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Hello all,
I saw a throwaway line in another thread, and it got me thinking: would it be unbalancing to use Cold Iron as a type of Anti-Magic device?
Specifically, I had two uses in mind:
1) Mage prison-an arcane caster that is surrounded by cold iron bars must make a caster check vs DC 25 (maybe 30) to cast any spells.
2) Cold Iron Armor-this armor has a rating 1 lower than it's usual rating, but grants the wearer SR 10 + whatever the original bonus is for the type of armor (ie, a chain shirt would grant AC +3, but SR 14). Cost modifiers are as for cold iron weapons.
Anyone see anything wrong with this stuff? Either mechanically, or any logical ramifications?
Help would be appreciated.
Tauric
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Actually, I kina like this concept. As is everyone either wants mitral or adamantine equipment, but no one bothers with cold iron unless they are going to be up against a bunch of fey.
That said, I'd adjust what you've proposed to the following:
Cold iron prison DC and to cast = 25 + spell level. (They might get off that can trip, but not a polymorph). This can possibly be increased by increasing the sheer amount of cold iron used in, say, the foundation to siphon off any magical energies.
Cold iron armor has no decrease in AC, but gains an SR equal to it's AC bonus + 10 and doubles its arcane spell failure chance and gains a divine spell failure chance equal to it's normal arcane spell failure.
This means that cold iron full plate will be boss against lvl 1 casters (SR 19 vs 1d20 + CL1, only a 15% chance of success), but even with a +5 enhancement will be of limited use against higher level casters (SR 24 vs 1d20 + CL20, only a 15% chance of failure).
Enchanting cold iron already costs an additional 2k, which means that it is rather undesirable at early levels since it already costs double, but this gives it more desirability and flavor over all.
Of course, if you wanted to add in the Spell Resistance armor qualities, that could be slightly problematic. I'd have to rule that the SR provided by those qualities is simply increased by the armor's AC bonus.
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I'd be all for this if there was another caveat: Cold Iron can NEVER, EVER be enchanted, either temporarily or permanently.
Also, it'd be neat if cold iron weapons had the ability to ignore spells such as Shield, Mage Armor, etc. Sadly, the game would need to have a good definition on what is an enchantment, what is an "improvement", and it's not in right now...
I'd be all for this if there was another caveat: Cold Iron can NEVER, EVER be enchanted, either temporarily or permanently.
Also, it'd be neat if cold iron weapons had the ability to ignore spells such as Shield, Mage Armor, etc. Sadly, the game would need to have a good definition on what is an enchantment, what is an "improvement", and it's not in right now...
How about "any effect that would cease functioning in an anti-magic field"?
Sounds good, but some weapon effects are clearly not magical in nature. Things such as Adapting, Advancing, Agile, Stalking, etc are questionable.
Sounds good, but some weapon effects are clearly not magical in nature. Things such as Adapting, Advancing, Agile, Stalking, etc are questionable.
Shrug. If cold iron is supposed to be anti-magical, I'd let it be anti-magical. Given that Advancing radiates transformation magic, has an associated caster level associated with it, and requires the Feather Step spell, I don't see any reason to consider it non-magical.
EVERYTHING has a school, caster level, and spell requirement.
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EVERYTHING has a school, caster level, and spell requirement.
Alchemist's fire doesn't. Masterwork weapons don't. Nor does a thrown rock.
Everything magical has a school, caster level, and spell requirement. That's because it's magical, which is what anti-magic should logically inhibit. Given that you can dispel the Advancing effect on a magical sword and it would cease working in an anti-magic field, why would you expect other anti-magic effects to leave it alone?
Alchemist's fire isn't a weapon special ability. Masterwork is one single thing.
What I'm saying here is that some "magical effects" are clearly not magical in their result. Or do you seriously think that it takes magic to make a bow flexible?
The anti magic qualities could simply make enchanting cold iron more expensive and labor intensive. It already costs an extra 2k to enchant, but if you really want to make it harder just increase the cost of enchanting it by 25-50% and increase any craft DCs by 5.
