Some questions came up about the new bombard animal trick.
Is it the intention of this trick that the AC only gets its BAB and that dex does not apply?
Does this attack still suffer improvised weapon penalties for alchemical items or rocks? and if so would Throw Anything work to counter this? Similarly could Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot be applied?
I hadn't noticed the line about BAB. I think it's more reasonable to read it as "using its BAB (rather than the commander's)" instead of "using its BAB (with no other modifications)".
If you deny dex under a restrictive reading, the logic flows through to all other bonuses and penalties, which quickly becomes more ridiculous.
Is it the intention of this trick that the AC only gets its BAB and that dex does not apply?Probably. It's dropping stuff, not throwing stuff.
Does this attack still suffer improvised weapon penalties for alchemical items or rocks?No, as it's not a true attack. It's just dropping something; all things are the same when all you do is drop them.
would Throw Anything work to counter this? Similarly could Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot be applied?
Not in my opinion. It's more of a trick than an attack.
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I have a few simmilar questions, also to bombard:
It is somehow a ranged attack but it lacks any 'range increment' - and especially if you have a medium or large flying compannion (Roc or gryphon to name 2) that can just drop small objects with 40 or more pounds from heighs more than 200 feet above, it results in ridiculous damage - 40d6 for a small object, which is effectively a siege weapon with a precision of... well... here come the tough questions:
1: which AC is used? Full as it is a normal attack? Flatfooted for you usually don't evade rocks falling? Touch as armor does not really work against rocks as big as your torso?
2: What is the Range Increment is used if any? Most birds of prey have awesome eyesight.
3: Does the target get a Reflex roll to avoid getting hit or halve as it might be considdered an area attack?
Anyone has an idea about this?
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Okay, here are my two coppers...
I have a few simmilar questions, also to bombard:
It is somehow a ranged attack but it lacks any 'range increment' - and especially if you have a medium or large flying compannion (Roc or gryphon to name 2) that can just drop small objects with 40 or more pounds from heighs more than 200 feet above, it results in ridiculous damage - 40d6 for a small object, which is effectively a siege weapon with a precision of... well... here come the tough questions:
1: which AC is used? Full as it is a normal attack? Flatfooted for you usually don't evade rocks falling? Touch as armor does not really work against rocks as big as your torso?
Touch AC, also flatfooted if caught unaware.
2: What is the Range Increment is used if any? Most birds of prey have awesome eyesight.
It depends on the object; use whatever range increment the object has (or improvised weapon increments).
3: Does the target get a Reflex roll to avoid getting hit or halve as it might be considdered an area attack?
I would give classes with uncanny dodge (etc.) a reflex save to avoid direct damage (splash damage would be automatic). I would allow other classes to make a Handle Animal / Perception / Intelligence roll to notice the attack and allow a Reflex save to avoid direct damage (or uncanny dodge, etc. to avoid damage).
Thoughts?
-Doomn
Ok, this solves at least 1 and 3 totally, but still on 2:
What would be the range increment for a 40 lbs rock? Stones are not listed as weapons obviously, but it is roughly the same as a light catapult stone.
Light catapult stones cost 10 gp and weigh 50 pounds each.
But those have no given range increment, if you ignore that the light catapult, the corresponding siege engine has one of 150 feet. Also, it is simply dropping.
If the 150 feet increment of the catapult would be used that would give for maximum damage height (200 feet=20*10feet ~ 20*(2d6)) a modifier of -2.
If it is counted as improvised throwing weapon then... it gets ridiculous - that would be a 10 feet increment, rendering the trick useless with a modifier of -40.
VRMH noted above, that it might not actually be a real attack but the action of dropping an object, so making improvised weapon not applying).
Sure, a falling stone like this is a oneshot for many enemies, but it is still the fact, that the bird needs to pick up the suitable stone and rise the 200 feet (which is taking minimum 3 rounds), then dropping the stone and returning down (another 2 rounds) making this hardly overpowerd - a light catapult has 5 rounds minimum fire rate. It can't fight during these, unless the falconer trick to dive attack is added to the end of the command to drop the stone.
Ok, this solves at least 1 and 3 totally, but still on 2:
What would be the range increment for a 40 lbs rock? Stones are not listed as weapons obviously, but it is roughly the same as a light catapult stone.
Light catapult stones cost 10 gp and weigh 50 pounds each.But those have no given range increment, if you ignore that the light catapult, the corresponding siege engine has one of 150 feet. Also, it is simply dropping.
If the 150 feet increment of the catapult would be used that would give for maximum damage height (200 feet=20*10feet ~ 20*(2d6)) a modifier of -2.
If it is counted as improvised throwing weapon then... it gets ridiculous - that would be a 10 feet increment, rendering the trick useless with a modifier of -40.VRMH noted above, that it might not actually be a real attack but the action of dropping an object, so making improvised weapon not applying).
