Hullo.
Possibly this belongs in Advice, because it's partly about rules interpretation and GM judgement, but I don't know...
In an upcoming home-game adventure set in a homebrew world, starting at 5th level, I am considering playing a ghoul. The GM has tentatively OK'd this, but he and I are trying to figure out how to make it work without me becoming OP. I'm planning on playing a ninja. It's a 20-point buy.
So, having read "Monsters As PCs" in the Bestiary, I still have a lot of questions. I'm not sure if there are any official rulings or just good commonsense advice to be had on these points, but either'd be greatly appreciated:
1. Since a Ghoul is CR 1, does that mean by level 5 I'll have caught up to the other PCs and be able to be a level 5 ninja, or will a CR 1 monster forever be 1 level behind all other PCs?
2. What's a good way to calculate ability score modifiers for a ghoul? Is there some system? I'm guessing not, since I know PF isn't really focused on players taking monsters as characters, but I'm just asking to make sure.
3. Would my paralysis and disease abilities have their DCs level with my class levels, or would they remain the same?
Any help would be very much appreciated. Also, apologies if I put this in the wrong sub-forum.
2. What's a good way to calculate ability score modifiers for a ghoul? Is there some system? I'm guessing not, since I know PF isn't really focused on players taking monsters as characters, but I'm just asking to make sure.
Subtract 10 from even scores, and 11 from odd scores. That will give you the ghouls ability modifiers. At least, that was how it was done for 3.5 D&D. Pathinder should be the same. (A ghoul would therefore have +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, and +4 Charisma. It has no Constitution score.)
3. Would my paralysis and disease abilities have their DCs level with my class levels, or would they remain the same?
The DC for a monsters special abilities is 10 + 1/2 the monsters hit dice + a certain ability score modifier (for ghouls disease and paralysis, this is Charisma modifier). So as you gain levels (and so gain hit dice), the DCs should rise.
1. You only gain extra levels equal to half the CR of the monster rounded down. As CR 1 ghoul, you will always progress normally and will never gain extra levels. So one level behind forever.
2. Technically "Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11". So for a ghoul that's +2 strength, +4 dex, +2 int, +4 wis, +4 cha. However, I'd regard that more as a guideline than anything.
3. The DC for disease and paralysis is 10 + 1/2 racial hit dice + CON modifier. As an undead, you use CHA instead of CON, so the only way to improve this is to improve your CHA score.
Aha. Cheers for the quick replies, guys!
Hmm...now I just have to figure out whether lagging a level behind is worth it for all the ghoulish perks.
Since you're doing a ninja you're already playing one of the weaker classes, so nobody should think you're OP.
I say you should be fine.
If you want to play a caster you could get the magical knack trait to take the hurt off of being a level behind
Hmm...now I just have to figure out whether lagging a level behind is worth it for all the ghoulish perks.
One of the nice things about undead is that they effectively get to fold their constitution and charisma scores into a single attribute. This makes charisma very nice for undead, especially with a class like ninja that can put it to good use.
Also keep in mind that although your class level will lag one behind, your hit dice will be one ahead of your party members. This means better attack bonus, hit dice, saving throws, and slightly faster feat acquisition. Overall I think it's a good deal with those nice stat modifiers.
The 3.25 supplement Savage Species lists ghouls as a 2 HD creature that deserves a +3 level adjustment, for your interest.
The 'issues' I'm seeing here are that you have incredible ability scores without penalty, two natural attacks, a disease and paralysis (to which immunity is rarely earned, and makes all creatures susceptible to your sneak attacks -- a very good synergy of race and class). Even if you prefer taking a manufactured weapon, at the end of your career you're getting a bonus sneak attack opportunity without two-weapon penalties. The real trick would be to figure out what manufactured weapon you could attack with without using a hand, so you could get your three iterative attacks plus both paralyzing claws ...
