this has been brought up on several occasions. So lets use the fighter to improve these other classes. weapon training is huge to both, not too mention full BAB and d10 hitdice. Any other thoughts on this.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by using the fighter to improve the other two classes.
Do you mean improve them with fighter features, or else gestalt them with the fighter class?
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:( I thought this thread was going to be about eating party members.
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Ok... Full BaB, d10, and and bravery go to the rogue. Braver + trap sense = a competence bonus to fort and will saves.
Weapon training goes to the monk, it scales, but only applies to monk weapons.
Both can apply for fighter only feats at a -3.
And done!
if I die first
you all can eat me
You could Gestalt Fighter with all Full BAB classes and all 3/4 BAB non-caster classes. Then you wouldn't be cannibalizing the Fighter as much as you would be making all martial classes different types of Fighters.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by using the fighter to improve the other two classes.
Do you mean improve them with fighter features, or else gestalt them with the fighter class?
gestalt, within reason. The armor training doesn't exactly mesh with monk after all. Mainly the idea is too dissect the fighter and contribute some of it's abilities to the others. maybe some name changes are in order.
if I die firstyou all can eat me
If I die first, they can all eat you.
Ok... Full BaB, d10, and and bravery go to the rogue. Braver + trap sense = a competence bonus to fort and will saves.
Weapon training goes to the monk, it scales, but only applies to monk weapons.
Both can apply for fighter only feats at a -3.
And done!
I think full BAB and d10 should go to both, but rogues get extra feats.
I get where you are going, and Byrdology has proposed an interesting interpretation. I don't think it solves either the monk's or the rogue's issues, though. Monk is still MAD, still has poor enhancement prospects on their primary weapon. Rogue still has a role other classes can do better.
In fact, this does more to detract from the fighter than it adds to the other two.
Merging rogue and fighter is an interesting concept, as they are the 'everyman' heroes. However their roles are radically different and not very compatible.
Both rogue and monk need a combat boost, but one that works with their features and is thematic to them, and the fighter's features aren't really either. I will concede Weapon Training will help the monk, but then it would enhance any combat class.
I agree with dabbler, the fighter just doesn't add enough to either class. I have my own fixes in mind, but the weapon training buff certainly helps the monk more than full BaB and d10's help the rogue.
You want to fix the rogue and monk? Gestalt THEM together. Maybe get rid off some of the supernatural fluff junk in the monk class and call it a well balanced (if still MAD) class in line with the power curve of all the others.
I get where you are going, and Byrdology has proposed an interesting interpretation. I don't think it solves either the monk's or the rogue's issues, though. Monk is still MAD, still has poor enhancement prospects on their primary weapon. Rogue still has a role other classes can do better.
yeah pretty true, although it brings the Monk much closer to Ranger MAD which is definitely more workable. If you apply weapon training and full BAB it reduces the need for inflated attack stats somewhat. the bigger hit dice could actually reduce the Con needs somewhat. Both of which help MAD.
In fact, this does more to detract from the fighter than it adds to the other two.
the fighter would cease to exist with this change
Merging rogue and fighter is an interesting concept, as they are the 'everyman' heroes. However their roles are radically different and not very compatible.
bard stole the show on skills, so they would have to be nerfed in that area to help the rogue, instead by blending rogue and fighter, you actually fixing the fighter, giving it something out of combat to do (better skills) and sneak attack actually sounds like something a trained fighter would know how to do. heck maybe even keep all the armored stuff.
Both rogue and monk need a combat boost, but one that works with their features and is thematic to them, and the fighter's features aren't really either. I will concede Weapon Training will help the monk, but then it would enhance any combat class.
except that the theme of fighters is "trained for fighting", you can't name a martial class outside of possibly barbarian that doesn't train for combat. The better hit dice and BAB help both classes do their jobs. The bonus combat feats actually give the rogue greater versatility, in fact I think if we granted armor training for light armor. It may even be a better patch. Weapon training makes sense to me for Monks because they have a very dedicated list of weapons (unarmed strike included), as a combat class that spends a great deal of time training before even taking their first level. They spend more time with this focused group of weapons, than others do with proficiencies in both simple and martial weapons ( a significantly bigger group of weapons, even if you apply the the amount of time training a single weapon to the entire group). This shows "hey we may not have studied as many styles of attack, but we are better at what we use."
I agree with dabbler, the fighter just doesn't add enough to either class. I have my own fixes in mind, but the weapon training buff certainly helps the monk more than full BaB and d10's help the rogue.
My Mystic Monk design used weapon training as you describe, but that was in conjunction with a whole load of other changes, including getting rid of the pseudo-full BAB and the rising dice of the monk's unarmed strike.
