I was wondering if by RAW these two stack under this circumstance. Say a character has large arrows and drops them as a free action. Then casts enlarge person and then picks them back up as a move. Then casts gravity bow. Since the arrows are naturally large they shouldn't shrink and Gravity Bow doesn't actually enlarge the arrows. Thoughts?
That is where I was confused, and maybe I'm reading into it too much but, it sounds like the enlarge effect is instantaneous. Also they use the past tense of carry. Again I may just be reading into it.
Items are only enlarged at the time of casting. So anything you pickup afterwards would remain the same size. I've never seen or heard of it enlarging items after the fact, and I doubt that would be the intended.
They would not be enlarged again, but since they are already large and the gravity bow is now large you should have no problem loosing them. The downside of course is that the rest of the time you have to lug around these large arrows that you cannot use. I hope you carry some ordinary arrows too in case you are ambushed, because if I was GM I would make sure that happens.
So its not really a question about Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person but Gravity Bow functioning with large arrows. If Enlarge Person enlarges only when the spell is cast then yes this would work. The only reason I see it not working is if items picked up after casting grow again.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
While the spell mentions items leaving the enlarged creature's possession it does not mention items picked up. So I would assume they remain normal sized, though that is up to interpretation because the rules simply don't say.
In this instance I am the GM, so I'm being certain to carefully consider it. Even if items picked up after the fact grow, that could lead to strange circumstances. I guess I should've just made this thread about Enlarge Person.
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I've seen "Siege Archer" builds that get around the lack of clarity by keeping a mount, animal companion or pack animal near them that is carrying a quiver of Large-sized arrows.
They get Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person going, then launch Large-sized arrows that they pull from the quiver located on their animal adjacent to them.
Items are only enlarged at the time of casting.Citation needed.
The rules do not say either way. (As I mentioned earlier). Careful consideration should be made on the GM's part which way round it works. Though general feeling seems to be that they remain at normal size once they leave the enlarged creatures possession.
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It will not work. Both the Enlarge Person and Gravity Bow spells affect the bow you are wielding, not the arrows. If you look in the Core Book, it is the bow itself that lists damage, not the arrows.
If you want to pull this off, you're going to have to carry a large-sized bow, drop it, cast Enlarge Person, pick the bow up, cast Gravity Bow, and then fire your arrows.
It will not work. Both the Enlarge Person and Gravity Bow spells affect the bow you are wielding, not the arrows. If you look in the Core Book, it is the bow itself that lists damage, not the arrows.
Actually no. Both spells affect the creature. :p Seriously though, Gravity Bow specifically states that it changes the ammunition to deal more damage (as if it were one size category larger). When you enlarge person all your goodies you are carrying grow bigger so your bow grows 1 size category so it deals more damage. However when an arrow leaves the now large bow, the arrow shrinks down to normal size again, losing its bigger damage. Which is why the larger arrows should be obtained elsewhere after enlargement.
If you want to pull this off, you're going to have to carry a large-sized bow, drop it, cast Enlarge Person, pick the bow up, cast Gravity Bow, and then fire your arrows.
This would also work. But I would rather have a bow that works 100% of the time. And whats all this dropping nonsense? That is what squires are for!
If the arrows enlarge after you pick them up you're now stuck with huge arrows you can't use at all.
Correct. So a GM ruling this way would break the "combo". But on the positive side any item you pick up will become big which can then be used to smack around your puny tiny enemies. Also disarming becomes less of an issue.
Furthermore, what difference does it make if the arrows go back to normal size. The damage is generated by the bow, not by the size of the arrows.
Assuming you were carrying Medium Arrows and a Medium Longbow and then cast Enlarge. Enlarge person specifically says:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.
So even though you're firing from a Large Longbow after casting Enlarge Person, you're still doing 1d8 points of damage.
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Items are only enlarged at the time of casting.Citation needed.
This is from page 80 of the final 3.5 FAQ. Submitted with the usual caveats regarding it coming from 3.5 specific material rather than PF. There is a link to the 3.5 FAQ in my profile.