That would make a +5 cold iron armor cost an extra 6.25-12.5k, on top of the extra 2k just to enchant it, and increase the DC to make one from 20 to 25. The cost for a weapon would be an extra 12.5-25k. (I personally lean towards the 25% cost increase.)
The only abilities which might not be affected by this cost increase would be anti-magic qualities such as SR, spell turning, and dispelling.
That would make it a straight upgrade at a minor price mark-up.
Yes, but compare the costs of a +5 cold iron weapon and other magical weapons.
Using the 25% markup this comes to 64.5k, or 77k using the 50% markup.
Compared to other weapons, that would be 50k for a +5 or 72k for a +6 (total enhancement including special qualities).
Even if the weapon could bypass mage armor, shield, and shield of faith (armor, shield, and deflection bonuses respectively), only the most dedicated witch hunters would bother with such an item, as very few creatures will have access to even 2 of these three effects, much less be reliant upon them when they could have access to dancing shields, rings of force shield, bracers of armor, etc.
Though, I wouldn't necessarily allow a cold iron weapon to function in such an all-or-nothing manner. I would rather suggest that a cold iron weapon pierces DR magic as though it were magic, regardless of enhancement, and reduces any magical AC bonus (from spells or enhancement bonuses, other than Dex based incidentals) by 1 point per point of enhancement.
That said, I'd have to revise my preference to the 50% markup, as it is a slight scaling benefit.
Still, it is a flat upgrade. Removes the whole "switch weapons" thing.
Alchemist's fire isn't a weapon special ability. Masterwork is one single thing.
What I'm saying here is that some "magical effects" are clearly not magical in their result. Or do you seriously think that it takes magic to make a bow flexible?
Yes,I seriously think that it takes magic to MAGICALLY make a bow magically flexible, to a degree that an ordinary mundane craftsman couldn't do it.
If a master craftsman could do it, without needing to cast magic spells on it, it would only be a masterwork weapon, wouldn't it?
And that's why, RAW, the flexibility of that bow goes away in an anti *M*A*G*I*C* field.
I'll concede your point if you show me an official Paizo list of mundane special weapon effects that is longer than simple masterwork and poisoned. Basically, say something that isn't a tautology ("it's magic because magic requires magic to work, so it's magic").
I'll concede your point if you show me an official Paizo list of mundane special weapon effects that is longer than simple masterwork and poisoned. Basically, say something that isn't a tautology ("it's magic because magic requires magic to work, so it's magic").
Well, I will stand by the tautology: if Dispel Magic eliminates the effect, and if it winks out in an Anti-Magic Field, it's magical.
But the entire list of alchemical effects and special materials that don't duplicate spells would fit the bill; to the best of my knowledge, they're all non-magical. (Actually, to the best of my knowledge, even the ones that do duplicate spells aren't magical, they're alchemical and not subject to Dispel, for instance). If you're specifically looking for weapon and armor effects,...
* Armor Ointment (decreases armor check penalties)
* Black Fester (hinders magical healing of inflicted wounds)
* Bladeguard (protects from rust)
* Frost Ward or Fire Ward Gel (duplicates Protection from Elements)
* Silversheen (adds silver special effect to weapons, protects from rust)
* Weapon Blanch (one of several material enhancements, or duplicates ghost touch)
* Adamantine
* Angelskin
* Blood Crystal
* Bone
* Bronze
* Cold Iron
* Darkleaf Cloth
* Darkwood
* Dragonhide
* Eel Hide
* et cetera.
You can find a lengthy list on the D20PFSRD site.
Similarly, any of the mundane special weapon traits -- brace, trip, disarm, reach, etc. -- or the damage types (an arrow's ability to bypass DR/piercing) are mundane.
But, as I said, fundamentally I will stand by the tautology, simply because the alternative that you suggest is literally oxymoronic. Let me turn it around in turn. If the effect isn't magical, why does it stop working when you turn off magic? If the effect is not magical, why do you need magic to produce it?