You want to fix the rogue and monk? Gestalt THEM together. Maybe get rid off some of the supernatural fluff junk in the monk class and call it a well balanced (if still MAD) class in line with the power curve of all the others.
They already did that, it's called the Ninja.
yeah pretty true, although it brings the Monk much closer to Ranger MAD which is definitely more workable. If you apply weapon training and full BAB it reduces the need for inflated attack stats somewhat. the bigger hit dice could actually reduce the Con needs somewhat. Both of which help MAD.
They do help MAD, but not a huge amount, and they replace it with a monk that manages to get mega-stats then being overpowered.
In fact, this does more to detract from the fighter than it adds to the other two.the fighter would cease to exist with this change
Not sure I'd really want to do that.
Merging rogue and fighter is an interesting concept, as they are the 'everyman' heroes. However their roles are radically different and not very compatible.bard stole the show on skills, so they would have to be nerfed in that area to help the rogue, instead by blending rogue and fighter, you actually fixing the fighter, giving it something out of combat to do (better skills) and sneak attack actually sounds like something a trained fighter would know how to do. heck maybe even keep all the armored stuff.
Actually, you haven't addressed what many consider to be the biggest weakness of either class: Will saves. What the rogue needs to compete is something to boost his skill ability. What the fighter needs is a little more out-of-combat utility, true, but that does not always mean skills.
Both rogue and monk need a combat boost, but one that works with their features and is thematic to them, and the fighter's features aren't really either. I will concede Weapon Training will help the monk, but then it would enhance any combat class.except that the theme of fighters is "trained for fighting", you can't name a martial class outside of possibly barbarian that doesn't train for combat. The better hit dice and BAB help both classes do their jobs. The bonus combat feats actually give the rogue greater versatility, in fact I think if we granted armor training for light armor. It may even be a better patch. Weapon training makes sense to me for Monks because they have a very dedicated list of weapons (unarmed...
I can see the positive side, I'm not saying there isn't one. I just think that each class needs answered tailored to it, not a further hodge-podge of abilities.
Ninja doesn't count. It should be assimilated back into the rogue in the first place... I'm talking about the monks AC boost, saves, flurry, unarmed dmg, bonus feats, ki pool, and slow fall/ movement combined with SA, trapfinding, rogue talents, and skill selection/ ranks.
That is a good fix. Flavor the class as a rogue, monk, ninja, or batman, and call it a day. Give the fighter a flat bonus to will saves scaling with bravery, 4 skills/ lvl and a few more class skills, and you have saved all 4 (if you must count ninja) classes. At that point the rogue/ monk can afford to be MAD without too many legitimate complaints.
My own suggestions for fixes here. It does not include removing existing classes from play ;)
I think there is a misconception that by merging the rouge with fighter, your somehow not going to be able to play as one or the other. If you really look at it some major flaws with one are major strengths for the other. A new class (lets call it soldier for now) that can actually land sneak attacks at higher levels, isn't squishy, has decent out of combat utility, and an awesome amount of customization that will greatly support any concept for a rouge OR fighter. I will concede a reduction in sneak attack is probably necessary for balance and other tweaks here and there, however 2 classes are easier to fix than 3.
You would be able to play as one or the other, but that's the problem. It's one OR the other, few builds can be both at once. The class themes are too different.
You would be able to play as one or the other, but that's the problem. It's one OR the other, few builds can be both at once. The class themes are too different.
I disagree, I think this can be put together in such a way that you can very much be both at once. That's the beauty of having classes that are that different in role, especially when some of their major failing points are covered by the other class. Need to sneak in to the wizards fortress avoiding the traps along the way, the commando can. Need someone who can take point in a combat situation, the commando can. Need a class that really has liberal customization potential without sacrificing any ability to do anything else, look to the commando. The kicker is I don't think this would take a lot of tweaking to put about the barbarian or ranger's power level. I may flesh it out to see how it looks on paper.
I just don't see the no-nonsense guy in plate armour sneaking about, picking locks.
I just don't see the no-nonsense guy in plate armour sneaking about, picking locks.THAT IS BECAUSE I MADE MY STEALTH CHECK, TRY TAKING PERCEPTION AS A CLASS SKILL! P.S. I STOLE YOUR WALLET
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!! CELESTIAL EAGLE SWARM GO!!!
(Celestial Eagle Swarms are a running joke in our campaigns. Usually because when everything goes to hell we just summon masses of celestial eagles)
What you could try is gestalt the ranger and rogue. 8 skill points, no dmg bonus for favored enemy (just the to hit bonus), take off the animal companion and spells, and give full SA progression and trapfinding. Make it an alternate base class of the ranger.