Sure, a falling stone like this is a oneshot for many enemies, but it is still the fact, that the bird needs to pick up the suitable stone and rise the 200 feet (which is taking minimum 3 rounds), then dropping the stone and returning down (another 2 rounds) making this hardly overpowerd - a light catapult has 5 rounds minimum fire rate. It can't fight during these, unless the falconer trick to dive attack is added to the end of the command to drop the stone.
The stone itself does not have a range increment because the weapon is doing all the work; it therefore takes the increment of the weapon. Objects that don't have a category usually fall under improvised weapons.
I would use the improvised weapon category. You are not just talking about an instantaneous drop of a simple item. You must also factor in the relative speed of the actor taking the item, the wind speed, the time it takes the item to fall X distance, the movement of the target, weather conditions, intervening objects, etc. If the actor takes three rounds to get to height and two rounds to return under power, how long will the stone take to hit? Would the target still be there in x rounds (2 maybe)? Is a -40 to hit too much for that? (Hell, if they did hit with a -40 penalty I would probably forgo any saves and call it all surprise, regardless of movement. That would also be one heck of a companion / familiar...)
Thanks,
-Doomn
But the fact remains that it is written as "[...]using its base attack bonus to determine its attack roll" - no strength or dex bonus mentioned to offset the -40 when the best BAB an Animal Companion can have is the +12 at lvl 20.
@falling time for 200 feet:
T=sqrt(2*height in meters/g) = sqrt(122/9,81) s=3,53s
I guess that is 1 round or less, making movement less a matter than you thought.
Also the text reads: "The animal cannot throw the object, and must be able to fly directly over the target."
So it is simply not thrown but it just starts to fall.
edit: Which makes me ponder - Does Range get countedon the vertival axis at all usually?
But the fact remains that it is written as "[...]using its base attack bonus to determine its attack roll" - no strength or dex bonus mentioned to offset the -40 when the best BAB an Animal Companion can have is the +12 at lvl 20.
Nothing mentioned; nothing excluded. It would be up to us to determine what bonuses to allow - perhaps Dex. Perhaps allow a Perception roll to pinpoint (if it has been three rounds later) or a Fly check to add a bonus?
@falling time for 200 feet:
T=sqrt(2*height in meters/g) = sqrt(122/9,81) s=3,53sI guess that is 1 round or less, making movement less a matter than you thought.
Okay, so it hits the round after it was dropped. The companion / familiar flies three rounds up (the target moved 60 feet). The companion / familiar drops the item (the target moves 20 feet). The item hits the location (not including prevailing wind conditions). Still no penalty for distance?
Also the text reads: "The animal cannot throw the object, and must be able to fly directly over the target."
So it is simply not thrown but it just starts to fall.
What if the companion / familiar is not able to fly over the target three rounds later? What if the target now has concealment or total cover? Does / can the companion / familiar compensate?
edit: Which makes me ponder - Does Range get countedon the vertival axis at all usually?
I would say probably not.
Thanks,
-Doomn
You start conflicting yoursef - you say rage should not get counted on the vertical axis, but want to use range increment for the attack roll, while the attack happens from directly above the target, which would be a 0-distance hrizontally.
On an other thread I found a suggestion to jsut add 5-foot grids above the floor, likely creating 5 foot cubes. That again would imply using range increment for vertically falling objects... arg.. now I am confused... Going to ask FAQ...
You start conflicting yoursef - you say rage should not get counted on the vertical axis, but want to use range increment for the attack roll, while the attack happens from directly above the target, which would be a 0-distance hrizontally.
On an other thread I found a suggestion to jsut add 5-foot grids above the floor, likely creating 5 foot cubes. That again would imply using range increment for vertically falling objects... arg.. now I am confused... Going to ask FAQ...
There is no contradiction. I said range probably does not "get counted on the vertical axis at all usually [sp]." This is not a "usual" occurrence - it is something new. As with all new things, other things change.
The trick was probably intended to allow the companion / familiar to drop alchemical item from (relatively close) overhead. A scenario was presented and I gave my opinion. If we use a ranged touch attack, a base attack bonus of +12 at level 20 is better than a Wizard (a player class that used ranged touch attacks quite frequently - +10). We may decide to include DEX in the calculation (or some other modifier), or not. If my player brought the above scenario in my game, I would use range increments for the hit roll. If they wanted their companion / familiar to drop Alchemist's Fire from ten feet, none of this would probably apply.
-Doomn
Here's a thread-necro question: what if the Animal Companion misses the Touch AC? Normally, you'd roll a d8 and count around clockwise to determine where it hits...but which square do you start from? Also, the splash weapon miss rules assume a thrown weapon; should we apply the same standards to a weapon that is instead dropped from straight overhead?
Here's a thread-necro question: what if the Animal Companion misses the Touch AC? Normally, you'd roll a d8 and count around clockwise to determine where it hits...but which square do you start from?
The one you arbitrarily point to and designate "one". It's no more an actual decision than calling heads or tails is.