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Unless you're a dirty minmaxing munchin DPR Schroedinger roll-player, playing a Commoner is just fine. My commoner always contributes to the party. He carries extra supplies from 1st level through 20th level, and he can do it all day long. When there are monsters to kill, he has barbarians and fighters and wizards in the party to do that. When there are other situations to handle, he has casters to deal with those, too. Because it's a TEAM game.
All these threads about "fixing the Commoner" are making me angry, because the Commoner is just fine, and those people are all theorycrafting or else just playing wrong. Their GM should fix whatever "problems" they claim to be experiencing, because I don't see them. And we all know that tinkering with the rules to try and fix them will inevitably bring about 4e.
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Don't just play a commoner. Play one that's blind, deaf, and lame and gets no bonuses for it. Builds or it didn't happen! 2+ is more than enough. You can be human for 3! What goalpost do you need to be good at something?
I agree its a team game. Commoners can't be expected to do everything. They're called commoners, of course their job is to be a jack of all trades and be common. Stop trying to say they should do more, your breaking my sense of immersion and bringing in this crazy Wuxia stuff into my fantasy game!
I'd always wanted to play one of those kids (commoner with young template) who's chasing the heros on horse-back returning to town after a succesful raid into the dragon's lair and collecting their horse dung for extras. I say you gotta find your specific niche and stick to it!
Ruyan.
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And we all know that tinkering with the rules to try and fix them will inevitably bring about 4e and the end of the World.
Fixed for ya!
Heya!
My name is Noober, and I approve of this message!
Is his name Baldric by any chance?
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In my games, commoners are always relevant. Sure, 99.9% of the rules are about giving non-commoners ways to do cool things commoners can't do, but no one actually plays using those high-level adventuring rules. This game is about having fun, so players and GM's who know how to play will make an agreement not to use material which makes commoners less fun.
Sure, a party with three fighters and a commoner could go adventuring in a dungeon where the fighters would kill all the monsters and the commoner would suck. But my group just agrees not to do that. We stick to fun stuff like farming and hanging out at the tavern. No one who plays the game correctly actually uses all of those high-level options that let adventuring classes kill things with swords.
In fact, show me one AP where PCs are required to go out and kill monsters instead of ignoring the plot hook and hanging out at the tavern. Nowhere in any AP does it say the PCs can't stay at home and let NPCs handle all of the challenges detailed in the module. There are plenty of rules in the skills chapter which cover running away, hiding, and grovelling, so the PCs never actually have to be heroes who save the day.
But I think we can all agree that every adventuring class has better abilities than the commoner class. Just look at the abilities each of the adventuring classes gets at 1st-level compared to the commoner getting nothing.
But I think we can all agree that every adventuring class has better abilities than the commoner class. Just look at the abilities each of the adventuring classes gets at 1st-level compared to the commoner getting nothing.
He has proficiency with a single (simple) weapon. They wouldn't have given him that if they didn't expect him to fight at some point in his life. Real role players find other ways to make up for the lack of skill points.
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But I think we can all agree that every adventuring class has better abilities than the commoner class. Just look at the abilities each of the adventuring classes gets at 1st-level compared to the commoner getting nothing.
Oh, really? So why don't you post a full build for this mythical Schrodinger's adventurer who oh so conveniently happens to have a level in an adventuring class.
If you want to prove that something is better than nothing, you're going to have to show us full 20-level progressions for builds using each of the non-commoner classes.
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But I think we can all agree that every adventuring class has better abilities than the commoner class. Just look at the abilities each of the adventuring classes gets at 1st-level compared to the commoner getting nothing.Oh, really? So why don't you post a full build for this mythical Schrodinger's adventurer who oh so conveniently happens to have a level in an adventuring class.
If you want to prove that something is better than nothing, you're going to have to show us full 20-level progressions for builds using each of the non-commoner classes.
We'll post our builds when your done. Also, be sure to make your goalpost clear. I don't want you moving the goal post or anything.
Commoner gets a home life. When adventuring palls he/she can always go home.
He has proficiency with a single (simple) weapon. They wouldn't have given him that if they didn't expect him to fight at some point in his life. Real role players find other ways to make up for the lack of skill points.
I don't have to accept your interruption of my sock-puppet argument. You're just moving the goalposts, now.
We can't have a meaningful discussion without goalposts.
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No commoner PC has ever died in any of my games. That must mean the class is pretty powerful.
Besides, just look at the alignment restriction (or lack thereof). The commoner can have any alignment, unlike the poor barbarian, druid, monk, and paladin!
well
this happened
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!
