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This has been discussed before, if you want to search for other threads on the topic, but several of the reasons I've seen are:
1) During the Dungeon magazine days, Paizo noticed that the later issues of APs didn't sell as well as earlier issues, which they attributed to "higher level stuff doesn't sell as well."
2) APs are done as 6 issues (party so they have something new to showcase at GenCon) and 15 levels crammed into 6 issues works better than 20 levels crammed into 6 issues.
3) higher level adventures are more difficult to publish.
4) Higher level adventures seem to be out of most GM's/Player's "sweet spot."
I'm sure there are plenty others.
-Skeld
I must admit, I'd like to see some suggestions or the like for the last two APs for how a GM could increase the difficulty and experience of the last couple of levels so people DO get to level 20 (if they so want to). I know my Skype group wishes they could reach level 20 in fighting Kazoug, and half of them are in my "Skyrim" group and would probably enjoy seeing a way to play in that 'til they reach 20th level as well.
Of course, with the upcoming Mythic rules, there is likely a way right there by giving the villains a couple Mythic levels so they're a threat for 20th level characters... Paizo? I don't suppose you'd have suggestions posted on how to incorporate Mythic rules to increase the end-level of some of your favorite APs? :) It'd be really appreciated, I'm sure.
Heck, you could probably even publish it as a separate product with modifications for the final adventures to help PCs reach those final levels... or at the very least improving end-bosses so they're a true threat to level 20 characters.
It's because they just don't have room in 6 books to get all the way to 20th level.
They won't do the longer APs you suggest because they want to have a new AP starting often enough that people don't get too bored and wonder off, if you will.
For instance, Skull & Shackles or Jade Regent aren't necessarily for everyone, but if pirates isn't your thing that's ok, just wait 6 months and there'll be a new one out. Wrath of the Righteous is going to be a full 1-20 AP, because with Mythic you can fighter stronger stuff and level up a bit faster than a Core only AP.
Creative Director
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The real reason we haven't done an AP yet that gets to 20th level is because of physics.
Each AP is about 300 pages of adventure content, and due to the way we construct adventures, that gives us a hard limit on the number of encounters we can put in an AP. As it turns out, at 300 pages, that's at BEST enough for an AP to just barely hit 17th level, and even then only if we don't "waste" pages on non-encounter/non-XP awarding things like rules for kingdom building, trials, plays, mass combat, piracy, etc.
With Wrath of the Righteous, though, I suspect we'll be able to hit 20th level. Not because we have more pages... but because mythic characters end up fighting more powerful monsters than their level would suggest, which means they'll earn XP faster. The physical length of the AP is the same as the others, but your PCs will be leveling up more quickly and more often.
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Creative Director
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This has been discussed before, if you want to search for other threads on the topic, but several of the reasons I've seen are:
1) During the Dungeon magazine days, Paizo noticed that the later issues of APs didn't sell as well as earlier issues, which they attributed to "higher level stuff doesn't sell as well."
2) APs are done as 6 issues (party so they have something new to showcase at GenCon) and 15 levels crammed into 6 issues works better than 20 levels crammed into 6 issues.
3) higher level adventures are more difficult to publish.
4) Higher level adventures seem to be out of most GM's/Player's "sweet spot."I'm sure there are plenty others.
-Skeld
Of the four reasons above... reason #2 is 98% of the reason.
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They do give suggestions for how to extend the AP if you wish to, you just need to do a bit of homebrewing as far as specific encounters go. Not quite the same, but it's workable.
Well, Mr. Jacobs, do consider my suggestion of a softcover product that provides advice on how to incorporate Mythic into several of your other APs so they can reach level 20 as well. :) Even if you just sold it as a PDF file, I'm sure there'd be a market for it.
That said, I'm going to look into methods of beefing up the end of Runelords so my group can reach level 20. And no doubt I'll do something similar with Reign of Winter. :) (It won't be as hard as I started Runelords off at level 2 and beefed the difficulty of encounters... and shifted a level 3-4 group into the start of Reign of Winter and modified things to be tougher to compensate.)