"the weapon (or other item) immediately
reverts to its normal size when it leaves the possession of the
character/creature affected by enlarge person. Unfortunately,
the weapon does not become larger again upon being retrieved."
Edit to add text for comparison:
Pinky's Brain wrote:
Vastlyapparent wrote:
Items are only enlarged at the time of casting.
Citation needed.
This is from page 80 of the final 3.5 FAQ. Submitted with the usual caveats regarding it coming from 3.5 specific material rather than PF. There is a link to the 3.5 FAQ in my profile."the weapon (or other item) immediately
reverts to its normal size when it leaves the possession of the
character/creature affected by enlarge person. Unfortunately,
the weapon does not become larger again upon being retrieved."
Thanks Howie, that helps me feel better. That's the way I was going to rule anyways. Also I just managed to dig up this:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. ... If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Which specifically says that resize would happen only when the spell is cast. The only thing left to debate there would be whether or not Enlarge Person would work that way. Its in the Transmutation school, and that text above is for the Polymorph subschool. I'd imagine that they'd work in very similar ways in regards to when the resize/meld happens.
Interesting because prd seems to contradict itself. When speaking about reduce person prd wrote:
Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).PRD seems to be using to opposing paths of logic when referring to reduce person and enlarge person. Either the weapon generates the damage or the arrow generates the damage. So, PRD, which is it.
It is both. When you enlarge, you don't get increased arrow damage. When you reduce, you get the penalty of smaller weapon damage.
Why does it work that way? Because that is how they decided for it to work.
You can explain it with whatever fluff you want (tiny bowstring doesn't push the arrow as hard, so when the arrow re-sizes to its normal size, it doesn't hit as hard) or (even though a bigger bow gives the arrow more velocity, because the arrow shrinks to its normal size it doesn't get any extra damage from that).
The fluff isn't important, only that with projectile weapons, neither enlarge or reduce person provides a benefit to damage.
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These two stack. Further, you can simply cast enlarge person while you are holding the bow and then cast gravity bow reight afterwards. They will stack because the are not stacking size effects. Gravity bow is not a size effect.
It's not an issue of "stacking", it's that these two spells just do not work together.
If a medium-sized creature is enlarged, and shoots a bow, his bow deals medium-sized damage. Add in Gravity Bow, and you'll only deal large-sized damage. If you want huge-sized damage, you're going to have to go by the example I gave, which is carrying around a large-sized bow to begin with.
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.
I believe the bolded section above is what is being discussed.
I just don't allow gravity bow to begin with.
I believe the bolded section above is what is being discussed.
I just don't allow gravity bow to begin with.
I assume you don't allow lead blades either? Or for the fighter to have enlarge person cast on him for when he attacks with his greatsword?
... you can simply cast enlarge person while you are holding the bow and then cast gravity bow right afterwards. They will stack because the are not stacking size effects. Gravity bow is not a size effect.
This is how In would assume you do it. My Wizard in Serpent's Skull uses Gravity Bow on a regular basis, and the effect increases damage to the next size level. When using the spell my Medium crossbow does damage as if it were Large, so if Enlarge Person makes a character and his gear Large then Gravity Bow on his bow should do damage as the next size up from Large. (Huge?)
LATE EDIT: Or maybe not. If an Enlarged medium-to-large arrow returns to medium once fired, the Gravity Bow would just bump it back to Large again, not Huge. Ooops.
(Note to self: read the entire thread before posting! ;D )
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Give me a higher level warrior with a very high bonus to his chance to hit and I would gladly swap out -2 Dex for bumping the size category of my bow by 1. That takes average damage just from the dice from 4.5 to 7. Then figure you can add Gravity Bow if you carry around 20 large arrows and it's 10.5 average damage just from the dice.That high level warrior with Weapon Training, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization to that and you've got a beast of a ranged damage dealer.
There are better options available for a high level fighter.