Because it makes no sense. And the reason it doesn't make sense is because it wasn't made to make sense. The game system was written with the game universe in mind. Magic is inextricable from the world. It never occured to them that some seriously skilled smiths ought to be able to make some really, really good armor. Why would they? Why would anyone go through the trouble if there's a wizard that can do it faster, for less?
And that is why every single special effect that has a tangible benefit (and by tangible, I don't mean lolworthy stuff like +1 damage if target is bleeding or rofltastic extra fire damage if you're feeding fireballs to the weapon) is magical. Furthermore, note how most of the items you have linked to are non-core, meaning they were made AFTER the magic weapon special effects list was set in stone. They're intentionally sucky in order to not be the same but cheaper.
With that in mind, outside of RAW, I can't think of a reason why a skilled smith shouldn't be able to reproduce at least some of the physically and mechanically possible special effects that are currently labeled only as magical.
Because it makes no sense. And the reason it doesn't make sense is because it wasn't made to make sense. The game system was written with the game universe in mind. Magic is inextricable from the world. It never occured to them that some seriously skilled smiths ought to be able to make some really, really good armor. Why would they? Why would anyone go through the trouble if there's a wizard that can do it faster, for less?
And that is why every single special effect that has a tangible benefit (and by tangible, I don't mean lolworthy stuff like +1 damage if target is bleeding or rofltastic extra fire damage if you're feeding fireballs to the weapon) is magical. Furthermore, note how most of the items you have linked to are non-core, meaning they were made AFTER the magic weapon special effects list was set in stone. They're intentionally sucky in order to not be the same but cheaper.
With that in mind, outside of RAW, I can't think of a reason why a skilled smith shouldn't be able to reproduce at least some of the physically and mechanically possible special effects that are currently labeled only as magical.
Er,.... AntiMagic Field is core, and was specifically designed to turn off magic. All of the twinkie weapon/armor special effects turn off in an antimagic field, by design. But, also in core, the various special materials and alchemical effects do not turn off in an antimagic field, which is why an adamantine rapier is still a piercing weapon that ignores hardness in such a field, why a smokestick still produces concealment in such a field, et cetera.
If you want cold iron to be antimagical, make it antimagical. There's a well-established set of game rules to define exactly what "anti-magic" means, and it turns off weapon enhancements such as Advancing (which, by the way, is not core; nor is Adapting, Agile, Stalking,... what else did you mention?).
So core vs. non-core doesn't seem to be relevant; the game designers specifically put these new abilities in the pile of "things that are magical."
It sounds to me like what you want is a set of rules that enable you to wear armor that eliminates the weapon special effects you don't like.
And as for the reason that a skilled smith shouldn't be able to reproduce them... it's quite simple. It's because the effect goes beyond what is physically possible without magic. Have you read the description of Stalking? "As a standard action, a character wielding a stalking weapon can command it to study a creature within 60 feet." So the wielder can specifically take any other actions other than attacks -- drink potions, cast spells, concentrate their attention elsewhere -- while the stalking weapon learns the weaknesses of the opponent in question. I would find it implausibly magical to believe that merely watching someone from 50' away would enable me to hurt someone that much more with a weapon, but the fact that I don't even need to be paying attention to the target and that my dagger has a targeting computer built into it makes it clearly a magical effect.
There's nothing remotely questionable about it. You've enchanted a weapon with perceptive abilities; that's magical.
ETA the other effects you mention: Adaptive -- giving a bow the ability to dynamically adapt its pull to the strength of the wielder without causing a loss of accuracy? Again, I'm not sure we have the technology today in the real world to do that. Advancing -- holding a weapon in your hand causes you to move with supernatural speed, but only when you hit something.
Adaptive isn't simply making a bow flexible. It's making the flexibility of a bow change from second to second that is magical. You can buy mundane bows with any pull you like, and you can even buy adjustable bows with a limited range of pulls (e.g. 60-70#). Buying a bow that knows that right this instant you use a 30# pull instead of a 60#? That's not possible.