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Of the four reasons above... reason #2 is 98% of the reason.This has been discussed before, if you want to search for other threads on the topic, but several of the reasons I've seen are:
1) During the Dungeon magazine days, Paizo noticed that the later issues of APs didn't sell as well as earlier issues, which they attributed to "higher level stuff doesn't sell as well."
2) APs are done as 6 issues (party so they have something new to showcase at GenCon) and 15 levels crammed into 6 issues works better than 20 levels crammed into 6 issues.
3) higher level adventures are more difficult to publish.
4) Higher level adventures seem to be out of most GM's/Player's "sweet spot."I'm sure there are plenty others.
-Skeld
Wow, I got something right? This is new territory for me. It's very Strange. And slightly uncomfortable....
-Skeld
Of the four reasons above... reason #2 is 98% of the reason....
2) APs are done as 6 issues (party so they have something new to showcase at GenCon) and 15 levels crammed into 6 issues works better than 20 levels crammed into 6 issues.
...-Skeld
You mentioned in passing at one point that an experimental year of a 7 issue AP and a 5 issue AP might be a possibility. Is that still a maybe? (I realise there werent any plans for that at the time, but wondered if it's more of a vague potential or something you have seriously considered).
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Creative Director
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You mentioned in passing at one point that an experimental year of a 7 issue AP and a 5 issue AP might be a possibility. Is that still a maybe? (I realise there werent any plans for that at the time, but wondered if it's more of a vague potential or something you have seriously considered).Of the four reasons above... reason #2 is 98% of the reason....
2) APs are done as 6 issues (party so they have something new to showcase at GenCon) and 15 levels crammed into 6 issues works better than 20 levels crammed into 6 issues.
...-Skeld
It's still a very very indefinite maybe. We always want to launch an AP at Gen Con, so doing something like this would be kinda weird, first of all; we'd have to time it right with Gen Con and everything else. And it would have to overcome my OCD about each AP being 6 parts long. Which is also significant. In the end, I really don't see it happening... but never say never, I guess.
Ah well - I'll keep my fingers crossed you get a sudden hankering for change (or think of a couple of stories you want to tell: one which just couldnt possibly fit and one that would drag*). I'd be interested to see the difference in a short and a long AP. Thematically we have a broad selection, but a slight variation in scope would be a nice change.
(I presumed if it'd happen you'd time one of them to start at GenCon and then "catch up" with the subsequent one, so the timing would only be off for the February/March "changeover").
* EDIT: actually I guess it's more complicated now. I'll have to hope you think of a long, all-the-way-to-level-20 AP and that Rob thinks of a quick one he'd be interested in making (or vice versa).
I think we shouldn't completely discount the effect of using the medium XP track has on the adventure. I think I preferred when the earlier APs were using the fast track, there seemed to be less "filler" encounters in the later modules and the party usually ended the AP at a higher level.
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Creative Director
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I think we shouldn't completely discount the effect of using the medium XP track has on the adventure. I think I preferred when the earlier APs were using the fast track, there seemed to be less "filler" encounters in the later modules and the party usually ended the AP at a higher level.
The difference between medium and fast isn't that huge. I crunched the numbers often, most recently for the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, and the Fast Track, in the end, only ends up with PCs being 1 level higher.
Which, as far as my players go, can still be significant. One of the most common complaints I hear from them is that "we used to play until level 20". Every AP which finishes early ( most at level 16, it seems ) is somewhat of a disappointment to them.
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Which, as far as my players go, can still be significant. One of the most common complaints I hear from them is that "we used to play until level 20". Every AP which finishes early ( most at level 16, it seems ) is somewhat of a disappointment to them.
Recalibrate their expectations. When you announce a new campaign, don't you tell them something like, "This campaign starts and level 1 and ends at level 16, +/- 1 level"?
-Skeld
Of course I do. Same answer.