Why didn't I think of this sooner! I need to go into write up mode.
I just don't see the no-nonsense guy in plate armour sneaking about, picking locks.
I think you not seeing him is kind of the goal here.
:p
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I just don't see the no-nonsense guy in plate armour sneaking about, picking locks.I think you not seeing him is kind of the goal here.
:p
MY HIGH INITIATIVE ALLOWED ME TO MAKE THIS JOKE BEFORE YOU COULD
I BET IT SUCKS TO BE CAUGHT FLAT-FOOTEDTOO BAD THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ME
P.S. I STOLE YOUR WALLET
<Facepalm>
"looks up", I think this is starting to become something...more...than expected.
Combining the rogue and fighter seems like a good quick fix. Personally I would like complex change, but this a lot easier. The one thing I would do is to improve their will saves or at least them have choice between will and reflex.
Combining the rogue and fighter seems like a good quick fix. Personally I would like complex change, but this a lot easier. The one thing I would do is to improve their will saves or at least them have choice between will and reflex.
that was my thinking for this thread.
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OH SORRY I WAS OFF DOING LIKE SIX BACKFLIPS IN A ROW ONTO A TIGHTROPE
DON'T WORRY I TOOK IRON WILL AND INDOMITABLE FAITH SINCE I HAVE SO MANY FEATS TO SPARE NOW SO MY WILL SAVE IS ACTUALLY PRETTY SOLID
P.S. I LOVE YOUR ARMOR, TOO BAD YOU DON'T HAVE ARMOR TRAINING AND A HIGH DEX AS WELL
P.P.S. I STOLE YOUR WALLET
Here is a class that Elghinn Lightbringer put together for me over on the MCA thread .It's a ranger/rogue hybrid that has some pretty serious potential.
While many rangers stalk their prey from blinds or behind bushes, some prefer to seclude themselves in the shadows. Unlike other rangers, dark stalkers are not skilled in combat against specific races. Instead, they have become adept in the art of the sneak attack, which allows them to engage any opponent equally. Through their use of roguish tricks, stealth, and ambush, they can avoid needless injury to themselves or their quarry. While not as adept in various terrains as other rangers, dark stalkers compensate for this shortcoming through sudden and devastating strikes against their foes.
Primary Class: Ranger.
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The dark stalker may select three rogue skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal ranger class skills, one of which must be Disable Device. The dark stalker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The dark stalker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons plus the hand crossbow, with light armor, but not with shields (except tower shields).
Spellcasting: The dark stalker casts divine spells drawn from the ranger spell list, and adds the following spells to that list at the indicated spell levels: 1st level—darkness, illusion of calm, vanish; 2nd level—blur, invisibility; 3rd level—deeper darkness, displacement; 4th level—invisibility (greater). A dark stalker otherwise casts spells as a ranger equal to his dark stalker level.
Sneak Attack: At 1st level, a dark stalker gains the rogues sneak attack ability, except that the extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5d6 at 20th level. This ability replaces favored enemy.
Trapfinding: At 1st level, a dark stalker gains the rogue’s trapfinding ability. This ability replaces wild empathy.
Rogue Talents: At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, a dark stalker gains a rogue talent for which she qualifies. A dark stalker treats his level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for talents with level-dependent requirements and calculating the effects of any talent or rogue ability he's chosen. This ability and advanced talents replace favored terrain.
Hunter’s Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker must select an animal companion, one specifically adept at stealth, such as a small or big cat, an eagle, or similar animal.
Ambush (Ex): At 4th level, a dark stalker becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When he acts in the surprise round, he can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces woodland stride.
Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
Advanced Talents: At 12th level, a dark stalker can choose an advanced rogue talent whenever he could choose a rogue talent, or when she selects the Extra Rogue Talent feat. The dark stalker adds the following rogue abilities to the list of advanced talents he may select: Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. A dark stalker must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge.
Camouflage (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill to hide as long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
Improved Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed as long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
Table: Dark Stalker
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, track, trapfinding — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Combat style feat — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance, rogue talent — — — —
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Hunter’s bond 0 — — —
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Sneak attack +2d6 1 — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Combat style feat, rogue talent 1 — — —
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Ambush 1 0 — —
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Swift tracker 1 1 — —
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Evasion, rogue talent 2 1 — —
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Combat style feat, sneak attack +3d6 2 1 0 —
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Quarry 2 1 1 —
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Advanced talents, camouflage, rogue talent 2 2 1 —
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 3 2 1 0
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Combat style feat 3 2 1 1
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Rogue talent, sneak attack +4d6 3 2 2 1
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Improved evasion 3 3 2 1
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in plain sight 4 3 2 1
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Combat style feat, rogue talent 4 3 2 2
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Improved quarry 4 3 3 2
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Sneak attack +5d6, master hunter 4 4 3 3
I get where you are going, and Byrdology has proposed an interesting interpretation. I don't think it solves either the monk's or the rogue's issues, though. Monk is still MAD, still has poor enhancement prospects on their primary weapon. Rogue still has a role other classes can do better.yeah pretty true, although it brings the Monk much closer to Ranger MAD which is definitely more workable. If you apply weapon training and full BAB it reduces the need for inflated attack stats somewhat. the bigger hit dice could actually reduce the Con needs somewhat. Both of which help MAD.