It sounds to me like what you want is a set of rules that enable you to wear armor that eliminates the weapon special effects you don't like.
How the hell did you ever get to that conclusion!?
It sounds to me like what you want is a set of rules that enable you to wear armor that eliminates the weapon special effects you don't like.How the hell did you ever get to that conclusion!?
The fact that you want cold iron to negate some-but-not-all magic special abilities of weapons, despite the fact that there are simple rules to negate all magic special abilities of weapons that have been around since core and work well.
I never mentioned cold iron armor in any of my posts.
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I never mentioned cold iron armor in any of my posts.
But that is exactly what this post is about: adding innately antimagical qualities to cold iron. So it doesn't really matter if you mentioned it or not if you are in this thread.
That said, the OP wasn't saying that cold iron would make magic impossible, or even cancel it out completely, just make it more difficult to use in certain scenarios (most specifically for casters jailed in a cold iron cell and for casters who were attempting to target opponents wearing cold iron armor).
Most of the following posts were simply elaborating upon the ramifications of such an alteration to the properties of cold iron, especially with respect to the added difficulty of even enchanting such items and what additional benefit cold iron weapons might provide.
If you were not ready to discuss these topics, that is understandable, but this is not the thread for you.
Dot.
Who has ever mentioned cold iron armor eliminating weapon special effects? You're not making any sense.
Who has ever mentioned cold iron armor eliminating weapon special effects? You're not making any sense.
Um, you did in your first post.
I'd be all for this if there was another caveat: Cold Iron can NEVER, EVER be enchanted, either temporarily or permanently.
Also, it'd be neat if cold iron weapons had the ability to ignore spells such as Shield, Mage Armor, etc. Sadly, the game would need to have a good definition on what is an enchantment, what is an "improvement", and it's not in right now...
(Emphasis mine)
And ever since you have been arguing what counts as a magical enchantment.
This is the also the original post in which weapons were mentioned in this thread as well, tho the OP was originally about armor.
It's the third from the top. See for yourself.
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I think this is a cool idea. I used to run Changeling the Dreaming, and this was exactly how cold iron worked in that game, only it was even worse, because you couln't do magic at all while it was around (basically anti-magic).
I agree though that if you use this it doesn't make sense to have enchanted cold iron items.
I would move away from the cold iron ignoring spell effects, and make getting touch with cold iron act like a targeted dispel magic effect.
So...
Getting struck by a CI weapon would have a chance of dispelling spells on the target.
Someone in a cold iron cage would have to beat a targeted dispel(as per counterspelling) to get a spell off. If they cast a spell with a duration, they get hit with a dispel attempt every round they are touching the CI.
I think this is a cool idea. I used to run Changeling the Dreaming, and this was exactly how cold iron worked in that game, only it was even worse, because you couln't do magic at all while it was around (basically anti-magic).
I agree though that if you use this it doesn't make sense to have enchanted cold iron items.
I like the idea but I see serious game balance issues. A slotless item of constant antimagic field would be worth hundreds of thousands of gold pieces according to the guidelines and would end up being basically a totally-mess-up-the-casters item to put into an epic-level boss fight that you wanted the fighter-types to shine at, just before you ended the campaign because you couldn't run anything else after that.
Even a use-activated dispel magic item would be expensive. I'd want to see a lot of playtesting to figure out how to price this.
Also, I think making cold iron unenchantable would make it useless, but I would support making it harder to enchant. Make it so that enchanting a cold iron weapon or armor counts as being +1 before any enchantments are added. So a +1 cold iron sword would code 8k to enchant.
Who has ever mentioned cold iron armor eliminating weapon special effects? You're not making any sense.Um, you did in your first post.
I'd be all for this if there was another caveat: Cold Iron can NEVER, EVER be enchanted, either temporarily or permanently.