Why not start off players at 2nd level and then increase the CR of encounters by one or two to increase their earned XPs? Then make sure to add in several random encounters for each module so they get extra XPs. You're likely to push for level 19 or 20 in that case. (I started my Runelords game off at 2nd level and have done just that. And plan on increasing random encounters further to help ensure they level.)
The other thing to do is stop giving out XPs and just tell them when they level. Pace it out so that they'll make level 20 in time for the final battle... and beef up the last few encounters by +2 CR (you could add a couple class levels or Prestige levels, for example) to ensure the fight remains tough. :)
They do give suggestions for how to extend the AP if you wish to, you just need to do a bit of homebrewing as far as specific encounters go. Not quite the same, but it's workable.
You´re right, is not the same!!
as a GM you can create something neat for your party needs, Carrion Crown isn´t so easy to run, it has a lot of holes (like the missconnection between adventures).Im still running it, Beginning 4th adventure (included boths add ons, and Carrion Hill module). also i recommendo you take the Night Harrows guild as recurrent enemies, and at the end, check the Dungeons of Golarion, there are some ideas about fighting the lich king.
If all of this do not fit well with you, then, made your own path after the last adventure, or make more encounters in the transition from town to town.
How would Paizo feel about a free fanzine (something Wayfinderesque) publishing Level 17-20 "AP Cap" adventures for the existing Adventure Paths? Would that be cool, or is Paizo opposed to the idea. If permission were granted, I could see it potentially being a fun community project.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The biggest challenge about making that work with our Community Use Policy is that, while you may descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations and characters from our AP volumes, you may not descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from those products. So you have to do it in a way that avoids talking about what came before. But as long as you're careful and clever, it's very possible.
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I can sympathize. Capstones are shiny.
Personally, I dont think there's anything wrong with just granting the capstone ability at whatever you think is likely to be the final level of the campaign.
.It's kind of "overpowered" in the sense that those sixteenth level characters are better than other sixteenth level characters, but from an internal consistency sense it doesnt make much difference and gets you a chance to use those neat gadgets you've had your eye on for all those levels.
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Creative Director
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Personally, I dont think there's anything wrong with just granting the capstone ability at whatever you think is likely to be the final level of the campaign.
This.
Oh my god how I wish we'd put this in print in the core rules. "Your capstone ability can be gained at the final level planned for your campaign."
Of course, I also wish we'd given a capstone ability to clerics... but that's a different story.
Why didn't you? Just curious, really. I mean, you didn't give a capstone ability to universalist wizards either, I believe.
Personally, I dont think there's anything wrong with just granting the capstone ability at whatever you think is likely to be the final level of the campaign.This.
Oh my god how I wish we'd put this in print in the core rules. "Your capstone ability can be gained at the final level planned for your campaign."
Of course, I also wish we'd given a capstone ability to clerics... but that's a different story.
Well, it's not as if you guys are impotent to change things in, uh, your game. ^^ Errata is always possible ( if not always practical, which I do understand ).
Actually, you can't just "add" one page. I'm not sure if current printing methods are similar to the old ones, but it would be impossible to add just one page to a print run of an old-style. You might be able to add four... but I'm not positive on that.
It's because they start with much larger sheets of paper which are folded multiple times before being cut and bound.
It also depends on the size of the product. The 16 might be for a hardcover or softcover book, rather than a magazine-sized product. But thanks. :)
If you want an adventure path which goes up all the way to Level 20 check out this:
http://firemountaingames.com/products.html
Written for and 100% compatible to Pathfinder.
And for the physics most Paizo AP .pdf files have 96-100 pages, the Fire Mountain AP ones have 100-111, so I would say its doable to cover 20 levels without major changes to the product line.
If you do the numbers the FM ones have about 8 pages more at average than the ones from Paizo which means 4 more sheets of paper for a printed product. If Paizo would just drop the story chapter from their APs this would free up 6 pages at average already so only 1 sheet of paper would have to be added.
