You create a race with almost three times the the RP of a regular player race, and yet you wonder if it is overpowered?
Yes. Yes it is.
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Dwarves aren't even listed at half the amount of RP, and they are a better racial package.
Bonuses to two martial defensive stats with a penalty to the classic preferred martial dumpstat
+2-5 to 80% of every saving throw you make, depending on whether or not they took a racially exclusive feat or trait or not.
darkvision
easier to fit in a dungeon
huge dodge bonuses against the most common mid level monster
huge bonuses to CMD against 2 common manuevers used by said monster
most of those goodies already outweigh you dragon races benefits
before we count the other stuff.
Still, you have immunity to fire and flight. That carries over a long time. Only one race has flight naturally without using any effort. A few have flight through feats, but it is either only for limited time (such as tengu) or it is a feat that can only be taken at later levels (aasimir wings). Over all, this is a major asset that typically you would have to plan the entire race around to balance it out. Unlimited flight is a rather big deal, especially for free at first level.
Immunity to fire, which can be gained from magic, does still mean that you do not have to worry about a fireball during the surprise round. Ever. Heck, I think you could technically walk into a pit directly into lava and only be convinced by the climb back up. Immunity is worth roughly half to a third of the RP value of most races.
No matter the level, you are overpowered with these two features.
Yes
Large + Flight + Immune to Fire + Dragon
Is this like the Dragonborn?
Yes
Large + Flight + Immune to Fire + Dragon
to climb vertically with clumsy manueverability, you need to make a DC 30 fly check, at a -12 for being clumsy and the ACP for whatever armor you wear.
the real power of large creatures is not their weapon dice, but their reach. for this benefit to be worth anything, he has to spend extra RP on reach. otherwise, he is like gimped large. which has the following penalties
-1 to hit and AC
-4 to stealth
can't fit into most dungeon corridors without squeezing
-4 to fly checks for size
-12 to fly checks for clumsy manueverability
cannot gain a vertical edge without making an extremely difficult fly check
has to move to continue flying, denying full attacks
massive size makes finding cover harder to achieve, making archer fodder out of the poor dragon
immunity to sleep only helps against witches because the sleep spells are highly impractical
immunity to fire is worthless because all it does is save you a few pitiful points of meager damage. considering how poor the damage of evocation spells are and how easy it is to make the save on most of them. i laugh at this nonbenefit. it's like evasion, but for one energy type.
Strix has a better flight from level 1. A balancing act IMO would be to:
A) Remove the Large size
B) Remove Breath Weapon and Immunity to Fire
or
C) Use a modified form of the Wyvaran on p. 238 of the Advanced Race Guide.
Essentially option C is similar to what you are going for. Core races ranges from 8 - 11 RP, averages 9-10, and expanded races (did not include drow noble as it is a standard drow buffed up with feat tree) ranges from 5 - 24 RP, averaging 10-11.
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immunity to fire is worthless because all it does is save you a few pitiful points of meager damage. considering how poor the damage of evocation spells are and how easy it is to make the save on most of them. i laugh at this nonbenefit. it's like evasion, but for one energy type.
Immunity to fire a "non-benefit"?
When is the last time you had a poor base Reflex save character succeed rolling a 10 on the d20 against a high-CR dragon's fire breath weapon without a slathering of spells in operation? Immunity is far better than evasion. There's no armor limitation, it works even if you are helpless or unconscious and you don't have to roll a saving throw at all.
I think for 27 RP it isn't overpowered considering that's the exact point cost of an azlanti (which also is underpowered for it's cost). I did it once for fun
Personally as a GM, I tell my players that wish to create a race, to keep it under 20 and provide a really good reason as to why I should allow the race in my world. It doesn't have to be logical, realistic, or even lengthy. All I'm looking for is a good, well-thought story, entertain me and almost anything is permissible. "Because you allow dragons and magic" doesn't cut it.
I think for 27 RP it isn't overpowered considering that's the exact point cost of an azlanti (which also is underpowered for it's cost). I did it once for fun
Hah.
Fun bit of trivia: changing Gnomes to Fey (as you mentioned at the end of that thread) doesn't change their RP cost at all. The extra cost of Fey type versus Humanoid type is made up with the loss of having to pay for Low-Light Vision, which Fey get for free.
I think for 27 RP it isn't overpowered considering that's the exact point cost of an azlanti (which also is underpowered for it's cost). I did it once for funHah.
Fun bit of trivia: changing Gnomes to Fey (as you mentioned at the end of that thread) doesn't change their RP cost at all. The extra cost of Fey type versus Humanoid type is made up with the loss of having to pay for Low-Light Vision, which Fey get for free.
It was also gonna include a whole slew of sla's (and same standard fey stuff like dr/cold iron), but i never picked the project up.
It was also gonna include a whole slew of sla's (and same standard fey stuff like dr/cold iron), but i never picked the project up.I think for 27 RP it isn't overpowered considering that's the exact point cost of an azlanti (which also is underpowered for it's cost). I did it once for funHah.
Fun bit of trivia: changing Gnomes to Fey (as you mentioned at the end of that thread) doesn't change their RP cost at all. The extra cost of Fey type versus Humanoid type is made up with the loss of having to pay for Low-Light Vision, which Fey get for free.