Commoner gets a home life. When adventuring palls he/she can always go home.
Not if it was burned down by the orc raiders the party refused to go out and stop he doesn't.
No commoner PC has ever died in any of my games. That must mean the class is pretty powerful.
Besides, just look at the alignment restriction (or lack thereof). The commoner can have any alignment, unlike the poor barbarian, druid, monk, and paladin!
Well those alignment restrictions balance them. The commoner has more options so its okay.
Well those alignment restrictions balance them. The commoner has more options so its okay.No commoner PC has ever died in any of my games. That must mean the class is pretty powerful.
Besides, just look at the alignment restriction (or lack thereof). The commoner can have any alignment, unlike the poor barbarian, druid, monk, and paladin!
The open alignment is a reward for not being a stodgy stuffed shirt of a Paladin. Woe to those poor plate-wearing fools and their Lawful Good punishment.
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!
Where's the build for this Schrodinger's commoner?
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!Where's the build for this Schrodinger commoner?
I'll ask him as soon as he gets back. I offered him 5 silver to go dig up the goalposts and move them somewhere over that-a-way.
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Pffff Commoners are OP. My friend plays a commoner. His earth familiar triple wields staffs and can effectively cast 30 different spells. Not to mention all the things the commoner can do. Why he can chain rod wands using UMD to cast fireballs that one-shot any encounter.
Personally I ban commoners from the table. His casting system throws off the balance of the game for everyone else.
Every commoner I play with ruins the game. BAN THE COMMONER HE IS TOO OP!
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Commoners don't have to worry about ACP, since they are not proficient with armor! And they are not MAD like Monks either!
They can have Int 16 and be human, so they'll have just as many skill points as a Ranger! That's too much!
Commoners are OP!
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!
With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
Pft, every Fighter would want it. Don't you know Fighters? Go check out all the Fighter guides, like, everywhere; you'll see how sad the Fighter is compared to the Commoner with his Frigid Wife companion.
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
I think we're moving goalpost now. Here's a fighter with who wanted those traits.
If you really wanna take a commoner adventuring, just put skill ranks into UMD. That way once he has a few scrolls and wands he'll be just as good as a full-progression caster.
I bet I could make a commoner that could beat any adventuring class. I challenge everyone in this thread to a two hundred session long playtest. Anyone who refuses my challenge must admit that they're a dirty roll-player and a terrible person, and I will never miss an opportunity to remind them of that whenever they make a post on this forum.
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Pft, every Fighter would want it. Don't you know Fighters? Go check out all the Fighter guides, like, everywhere; you'll see how sad the Fighter is compared to the Commoner with his Frigid Wife companion.Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
THIS
A commoner basically plays two characters. That is SO OP. If your GM allows leadership that's 3 characters unless his cohort is also a commoner and THEN you get 4 characters.
4 characters! Your one character is an adventuring party. We all know the Frigid Wife can out-fight the fighter.
Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.I think we're moving goalpost now. Here's a fighter with who wanted those traits.
** spoiler omitted **
That's not a full build! Without a full build, you're not telling us what you gave up to take those two traits. Unless and until you reveal all feats and traits this fighter has on 20th level, we can't have a discussion about his 1st-level trait selection.
He also has too little charisma. Only an idiot would dump an important stat like charisma. Children make fun of him in the streets, I wouldn't let him buy anything in the shops. His negatives would be given to the rest of the group as punishment for his dirty minmaxing ways! Who would even dare post a fighter build like that? I mean!... oh wait.
Pft, every Fighter would want it. Don't you know Fighters? Go check out all the Fighter guides, like, everywhere; you'll see how sad the Fighter is compared to the Commoner with his Frigid Wife companion.Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
That only works until you meet a rogue with his Seduce Anyone feat, or a cleric of Callistria with her expose & seduce spell.
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That only works until you meet a rogue with his Seduce Anyone feat, or a cleric of Callistria with her expose & seduce spell.Pft, every Fighter would want it. Don't you know Fighters? Go check out all the Fighter guides, like, everywhere; you'll see how sad the Fighter is compared to the Commoner with his Frigid Wife companion.Forget Armor Training, fancy spell lists, Flurry of Blows, and Favored Enemies. At level 1 the Commoner gets the Poverty Stricken and Heavy Drinker traits; he could probably pick the Loveless Marriage feat pretty early on. Show me a Fighter who can do that!With the possible exception of the Heavy Drinker trait, show me a fighter who'd want to.
Good luck getting a Frigid Wife companion to fail her save. Those things are practically unkillable, let a lone seduce-able.