In fact, this does more to detract from the fighter than it adds to the other two.the fighter would cease to exist with this change
Bad idea. A Fighters mentality is "wheres the fight?" They want to get stuck in so as to do as much damage to the enemy as possible.
A Rogues mentality is to skulk. They want to keep out of cambat until an opportunity presents itself. The two are mutually exclusive, and it is good to have two classes based around them. merging them would be a disaster.Merging rogue and fighter is an interesting concept, as they are the 'everyman' heroes. However their roles are radically different and not very compatible.bard stole the show on skills, so they would have to be nerfed in that area to help the rogue, instead by blending rogue and fighter, you actually fixing the fighter, giving it something out of combat to do (better skills) and sneak attack actually sounds like something a trained fighter would know how to do. heck maybe even keep all the armored stuff.
Why does a fighter need to do something out of combat? They fight. That's what they do. The clue is in the name.
Both rogue and monk need a combat boost, but one that works with their features and is thematic to them, and the fighter's features aren't really either. I will concede Weapon Training will help the monk, but then it would enhance any combat class.except that the theme of fighters is "trained for fighting", you can't name a martial class outside of possibly barbarian that doesn't train for combat. The better hit dice and BAB help both classes do their jobs. The bonus combat feats actually give the rogue greater versatility, in fact I think if we granted armor training for light armor. It may even be a better patch. Weapon training makes sense to me for Monks because they have a very dedicated list of weapons (unarmed...
Can't see any need for rogue to have better BAB. Bonus to hit with sneak attack, yes, but better BAB, no. They are NOT a combat class. Likewise better HD.
Monk, yes. they are a combat class, they should have HD and BAB to reflect that.
I will just throw in my 2 cents here since I see the rogue getting bashed on a lot on these boards from the few I have looked at. The rogue does not need to be fixed as much as players need to back up their rogue in combat. I know combat is hectic and it is hard to convince the wizard to blow one of his precious spells on party buffs. The rogues sneak attacks are devastating but only if the party is setting him up to use it.
Yeah, that's on a level with saying "monks are great, you just need a cleric and wizard to buff them constantly" which is of course highlighting the fact that the class cannot function without support, which then dictates the party tactics just by being there - when the other party members may have their own ideas.
The rogue needs a boost to be effective in combat, just so that he can contribute beyond surprise attack and flanking in case these are not options. He doesn't need to be as good as the other combat classes, but he should have the options to do something.
Having said that I think the rogue could benefit from his sneak attacks being made able to affect any target including undead and other creatures immune to critical hits.
Since Pathfinder was published, everything but oozes, constructs, and elementals are vulnerable to critical hits.
Also maneuverability can be severely underrated so I suggest both the rogue and monk get both speed boosts as well as increase use of escape artist to get out of spells and traps.
Monk is fast enough, the problem with the monk is his speed bonus is an enhancement bonus and clashes with his flurry-of-blows feature. Rogue loses less from moving, but a rogue talent that boosts speed? I do not have issues with that.
Bad idea. A Fighters mentality is "wheres the fight?" They want to get stuck in so as to do as much damage to the enemy as possible.
A Rogues mentality is to skulk. They want to keep out of cambat until an opportunity presents itself. The two are mutually exclusive, and it is good to have two classes based around them. merging them would be a disaster.
I agree absolutely.
Why does a fighter need to do something out of combat? They fight. That's what they do. The clue is in the name.
Because it's all they do, and other classes do it almost as well, or as well, and do a LOT more besides. That's why people choose those the other classes. The fighter needs a boost not because he cannot fight, but because he cannot do anything but fight.
Can't see any need for rogue to have better BAB. Bonus to hit with sneak attack, yes, but better BAB, no. They are NOT a combat class. Likewise better HD.
I agree, although I also think the rogue needs more options in combat. A rogue should be a danger to those that take him on solo, not just a squishee they can swat without blinking. Not saying that he should win, just that he's the sort you fight cautiously, just in case.