I know how Spell Sunder is supposed to be used, but in their classic style, my Wed night group is trying to convince me of strange things...
But I know that I can be wrong on these things, so please help me out here:
Benefit: Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.
Let's say an opponent afflicts a party member with a fairly standard debuff, like slow. Can the Barbarian punch his friend in order to cure him? I'm inclined to say yes.
To make it easier, can the Barbarian say "hold still! this only hurt little bit!" before the roll, making the companion voluntarily drop his CMD to ridiculously low, so that the Barbarian automatically succeeds? (assuming no nat-1) I see no rules justification to say no.Is there any reason why the Barbarian can't punch himself in the face to cure his own affliction? (and autosucceed)
Finally, what if an opponent afflicts a party member with a "stickier" debuff, like bestow curse or baleful polymorph? Can the Barbarian use Spell Sunder in order to "dispel" the condition? If not dispel it, can he at least "suppress" it?
The text of Spell Sunder doesn't say "as dispel magic", but merely uses the word "dispelled", which is the same word used by break enchantment and other high-powered spells in their writeups. So I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work by RAW.
Since the guy has dozens of rounds of rage per day, this make post-combat healing trivial, and the party Oracle is now planning on swapping out all of his remove curse and similar spells known and just relying on the Barbarian to take care of all such matters.
Is this right? Is this intended here? It "feels" wrong, but I can't find an actual flaw in the argument.
The CMD is 15+the caster level. So you can't "drop your guard" against it. But you can still sunder an effect on an ally. The CMD would be the same, even if the companion (or barbarian himself) dropped their guard.
At least that's how I read it.
It has flavour, it makes (somewhat perverted) sense and there are no rules against it.
Go for it!
First off, your usage of 'healing'/'cure' is flat out confusing and inaccurate.
Let's say an opponent afflicts a party member with a fairly standard debuff, like slow. Can the Barbarian punch his friend in order to cure him? I'm inclined to say yes.Why not?
To make it easier, can the Barbarian say "hold still! this only hurt little bit!" before the roll, making the companion voluntarily drop his CMD to ridiculously low, so that the Barbarian automatically succeeds? (assuming no nat-1) I see no rules justification to say no.
Where is the rules justification for any such mechanic to exist for any attack?
Touch effects can automatically effect willing targets, but this isn't a touch effect.Also, note: this is a special usage of Sunder: in no case does it actually hurt the target (as your comment 'this only hurt little bit!' suggests).
So fluff-wise, it's probably better to say you are 'punching' the SPELL not your friend themself, just like sundering armor/weapon is not damaging the wearer themself.
Is there any reason why the Barbarian can't punch himself in the face to cure his own affliction? (and autosucceed)
Not that I can see, but re: autosucceed: no.
The result depends on how much your attack roll total beats the CMD, and merely beating it isn't enough to work, you need to beat it by 5+.There is no mechanic to 'willingly lower your CMD'. That is RAW.
If you want to improvise, saying that the target's CMD is willingly lowered (and thus doesn't matter) should mean that the normal DC for spells NOT attached to a creature should be used. That means effective CMD of 15+Caster Level to suppress for 1 round, 20+Caster Level to suppress for 2 rounds, 25+Caster Level to dispel. Honestly, the abilty should have stated that you always use the higher of these numbers, to cover high level casters' spells on low CMD creatures (a high CMD warrior 'willingly lowering their guard' isn't much different than if the warrior was instead a weakling commoner with 10 CMD).
Finally, what if an opponent afflicts a party member with a "stickier" debuff, like bestow curse or baleful polymorph? ...The text of Spell Sunder doesn't say "as dispel magic", but merely uses the word "dispelled", which is the same word used by break enchantment and other high-powered spells in their writeups. So I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work by RAW.
Uh... pretty optimistic logic there. Because it only says 'dispel' and doesn't say 'as dispel magic' we can think it is not working like dispel magic, but instead is working like other spells that are not mentioned? No.
Your reading of break enchantment is totally off, it NEVER describes what it is doing as 'dispelling', it is described as 'removing'. 'Dispel' is only mentioned tangentially:: "If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic or stone to flesh, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower." which does not say that Break Enchantment is dispelling, it is imposing a limit on Break Enchantment based on Spell Level and whether Dispel Magic or Stone to Flesh would work on the effect, big difference. Also consider the wording of Bestow Curse: "The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell."
When Spell Sunder says it is dispelling that is what it is doing.
Since the guy has dozens of rounds of rage per day, this make post-combat healing trivial, and the party Oracle is now planning on swapping out all of his remove curse and similar spells known and just relying on the Barbarian to take care of all such matters.
I'm really confused on your usage of 'healing' here, all I can think of is your assumption that Spell Sunder is somehow doing damage to the target themself (which isn't the case even for normal Sunder)? As per above nothing about Spell Sunder invokes Break Enchantment/Remove Curse functionality, so I would not remove those from the party's capabilities.
The CMD is 15+the caster level. So you can't "drop your guard" against it.
This isn't quite true, since the subject is spells on a creature, although it is true that there is no mechanic to 'drop your guard'.
For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.
