarians's 10 int and make him lose common? That would be hilarious.
Lol, now I want to make a barbarian and make him get hit with a bestow curse to have 1 INT.
So what happens if your int score goes down? Can a curse hit a Barbarians's 10 int and make him lose common? That would be hilarious.Stat penalties work differently from gains. Unless it's ability drain, a loss of Intelligence just means a penalty to skill checks and spell DCs.
Drain works as if you really do have a lower score. So if it is Intelligence drain, you would presumably lose bonus languages. Fortunately for our barbarian, base languages are not a function of Intelligence, only bonus languages, so you can't forget how to speak altogether by taking Intelligence drain.
Except when you're drained to 2 or less INT, as it might remove your knowledge of Common (and other regional/racial languages).
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qos
Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?
Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
Good descision. That's how I've always thought it worked, and how we always ran it.