Since I've Fey-ified Gnomes in my setting, consider me interested. =)
Would this build be equal to a full level or would you spend more on it to get it to that point or less?
Since I've Fey-ified Gnomes in my setting, consider me interested. =)It was also gonna include a whole slew of sla's (and same standard fey stuff like dr/cold iron), but i never picked the project up.I think for 27 RP it isn't overpowered considering that's the exact point cost of an azlanti (which also is underpowered for it's cost). I did it once for funHah.
Fun bit of trivia: changing Gnomes to Fey (as you mentioned at the end of that thread) doesn't change their RP cost at all. The extra cost of Fey type versus Humanoid type is made up with the loss of having to pay for Low-Light Vision, which Fey get for free.
of that I am aware, and I particularly like them.
now back on the thread topic. if I may make a suggestion.dragonfolk
type humanoid(dragonblooded, reptillian)0RP
size large 7RP
normal speed 0 RP
standard ability array (+2dex, +2 chr, -2 wis) 0 RP. Total array +2 str, +2 chr, -2wis. They are strong and have magnetic personalities, but to be overconfident and careless.
Standard language array o RP
Kobold Blooded, this race counts as koblod's for all effects related to race. 0RP
Dragon Sorcery : If a member of this race is a sorcerer with the Draconic Bloodline, it treats its caster level as 1 higher when casting bonus spells and bloodline powers. This trait does not give members of this race early access to level-based powers; it only affects powers that they could already use without this trait. 1 RP
Natural Armor 2RP
total 10RP
Large requires the humanoid subtype of Giant. Also, lacks the other abilities granted for being a dragon sub-type.
immunity to fire is worthless because all it does is save you a few pitiful points of meager damage. considering how poor the damage of evocation spells are and how easy it is to make the save on most of them. i laugh at this nonbenefit. it's like evasion, but for one energy type.
Immunity to fire a "non-benefit"?
When is the last time you had a poor base Reflex save character succeed rolling a 10 on the d20 against a high-CR dragon's fire breath weapon without a slathering of spells in operation? Immunity is far better than evasion. There's no armor limitation, it works even if you are helpless or unconscious and you don't have to roll a saving throw at all.
it is very rare that i fight dragons, and every time i have. the party was always buffed by the bard and other pseudocasters.
plus instead of going straight for the maximized strength, even on a 25 point allotment, i invest a bit more in dexterity and intelligence. which with a focus on physical perfection items over better giant strength items along with bardic buffs.
i tend to not do so bad on reflex saves.
and even on a failed save, the fire damage is pitiful.
when the whole party has up
haste
good hope
communal resist energy
a 25 point allotment
and generally keeps a decent dexterity
we laugh at those breath weapons every fight
in fact, it's not energy damage our group worries so much about
it is the power attacking brutes with the massive 2handers and amazing to hit bonuses, the undead creatures who bypass hit points, and the critical hit deck we truly fear.
Large requires the humanoid subtype of Giant. Also, lacks the other abilities granted for being a dragon sub-type.
Yeah I nixed that because it didn't fit thematically. Also dragon is a type not sub-type. Dragonblooded was just a humanoid type from 3.5 I adapted for this (the Dragonborn were this). Personally the race building system itself has several major flaws, not the least of which is often arbitrary subtype requirements. Heck I've used advanced traits on basic races with little game-braking effect. There is always room to make a judgement call for building a race. It's important to keep in mind those in the book are closer to suggestions than a perfectly balanced system. wow... reading that back to myself made that sound kinda angry, I assure you it's not.
What's the appeal of Large, besides bigger weapons?
So I am fairly new to the Pathfinder system. I've recently made the switch from 3.5 and I built a new Race of large, dragon-like peoples. They Are meant to be a force to be reckoned with, but i need to know whether they are too overpowered to be considered a playable template. I would greatly appreciate input on this matter. Keep in mind, the monsters in the campaign I'm developing are pretty beefy and I need to know that my PC race can combat them effectively (humans and other basic races are supposed to be weaker than both).
Here is a look at the rough draft of the template
-Type
Dragon 10 rp
-Size
Large 7 rp
-Base Speed
Normal 0 rp
-Languages
Standard 0 rp
-Racial Traits
Fly Speed 30 ft, clumsy 4 rp
Breath Weapon, 20 ft line of fire 3 rp
Immune to fire 4 rpTotal..................27 rp
Being large without reach is just weird if it is a humanoid shaped creature.
Flght, could be an issue at low levels, mostly because it bypasses some obstacles that are part of low level challenges.
immunity to energy type might work the same as flight, bypassing some challenging encounters at lower levels.
The total comes down to 28, not 27.
I don't see mention of the ability modifiers, personally I dislike races that are supposedly large and powerful but do not have at least a +4 strength, +2 constitution adjustment, that simply means they are physically weak for their size.
What's the appeal of Large, besides bigger weapons?
bonus to cmb, swallow whole is more avoidable, can hit huge with enlarge person and get some reach going. personally never really been ecstatic about it myself, but hey for some people bigger is better.
I guess, but there are just as many negatives to being large as well.