Rogue (Unchained) / Monk(Unchained) + Sneak Attack + Unarmed Strike

[thatcheriliff]

Can a rogue/monk combo gain sneak attack with unarmed strike and is it considered a finesse weapon?

Weapon finesse-

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

Unarmed Strike-

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

For Rogue (Unchained), she can select "one type of weapon that can be used with weapon finesse" for Finesse Training

Therefore, can I choose unarmed strike since it can be used with weapon finesse? I ask this because in the new Hero Lab update they added the unchained classes but I am not able to choose Unarmed Strike with Finesse Training. Also, I read on many message boards that you cannot use sneak attack with unarmed strike because it is not a finesse weapon. But unarmed strike is a light weapon, and weapon finesse is specifically with use with a light weapon.Doesn't the feat Knockout Artist also prove you can use sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike?

I want to basically build an unarmed/natural attack monk/rogue combo with unchained classes and use dex to damage with unarmed strike. Is my build legal? I need a little help clearing up the confusion.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So, first off, you could always get sneak attack any time you qualified for it with a weapon. The only notable exception to this is splash weapons which were specifically called out as not working with any precision damage. Unarmed strikes absolutely work with normal sneak attack. Now let's see what I can pull up of the Unchained stuff.

Alright, so the only difference between a Rogue and a URogue's sneak attack is the URogue changes the last line to "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment." This is actually an improvement, because normal rogues do not have the "total" and cannot sneak attack people with any concealment. So yes, absolutely, you can sneak attack with an unarmed strike, same as before.

Now for Finesse Training.

Finesse Training (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

Is unarmed strike a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse? Yes, it says so. So it's a valid choice for Finesse Training.

And a quick search shows nothing in the UMonk class forbidding precision damage, so presumably it all works.

[thatcheriliff]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So, first off, you could always get sneak attack any time you qualified for it with a weapon. The only notable exception to this is splash weapons which were specifically called out as not working with any precision damage. Unarmed strikes absolutely work with normal sneak attack. Now let's see what I can pull up of the Unchained stuff.

Alright, so the only difference between a Rogue and a URogue's sneak attack is the URogue changes the last line to "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment." This is actually an improvement, because normal rogues do not have the "total" and cannot sneak attack people with any concealment. So yes, absolutely, you can sneak attack with an unarmed strike, same as before.

Now for Finesse Training.

Finesse Training (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.

Is unarmed strike a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse? Yes, it says so. So it's a valid choice for Finesse Training.

And a quick search shows nothing in the UMonk class forbidding precision damage, so presumably it all works.

So I'm going to assume then that Hero Lab just made a mistake or hasn't implemented it correctly then. I thought I was going crazy. Thanks!

[thorin001]

thatcheriliff wrote:

So I'm going to assume then that Hero Lab just made a mistake or hasn't implemented it correctly then. I thought I was going crazy. Thanks!

Always assume that Hero Lab made a mistake, especially with new stuff.

[Xethik]

thatcheriliff wrote:

Also, I read on many message boards that you cannot use sneak attack with unarmed strike because it is not a finesse weapon.

You're probably reading 5e material.

[Rafaeru]

I'm doing a similar thing (don't have hero lab, thus never doubted the rules), and wanted to confirm that this is indeed how it works, as well as throw in a couple more cents.

The high dex push also helps combat reflexes, and furthers the strength of the snake fang build.
The spin kick the monk gains as a style strike can trigger sneak attack,
And there are some sneak attack abilities that can cause effects of trigger medusa's wrath.
I'm in the midst of finding the most reliable, though, so tell me if you can think of anything.
Happy hunting.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Popping in to confirm that the combo is in fact legit.

[Turgan]

Similar question: I am some points away from level 11 with my Unchained Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel). Level 11 is when the second weapon for Finesse Training (Dex to Damage) comes online. I want to chose "Unarmed Strike", a simple weapon, with which I am proficient, but which would still trigger attacks of opportunity.

At level 13 I plan to become a monk; now finally the question: When I gain
"Improved Unarmed Strike" as a bonus feat will finesse trainig: unarmed strike transfer to this ability?

[Pink Dragon]

Yes Turgan. Improved unarmed strike is still unarmed strike.

[blahpers]

All improved unarmed strike does is allow you to strike lethally without penalty and to strike without provoking an attack of opportunity. You're still attacking with an unarmed strike, so all of your unarmed strike-specific abilities still function.

[Turgan]

Blaphers and Pink Dragon: Thank you very much for taking the time to answer this question. It seems rather obvious, I guess, but sometimes there is an important rule or Erratum well hidden that I do not detect.