If it's on a creature, whether ally or enemy, you are targetting the creature's own CMD +5, and you actually need to beat the CMD by 10+ in order to actually dispel the ongoing spell. That's RAW. If in a housegame you want to rule that a creature can willingly 'drop their guard' to make their own CMD irrelevant, that should reasonably mean the 15+CasterLevel is back in play as the relevant DC to beat.
I just realized a weird thing with the ability wording, that could need Errata:
For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.
So for targetting spells attached to specific creatures,
the basic function of the ability (1 round suppression) works if your CMB equals the CMD+5.The 2 round suppression works if you exceed the CMD by 5 to 9...
Well, succeeding vs CMD+5 (the basic 1 round effect) is the exact same thing as 'exceed[ing] the CMD by 5 [to 9]'!
So per RAW, you should ALWAYS suppress the spell for 2 rounds, and NEVER do so for only 1 round.
That is for spells attached to characters, for independent spells, the distinction between the basic effective CMD (15+Caster level) which is needed to succeed and exceeding that CMD by 5 remains, yielding potential results of both 1 round and 2 round suppression (and total dispelling).
But the wording of targetting spells on creatures, where the basic success happens on CMD+5, and additional (2 round) success happens when exceeding THE CMD by 5 (not the DC needed for initial success, CMD+5, but CMD per se which is just the CMD itself) means there in never a case where you only suppress for 1 round, any success will mean 2 round suppression for spells attached to characters.
Thought I might chime in.
You can't drop your guard
Miscellaneous ModifiersA creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Drop prone and close your eyes.
*Runs away
I wrote this a little while ago.
But... But.... My barbarian can punch MAGIC! MAGIC!
or he can use his massive 2 handed, oversized half-ton warhammer to smash an enchantment off an ant and have the ant miraculously survive somehow...
I was also thinking you could just stare vacantly into the distance and count as flat-footed. Power attack and you get the AC reduction for the round.
I just like the idea of
Grog: "Hey wiz, just stand there, Im going to try and remove that cursed neclace around your neck with my Vorpal scythe. This shouldn't hurt!" Winds up his swing...
As for the Oracle removing all his restoration like spells, Just try and find out exactly what the barbarian can and cannot get rid of. Then have the Oracle cover the gaps.
A half-orc barbarian can get destroyers blessing. Every time he sunders, he gets a rage round. Volia! Free spell sundering!
Greater sunder lets any spillover damage go past you target and into your opponent. Since you didnt actually inflict any 'damage' to the spell, all of it spills over. Great for disspelling and hurting at the same time!
I wonder what all you can do to drop your AC and therefore your CMD?
Lets see what we can find.
Prone. -4 to AC against melee attacks.
Take off your armour.
blinded. No dex bonus.
Flat-footed. No dex bonus.
Invisibility. If the attacker is invisible he ignores dex bonus.
Stunned. No dex bonus. -2 CMD, attacker gets plus 4 to maneuvers.
Cowering. No dex bonus. -2 to AC.
Helpless. Dex=0. Attacker gets +4 to hit, does not stack with prone.
Paralyzed. same as helpless.
Pinned. -4 to AC.
Smaller creatures have smaller AC and CMD.
Aid another. +2 to attack roll.
Charge. -2 AC, +2 to hit.
So to get the best chance, have your 'friend' tied up, stripped naked, pinned, stunned and shrunk while you Charge him with your other 'friend' aids you. And if you can, drop his str some.
Helpless=-5
Pinned=-4
Stunned=-2
So his CMD would equal 10 -11 +Str mod.
Helpless=+4
Stunned=+4
Charge=+2
Aid another=+2
So you would have a to hit of BAB+STR+12+other modifiers.
DC to beat =Str mod +4
Also
For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect’s caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature’s CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled.
I think that the first CMD +5 becomes the new CMD. Say your CMD was 15, it would become 20 and you would need 21-25 to suppress for 1 round and 26-30 to suppress it for 2 rounds and finally 31+ to disspell it.
I think that the +5 falls under the miscellaneous modifiers part of the equation.CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers
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Nothing about Spell Sunder requires injuring anyone.
Now, you can have a Half-Orc with Destroyer's Blessing, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Familiar for a Brownie, and endless Rage, through Spell Sunder.
Have the Brownie use prestidigitation to color things, and Sunder the prestidigitation over, and over, removing the color.
I think a barbarian with a single level of cleric or druid (for flavor and happystick proficiency) can make a great shamanistic warrior type character that can really work as party healer. Not AS well as a paladin, but not far from.
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Nothing about Spell Sunder requires injuring anyone.
Now, you can have a Half-Orc with Destroyer's Blessing, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Familiar for a Brownie, and endless Rage, through Spell Sunder.
Have the Brownie use prestidigitation to color things, and Sunder the prestidigitation over, and over, removing the color.
But then he is constantly and unceasingly angry at those odd colors that keep popping up and can do nothing but knock the odd colors off the walls/chairs/rocks. Sounds like a good insane assylum encounter to me.
Or he could you know, die from exhaustion from his never ending quest to Kill All The Colours!
"buddy, hold on a sec. You got something on your forehead." WHAM!!
Its like a cat following the lazer pointer 8D
Except green, perpetually angry, and less smart...