Much, much better if the fighter has UMD or a single level caster dip to access Monstrous Physique or Elemental Body lines of spells.
This is from memory, so the usual caveats apply. :)
It's my understanding that one of the reasons Gravity Bow was created was because Enlarge Person didn't work with arrows (the items resizing once they leave clause).
Again, usual caveats apply.
I think the whole Gravity Bow + Enlarge Person thing is a red herring.
Ask yourself: Do Lead Blades and Enlarge Person stack?
Answer: yes. Why? Because they are not both size altering. Enlarge Person is size altering, Lead Blades is base damage altering.
Now, how does this apply to GB+EP?
Lets assume the target of EP is normally medium.
Lets assume the target of EP also owns both medium and large arrows.
1) Enlarge Person will not work with medium arrows. They will leave the bow and turn back into medium arrows.
2) If the archer drops the large arrows prior to being enlarged, they will not increase into huge arrows. They will remain usable after being enlarged. Note: they do NOT increase in size due to being picked up.
3) As per LB+EP, GB+EP stacks for the same reason. They are not the same effect. One increases the size, the other increases the base damage dice.
So yes, IF you use large arrows and IF you drop them before having Enlarge Person cast upon you, then YES, this works. Albeit, it is cheesy and may be worthy of house ruling.
Note: I know this doesn't count for many people but here is James Jacobs 1 and James Jacobs 2 opinions on this.
- Gauss
Albeit, it is cheesy and may be worthy of house ruling.
Note: I know this doesn't count for many people but here is James Jacobs 1 and James Jacobs 2 opinions on this.
In my particular case it really isn't too bad. Yes this is their starting character. I'm dealing with an Elven Wizard with a Masterwork Longbow (as a bonded object). He hasn't settled on a feat yet, but as of now his stat block is:
11, 15, 8, 19, 10, 8 (15 point buy).
He's a Transmuter, so at first level he'll be able to make his Dex 16. That gives him a +4 to hit and 1d8 damage under normal circumstances with his bow. Assuming he does Enlarge, Pick up large arrows, casts Gravity Bow. He wastes two rounds, his AC becomes 11, his to hit becomes +2, and does 3d6 damage. At that point his to hit becomes kind of low to reliably hit a BBEG, and at Level 1 3d6 is kind of overkill for most monsters.
Not to mention everything in the world is going to focus on killing the gigantic elf shooting siege arrows. (At AC 11 and 6 HP (+1 from favored class), that won't take long).
Pinky's Brain, earlier you asked for citation regarding things not enlarging when picked up. Perhaps you can provide citation stating that they are enlarged if picked up?
Simply put, the spell is cast on the user and all of his equipment. Then the duration begins. The event (the casting) has passed. Anything picked up is not affected by the spell since it was not present at the time of the spell.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.
Equipment is enlarged by the spell. If you pick up something after the spell is cast it cannot have been enlarged by the casting of the spell.
- Gauss
Can you buy a Pot/OIL of Gravity bow?
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Can you buy a Pot/OIL of Gravity bow?
No. Gravity bow is a personal range spell. Personal range spells cannot be made into a potion or oil.
You can buy a wand of gravity bow, which can then be used via a level dip in ranger, sorc, or wizard, or via UMD. You can also obtain scrolls of gravity bow. Level dip of sorc or wizard can use this, likewise with UMD; scrolls require a CL before being able to use them without UMD, so ranger requires 4 levels before using.
Since an Efficient Quiver works by having nondimensional spaces, would arrows inside of it actually be affected by Enlarge Person, anyway? They're not really on your person at all.. it just happens that the way to get at them is on your person.
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The only effect which should "stack" is the modest increase in damage due to increased strength by reason of the enlarged person spell. Gravity bow should work per normal. I would not permit a "double bump" to arrow size, no matter how clever the ammunition is crafted. To permit this with such a low power spell combination breaks game balance.
Frankly, enlarged person in potion form is already the best low level spell in the game. We don't need to break it more.