A quick note on MAD vs SAD

[Ilja]

I really don't think the issue is that some classes are single ability dependant and some are multiple ability dependant. The issue is that the game design treats the value of a score as equal for SAD and MAD classes.

Currently, for example, the DC of a class ability is usually equal to 10+1/2 level+Ability Score. The effect of class abilities are usually within the same range and mostly are save for no effect.

This means the misfortune hex of a witch, which is SAD and can buff it's intelligence to about 18+1/2 level without large issues, will be much much harder to resist than the stunning blow of a Monk, which is MAD and has a wis of maybe 16+1/3 level (or less). The effects are both save or no effect and I think they're about equal in power level WHEN THEY WORK.

To abstract things a bit more, if classes mainly get offense, defense and utility (in different amounts of course) from their class abilities, the issue is that a SAD character like a wizard gets offense, defense and utility from it's Intelligence. Meanwhile, someone like the monk relies on it's strength for offense, dex and wisdom for defense and wisdom for utility. Both of course also require a decent amount of con, but let's ignore that for the moment as they're equal in that.

The issue is that if the wizard gets X offense, X defense and X utility from Int, and the monk gets X offense from str, 1/2X defense from wis, 1/2X defense from dex, and X utility from wis, there's a disparity. For it to work well, the monk needs to get 2X offense from str, X defense from wis and dex each and 2X utility from wis (or some similar inflated value).

A MAD character needs to get more from each score, or more abilities not tied to ability scores, than a SAD character.

For example, in the case above about special abilities of the classes, there are four main ways to do this:
1. Increase the DC of abilities of MAD classes. I dislike this because I like the symmetry.
2. Increase the effect on a failed save against MAD classes abilities; basically let them gain more powerful abilities but let them still be easier to resist.
3. Have the abilities have an effect on a successful check. In the case of stunning blow, for example, something like dazzled&-2 on acrobatics for a round or another "meh" effect.
4. Allow them to use the abilities much more freely to allow the abilities to trigger more. Stunning blow is 1/round only, and 1/day/level only. Making it "any number of times per round but only once in each full-attack routine" and/or doubling number of times per day would make it a much more useful ability (for example).
It's very possible to make super-MAD classes balanced with super-SAD classes.

Now, PF has done a little of that, but also reduced the MAD of classes (for example dropping Wis as a relevant ability score for paladins). I generally like MAD classes more than SAD, and honestly think all ability scores should be useful (though not mandatory) for all classes. But that's kind of a different topic and relates to the general weakness of skills. Well well.

Thoughts?

[Mortuum]

MAD is still the problem, you're just suggesting compensating for it in new ways rather than removing it or adding power to MAD classes in a different area. A third solution would be to make SAD classes more MAD.

Broadly speaking I agree.

[Atarlost]

Making the SAD classes MAD doesn't work without also changing save DC scaling for class abilities.

By bestiary table 1-1 poor monster saves should scale only slightly slower than CR and good saves slightly faster. I'm not sure how that's supposed to work with CR 20 monsters having as many as 34 HD according to table 1-2. I think someone goofed in writing the guidelines.

If a SAD key stat scales at 18+1/2 level and a MAD key stat at 16+1/3 level as Ilja claims a SAD classes ability DCs will scale at 14+3/4 level, going from a 12 to pass for a CR 1 monster against a level 1 character to a 12 to pass for a CR 20 monster against a level 20 character. A MAD classes class abilities will not keep pace and get weaker as they level up.

It is easier to adjust 17 classes and alternate classes so the DCs scale at a rate appropriate to the contents of the bestiaries than to adjust 4 hardcovers full of monsters so their saving throws are appropriate to the saving throw DCs of the PC classes.

If PCs are to continue to use the same 10+level/2+stat DC formula as monsters all classes need to be made SAD rather than MAD.

[Ilja]

Atarlost: Or one could simply empower the MAD classes more. The Paladin is a good example of a quite MAD class that seems to do well (has two high priority and two medium priority ability scores, comparable with rogue and monk in that respect) because it's been given enough power.

Abilities having less and less chance to work doesn't necessarily have to break the game for a class, if it's chances to use that ability increases. If, for example, stunning blow was usable on every single attack (which I think would be overkill, but just as an example), then it starts out with maybe 50% chance to work and two tries per round if flurrying (75% chance of success), and ends up with 20% chance to work and seven tries per round if flurrying (79% chance of success). Of course if it doesn't get more uses per day they would run out very quickly, but it was just an example of how it can easily be compensated for in class design.

Being SAD is a benefit, but it's not a benefit that can't be compensated for with other things. Thus, it's not as simple as "the issue is the class is MAD" just as saying about lacking melee classes "the issue is that it's medium BAB", because you can have a medium BAB class that can do fine in melee (synthesist, alchemist, druid). Increasing BAB is one possible solution, but isn't the only one and not necessarily the preferable one.

EDIT: One more thing to note in respect to save DC's is that the SAD classes such as casters generally have more ways to boost their DC's than the MAD classes such as monks. Ability focus is rules-fuzzy, and other than that there's nearly nothing. Meanwhile, like half of the popular arcane schools and bloodlines have a save DC-boosting effect and there's feats and rods of persistance that make it even more powerful.
There's nothing like that for monks and others.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Well perhaps one way to deal with the Sad,VS Mad problem, is in character creation.

Now I am sure there will be plenty of howling at how unfair this is, but perhaps you could have the SAD characters use a 15 point build, and the MAD characters use a 20 point build.

Maybe that would level things out a bit between Sad VS Mad......not that players would like it.

Its just a thought.

[Worldbuilder]

I have a buddy I play with online. His live group still plays 3.5. He tells me his GM has custom buys for each class individually and it works pretty well. He plays mostly full casters, and he says he never feels weaker than the rest of the party with a 5-15 point lower stat-buy. Never tried it myself, but seems that may work.

[Devilkiller]

Why do you feel that Ability Focus is rules fuzzy? I guess you might feel that it isn't clear Stunning Fist is a "special attack", but if you check the stat block for a 14th level NPC Monk you'll see Stunning Fist listed in the "Special Attacks" line. The fact that feats from the Bestiary aren't allowed in PFS play also seems to make some people feel that they shouldn't be available in non-PFS games. This seems odd to me since the same logic isn't generally extended to other feats banned in PFS such as Brew Potion or Scribe Scroll.

Anyhow, Stunning Fist is an extra you can add to an attack or full attack, so the consequences of it failing aren't as disappointing as those of many hexes or spells which eat up a standard action failing. Of course this just relates to that particular ability rather than MAD vs SAD in general. Do you have other examples of MAD abilities which make you sad?

[Bruunwald]

As long as we aren't talking about BADD.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

One option is to use a higher point buy or more generous attribute rolling. I have DM'd allowing players an array of 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, and roll 4d6/reroll 1s/drop the lowest for the sixth score. A monk, ranger, rogue, or any MAD class does very well with a very high array. SAD classes benefit less from a high array, but a player playing a wizard or fighter never complains about the high stats. A monk with a starting 18 in str, dex, and wis is extremely powerful, while a wizard with a starting 18 in int, dex, and con is only slightly more powerful than a 20-pt buy wizard.

I know extremely high stats don't appeal to everyone (and require treating the average party level as one or two higher), but in my experience it makes MAD vs. SAD work.

[Grey Lensman]

MAD vs SAD is part of the reason my group uses a 20 point buy rather than the standard 15. You can only raise a single stat so much before you have to put the points elsewhere.