Even strictly considering the fact that a CR 1 ghoul has 2 racial hit dice, that means you'd quality for feats and abilities an effective level earlier than other characters. While other people turn 7th level, get their 7th rank in a skill and can take Improved Blah, you've had that for a level already.
Even strictly considering the ghoul just as a monster that could take class levels, giving it two rogue levels for the price of one doesn't look balanced to me. A ghoul is a stealthy combat monster, and a rogue is a stealthy combat class -- I think rogue is an associated class for a ghoul. Putting two levels of sorceror on a troll may be worth just a 1 CR increase, but you're going to see this be FAR more effective.
Hopefully that should help you ballpark what a ghoul should be. I don't see any abilities on the creature that make me think, "at ECL 20 this ability is now worthless and shouldn't be counted against the creature" other than maybe ghoul fever. Not only would I give no discount on rogue levels, I'd have to think about whether the basic ghoul is already effectively a second-level character, or more.
Additional thought: I seem to recall a little bit of barbarian could get you a bite attack, which brings you your third attack -- something the pure rogue doesn't get until BAB +11 at level 15. Even better, the ghoul with bonus bite attack doesn't have the penalties that an iterative attacker would.
Can't normally stealth while raging though, so there's that. But there's also ways around that.
But the paralysis only increases its DC through racial HD, so that'll become irrelevant pretty quickly. Those ability score mods are insane, though. I mean, even at higher levels, +4 is still +4, and to three abilities no less. Hmm...maybe I should just go with the ability score mods of whatever race I was (human, I think) before I dun got bit and turned into a ghoulish-like creature, to quote Dave Chapelle.
If I was doing this, I'd skip the Monster-as-PC rules and spec out a ghoul PC race via the ARG rules to land it in the power-range of the other allowed races so you don't have to sweat two progression systems. I also think the ARG race creator is well balanced.
If I was doing this, I'd skip the Monster-as-PC rules and spec out a ghoul PC race via the ARG rules to land it in the power-range of the other allowed races so you don't have to sweat two progression systems. I also think the ARG race creator is well balanced.
The 'problem' with PFRPG/ARG is they 'kinda' got rid of level adjustments. What makes the ARG function is the balance being across every character, all having a similar point value. This isn't to knock the ARG, just pointing out it fails to solve the problem the OP is running into. It is based on the assumption all characters races in the party are at the same 'level' or point total.
Having one character with a custom made race (which will have a higher point value even with striped down ghoul abilities) still creates an imbalance between the other core races and the custom race. This is where the LA (with buy out) worked extremely well. At lower levels the power difference is more apparent, then as you level up the difference diminishes (and you can buy out the LA every couple of levels) to the point where at the later levels where the race abilities matter less, you are only slightly (if at all) behind the rest of the party.
Well, creating ghouls with the ARG rules like they did for lizardmen and gnolls I guess could work. Although, yeah, it'll still become sort of unbalanced. I mean, I'd like it to be a real ghoul, and just giving it all the undead traits'll cost 20 Race Points, I think. Then again, that's still less than a svirfneblin.
I'm wondering, though...would the undead immunities and such considered to be outweighed by the fact that they're destroyed at 0 HP and have a tougher time getting healed (in a non-evil party) and also are easier to mind-control than living creatures? If a comparison's to be made with the non-undead party members, I mean.
The problem with monster races is that power that have a certain value in one fight have a different value when used constantly.
Another issue is that a monster race might start out strong, but class abilities are stronger than racial HD so the other PC's may bypass him. I know it seem fun to allow the players to use whatever they want, butit may be an issue later on.
The fact that ghouls can paralyse with their attacks is almost like spamming SoD's.
I would at least have a houserule saying that a creature only has to save once within 24 hours if subjected to it.
edit:Ghouls are immune to mind-affecting so they would be more difficult to control. Their racial HD also have the good will save progression. They are also immune to most things that require a fortitude save.
1. You will catch up half way between levels 3 and 4.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels.2. You don't have to figure out the base stats, you just adjust them.
Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities.3. The DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + CHA modifier.
The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier.