As I understand it, if my grappler pins a target, subsequent grapple checks made to do damage would deal sneak attack damage as well, as the pinned target is denied its bonus to Dexterity. If so, the Strangler feat is only useful if you don't want to bother taking the action to pin the target first, and is completely inferior to Rapid Grappler as a build choice.
Or, am I reading that wrong? Even if you've pinned your target, would you need the Strangler feat to deal Sneak Attack damage? If so, then a high-level rogue/grappler would need Strangler, or at least to tie up his victim first, and Rapid Grappler would be useless compared to those other two options.
Which reading of the pinned rules is correct?
You're reading it right, but the major benefit of Strangler over Rapid Grappler is you can get Strangler at level 3 (2 if you take combat trick for it), whereas RG isn't obtainable for a rogue until lvl 12 (pesky +9 bab requirement).
Well yes, but personally after reviewing them, I think the best options are combining Strangler and Pinning Knockout, or Equipment Trick (rope) and Rope Master. The first option you have to also wait until level 12, but you'll do double your sneak attack damage in nonlethal on the first post-beginning grapple, meaning you should be able to knock most people out in a round or two, and you can at least have strangler starting at level 2. The second option lets you grapple them and hogtie them on the first post-beginning grapple, with only a -1 to your escape artist DC: they're not out of the fight and could escape, but it's not likely, especially since every attack you make against a poor tied-up guy deals sneak attack damage.
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Strangler is situational feat bordering on trap feat.
Because 3/4 BAB grappler classes with sneak attack don't qualify for Greater Grapple until L8, Strangler seems like the solution to improve grapple action economy.
Simple truth is if opponent grappled but not yet pinned and you not built for maximum grapple damage, it better to progress to a pin THEN grapple for damage (and get sneaky attack in). Since this is will be your modus operandi, Strangler is waste of feat.
Bruno would call Strangler poor man's Constrict, but that would be grave insult to the poor man.
Strangler only triggers in very specific conditions (grapple to maintain AND grapple to do due damage) and costs a Swift Action.
Constrict triggers automatically any time you make success grapple check (but only to creature your size or smaller).
If Bruno make tricksy Ninja or Rogue who pretended to be beautiful and handsome Tetori, Bruno would still stay away from Strangler like it Pugwumpi wearing lipstick.
Strangler is situational feat bordering on trap feat.
Because 3/4 BAB grappler classes with sneak attack don't qualify for Greater Grapple until L8, Strangler seems like the solution to improve grapple action economy.
Simple truth is if opponent grappled but not yet pinned and you not built for maximum grapple damage, it better to progress to a pin THEN grapple for damage (and get sneaky attack in). Since this is will be your modus operandi, Strangler is waste of feat.
Bruno would call Strangler poor man's Constrict, but that would be grave insult to the poor man.
Strangler only triggers in very specific conditions (grapple to maintain AND grapple to do due damage) and costs a Swift Action.
Constrict triggers automatically any time you make success grapple check (but only to creature your size or smaller).
If Bruno make tricksy Ninja or Rogue who pretended to be beautiful and handsome Tetori, Bruno would still stay away from Strangler like it Pugwumpi wearing lipstick.
Bruno I think you are being short sighted re:Strangler!
Strangler is an awesome feat!!! Any character using it will be investing high into grapple & bonuses from feats & magic to make up for 3/4 BAB. Also most will dip in something like unarmed fighter or another full BAB class!Why waste more time to pin a target to do damage? You then lose your dex modifier & are a target for others!! Grapple (maintain) & then dmg + sneak attack damage.
Rinse & repeat till they are dead!
Also get body shield so you can get some protection from others attacking you.
As far as being denied your DEX bonus read this. They are not denied their DEX bonus so you need Strangler to inflict your sneak attack!
Constrict is great IF you are a monster that has the ability!!!
Also constrict does not do sneak attack damage!!!
CONSTRICT
*A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.
Format: constrict (1d8+6); Location: Special Attacks.
Also if you were to get constrict then great & do both!
Grapple (maintain), constrict damage, regular damage, swift action for Strangler!!!!
This is in the grappling rules in the SRD.
Editor's Note: Grappling
There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:
Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?
No.
When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.
[Source]
Editor's Note: All of the updates have been applied.
As I understand it, if my grappler pins a target, subsequent grapple checks made to do damage would deal sneak attack damage as well, as the pinned target is denied its bonus to Dexterity. If so, the Strangler feat is only useful if you don't want to bother taking the action to pin the target first, and is completely inferior to Rapid Grappler as a build choice.
Or, am I reading that wrong? Even if you've pinned your target, would you need the Strangler feat to deal Sneak Attack damage? If so, then a high-level rogue/grappler would need Strangler, or at least to tie up his victim first, and Rapid Grappler would be useless compared to those other two options.
Which reading of the pinned rules is correct?
Read my above post but here are the rules.
This is in the grappling rules in the SRD.
Editor's Note: Grappling
There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:
Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?
No.
When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.
[Source]
Editor's Note: All of the updates have been applied.