Also, it'd be neat if cold iron weapons had the ability to ignore spells such as Shield, Mage Armor, etc. Sadly, the game would need to have a good definition on what is an enchantment, what is an "improvement", and it's not in right now...
(Emphasis mine)
And ever since you have been arguing what counts as a magical enchantment.
This is the also the original post in which weapons were mentioned in this thread as well, tho the OP was originally about armor.
It's the third from the top. See for yourself.
How does "it'd be neat if a cold iron weapon could ignore certain defensive enchantments" translate into "cold iron armor should make you immune to weapon enchantments"?!
@Boz, I think you need to reread the thread carefully. You are mistakenly combining two completely different lines of thought.
No one has suggested that cold iron armor should make you immune to weapon enchantments. However, you did say that cold iron should be impossible to enchant.
The logic followed that if anything that is cold iron is impossible to enchant, then neither cold iron weapons nor cold iron armor could be enchanted.
I then proposed an alternative whereby these could be enchanted, but at a higher cost and craft DC to create.
The only other crossover between weapons and armor which has occurred in this thread was another post by me proposing how a cold iron weapon might pierce through magical defenses without actually negating them altogether (lowering them incrementaly based on the weapon's enchantment).
No where, other than your last two posts, has there been any mention of cold iron armor making the wearer immune to weapon enchantments. Only that cold iron equipment itself, whether a weapon or armor, would be difficult if not impossible to imbue, depending upon your preference.
Edit: I apologize for any confusion. My previous response was based upon an assumption that there was a typo in the comment of yours to which I was responding.
I had interpreted it as "Who has ever mentioned cold iron eliminating weapon special effects?"
Note the lack of the word "armor" after "cold iron", and you might see my confusion, given the context of this thread.
You are mistakenly combining two completely different lines of thought.
*I* am combining two completely different lines of thought!?
No where, other than your last two posts, has there been any mention of cold iron armor making the wearer immune to weapon enchantments.
Oh really?
It sounds to me like what you want is a set of rules that enable you to wear armor that eliminates the weapon special effects you don't like.
Now, sorry if I seem hostile, but that's just because I can not actually believe that people could misconstrue the meaning of posts in such a way in a written discussion, a discussion in which you have full oversight over what all the parties have stated throughout at all times.
My point/wish/idea/whatever: Cold iron should never be enchantable*. Cold iron weapons should be able to ignore certain magical protections on target. Cold iron armor should convey a spell resistance. Being encased in cold iron, either as an armor or as a cage, should make it very difficult to cast spells.
Naturally, this would mean that the price of cold iron increases somewhat, as it becomes harder to work with, more sought out, etc. But what I really like about this change is that it would give the world itself credence, it would make casters less godly, both mechanically and fluffily.
it would make casters less godly, both mechanically and fluffily.
This is what I was going for, right here.
Personally, I would like for CI to not be enchantable, at all. However, I'm sure my players would disagree with me, so I am going to make the Craft DCs +5/bonus added, at 50% cost.
The SR will be 10 +AC Bonus, double Arcane Spell Failure, Divine Failure equal to normal Arcane Failure
Casting in a cage will be level check DC 25 + Spell Level.
I am on the fence about weapons being targeted dispel or bypassing magical AC. They both sound good, but would require more in-combat bookkeeping, which always slow my group down.
I think this is a cool idea. I used to run Changeling the Dreaming, and this was exactly how cold iron worked in that game, only it was even worse, because you couln't do magic at all while it was around (basically anti-magic).
I agree though that if you use this it doesn't make sense to have enchanted cold iron items.
I like the idea but I see serious game balance issues. A slotless item of constant antimagic field would be worth hundreds of thousands of gold pieces according to the guidelines and would end up being basically a totally-mess-up-the-casters item to put into an epic-level boss fight that you wanted the fighter-types to shine at, just before you ended the campaign because you couldn't run anything else after that.
Even a use-activated dispel magic item would be expensive. I'd want to see a lot of playtesting to figure out how to price this.
Why would armor be slotless? Wouldn't it be natural to assume it took the armor slot?