Definitely doable in my opinion without even a decline in quality.
There was a discussion about this roughly a month or two ago. The bottom line: IF they were to ever the cut the fiction (unlikely) those freed up pages would go to the supplement articles and NOT the adventure itself. The adventure will always hover around the page count it's at now. Why? Because it's an issue of author turnover for word count within the rapid month-to-month timetable they work on. It's not a matter of needing extra page space. They're at the point where they have pretty much maximized what's possible for a monthly rotation.
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Creative Director
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Why didn't you? Just curious, really. I mean, you didn't give a capstone ability to universalist wizards either, I believe.
Because I'm not on the design team, and because not all of my ideas are things they feel need to be in the rules, and because I try to be a team player and defer to their judgement for the game even if I might personally have differing opinions.
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Okay. Let me expand upon that then. ;) Why did the design team choose not to give capstone abilities to Clerics or Generalist Wizards? It almost seems... odd seeing the capstone is meant to encourage a player to stick with a sole class instead of bouncing between several classes.
I was curious why an AP couldn't be developed that started at, say, 4th level and went to 18th-20th rather than 1st to 15th?
Some of the folks in our group loathe the first 2 levels of any campaign and feel more heroic when they reach level 3 or 4. I recognize that may not be representative of the larger player base, however.
Okay. Let me expand upon that then. ;) Why did the design team choose not to give capstone abilities to Clerics or Generalist Wizards? It almost seems... odd seeing the capstone is meant to encourage a player to stick with a sole class instead of bouncing between several classes.
Because those classes already are awesomely powerful and sticking with them gives you huge rewards, against which, frankly said, the capstones of other classes are just lackluster. A single extra level 9 spell per day is way, way better than any "save vs. death... if you manage to hit me" effect.
Except that Specialist Wizards all get Capstone abilities. So why not the Generalist? And what makes a level 20 Cleric so much more awesome than a level 20 Druid or a level 20 Specialist Wizard?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Well, it's not as if you guys are impotent to change things in, uh, your game. ^^ Errata is always possible ( if not always practical, which I do understand ).
Errata is about fixing things that are broken; adding *new* rules is a different thing altogether. New rules are added to the game in new books, not quietly slipped in to new printings of existing books. Doing that would annoy a lot of people.
Except that Specialist Wizards all get Capstone abilities. So why not the Generalist? And what makes a level 20 Cleric so much more awesome than a level 20 Druid or a level 20 Specialist Wizard?
That's true, although I think my point still stands: Those classes are already awesome, they don't really need to be awesome-er at the last possible level of the game.
Well, it's not as if you guys are impotent to change things in, uh, your game. ^^ Errata is always possible ( if not always practical, which I do understand ).Errata is about fixing things that are broken; adding *new* rules is a different thing altogether. New rules are added to the game in new books, not quietly slipped in to new printings of existing books. Doing that would annoy a lot of people.
Fair enough, although I think the fixes to the Monk from a few months ago are kind of a borderline case. But I do know the problems with new rules for existing classes, James explained that at length a few months ago.
Which is why I am not as averse to the very idea of a new edition a few years down the line as many other people here are. I only hope that you guys do a gigantic round of feedback gathering before committing to your own ideas when it happens. ;)
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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You know... an AP that ran from 5th to 20th would be fun because it would allow the GM to introduce the characters in a module or modules. Using the new larger adventure modules format, you could now slot any one of them in as a "first" AP chapter. Segue from The Dragon's Demand into The Shiny New AP or what have you... Hmm.
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Creative Director
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You know... an AP that ran from 5th to 20th would be fun because it would allow the GM to introduce the characters in a module or modules. Using the new larger adventure modules format, you could now slot any one of them in as a "first" AP chapter. Segue from The Dragon's Demand into The Shiny New AP or what have you... Hmm.
You'll note that one thing we do with every AP is make assumptions about what the PCs are before they started the adventure—where they're from, what their specialities are, etc. That's essentially what each AP's player's guide is doing, along with its campaign traits. Those kind of assumptions, as well as some APs that start out with big events that set thing up in a specific way (such as Serpent's Skull or the upcoming Wrath of the Righteous) become more and more difficult when we can't assume the PCs are 1st level new characters.
But even if we did... the vast majority of people want to start campaigns with 1st level characters. And due to the way the XP point curve bends, the mix of monsters we have available in bestiaries still, and the physical constraints of how big an adventure can be in an AP installment... starting at 5th level would probably only let us hit 18th level anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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You know... an AP that ran from 5th to 20th would be fun because it would allow the GM to introduce the characters in a module or modules. Using the new larger adventure modules format, you could now slot any one of them in as a "first" AP chapter. Segue from The Dragon's Demand into The Shiny New AP or what have you... Hmm.You'll note that one thing we do with every AP is make assumptions about what the PCs are before they started the adventure—where they're from, what their specialities are, etc. That's essentially what each AP's player's guide is doing, along with its campaign traits. Those kind of assumptions, as well as some APs that start out with big events that set thing up in a specific way (such as Serpent's Skull or the upcoming Wrath of the Righteous) become more and more difficult when we can't assume the PCs are 1st level new characters.
But even if we did... the vast majority of people want to start campaigns with 1st level characters. And due to the way the XP point curve bends, the mix of monsters we have available in bestiaries still, and the physical constraints of how big an adventure can be in an AP installment... starting at 5th level would probably only let us hit 18th level anyway.
Those are all good points towards keeping the standard framework. I guess the only real high-level content post 16th-17th we can hope for will be in the new Modules format.
James, with the new page count of PF modules, what kind of high-level range do you think could be achieved? Is it enough to run a full capstone on an AP from say 17th-20th, or would that be trying to squeeze too much in?
I too, really like the idea of having high level modules that tie into APs but can also easily be standalone adventures.
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Creative Director
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James, with the new page count of PF modules, what kind of high-level range do you think could be achieved? Is it enough to run a full capstone on an AP from say 17th-20th, or would that be trying to squeeze too much in?
At 64 pages, a module is about 15 to 20 pages longer than a typical adventure path installment.
For an adventure that starts at 1st level, that means a 64 page adventure can hit 6th level, or MAYBE 7th level by the end of the last fight.
For higher level adventures, that range decreases, but I could see a 64 pager covering 2 or even 3 levels above 14th. Not enough, I fear, to run a full 17th to 20th level adventure. MAYBE enough to do a 17th to 19th with things ending at 20th, but that's kinda sucky to not actually get to play at 20th at all.
You could do a 2-part module series, with one part having the PCs at 17th and 18th (ending at 19th after the final encounter), and the other having the PCs at 19th and 20th (ending at "21st" after the final encounter).
(or a 4-part module series, with each at a single level, but I suspect that tying up that much of the module line into a single high-level series would be a bad idea).
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Chief Technical Officer
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You could do a 2-part module series, with one part having the PCs at 17th and 18th (ending at 19th after the final encounter), and the other having the PCs at 19th and 20th (ending at "21st" after the final encounter).
(or a 4-part module series, with each at a single level, but I suspect that tying up that much of the module line into a single high-level series would be a bad idea).
Since the larger modules are quarterly, and we're still using one slot each year for the RPG Superstar winner, even a two-parter would block up the schedule pretty thoroughly.
Hey, at least the next AP will go through level 20. ;)
But this situation calls for more CR 15-20 critters, obviously! Time for the Beastiary 4 Book! =^-^=
Since the larger modules are quarterly, and we're still using one slot each year for the RPG Superstar winner, even a two-parter would block up the schedule pretty thoroughly.
Thanks for clarifying that!
Well, I'll still be happy with the occasional Moonscar and Witchwar Legacy :)
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Why not do one big 12 volume year long AP that goes from level 1-20?
More than enough time to get there and more than enough room to expand on anything you want to.
- Torger