A scenario has developed in one of my home games. The party paladin held off a pack of trolls led by an evil wizard while the rest of the party escaped. The paladin succumbed to the wizard's charm monster spell long after the party escaped, but now the wizard wants to turn that charm into a dominate.
Charm monster / charm person says that the paladin perceives the wizard's actions and words in the most favorable way, and the wizard has asked the paladin to open his mind to a spell (i.e. willingly fail a saving throw). My gut ruling is that the paladin, who would admittedly and willingly fail a save against any number of non-harmless spells (like sanctuary) if those spells were cast by a trusted friend will willingly fail the dominate save for his good and trusted friend the wizard, too.
Would you impose the "Charisma check to get a creature to do something it would not normally do" rule to get the paladin to accept a spell from the wizard, or would the charmed paladin trust his new "close friend and ally" to cast a spell on him, if asked?
Yeah. All the wizard has to say is that he's putting a beneficial spell on him, and he's probably suckered into it.
So two votes for "the paladin would ask his new best friend what the spell does, and the wizard would have to Bluff," a failure meaning that we're in Charisma check territory.
Mind you, the wizard could be casting sanctuary, or any number of other "not-harmless" spells on him. The paladin perceives the wizard's actions and words in the most favorable way. Would he really even ask what the spell was? Wouldn't he assume it was something absolutely favorable and friendly?
What level is the Paladin? Charm Monster and Dominate are pretty high level. Dominate Person requires an 11th level Wizard. At 8th level the Paladin gets aura of resolve making him immune to charm.
Even if I trust my doctor, I still ask what the prescribed medicine does so I know what I'm getting into. Mild curiosity about what he is trying to do would let him know if he can more easily lift a boulder or run into arrow fire without worry. Because that is not something you want to mix up.
The wizard would have a very good positionto bluff, but if he is comepletely obvious and "MWUAHAHAHAHA" then even a completely trusting paladin might get a little nervous.
Jod, that is a good question.
Huh... How does someone know if a spell is harmless or not in the first place? Do you know if it is? "Why do you even have to ask that?" might pop up. Even if charmed, why isn't he just killing he wizard? If he knows the wizard is evil or the reason the trolls attacked him especially.
Jodokai: Actually, this particular paladin traded out the immunity (archetype).
So it sounds like the consensus is that the wizard needs to convince the paladin that this spell isn't anything that is going to help the cause of evil, or make the paladin do something evil, or help the wizard to do something evil.
If he succeeds, then the paladin's new best buddy gets the paladin to agree to accept the spell. If not, it's a Charisma check to get the paladin to do something he wouldn't normally do.
Sound about right?
Huh... How does someone know if a spell is harmless or not in the first place? Do you know if it is? "Why do you even have to ask that?" might pop up. Even if charmed, why isn't he just killing he wizard? If he knows the wizard is evil or the reason the trolls attacked him especially.
Some spells are actually called out as "harmless" in the saving throw block.
Huh... How does someone know if a spell is harmless or not in the first place? Do you know if it is? "Why do you even have to ask that?" might pop up. Even if charmed, why isn't he just killing he wizard? If he knows the wizard is evil or the reason the trolls attacked him especially.Some spells are actually called out as "harmless" in the saving throw block.
Yeah, but that's player knowledge. Not character. Still don't know why he's not killing him.
Actually, is is character knowledge. Non-harmless Will save spells give off a "hostile tingle" in the character's mind. One does not kill his trusted friends and allies. Hence the "allies" part.
If the wizard bluffs the paladin into thinking that he's going to heal him or reunite him with his allies using the spell, in order to apologize and make amends for his wrongdoing, would accepting the spell constitute "working with evil," and violate the paladin's nature?
Actually, is is character knowledge. Non-harmless Will save spells give off a "hostile tingle" in the character's mind. One does not kill his trusted friends and allies. Hence the "allies" part.
In which case the paladin knows something is up and likely won't just give in. I suppose its more of a character thing than anything. Remember, no matter how much diplomacy or bluff everyone has a limit. I'm not big on taking control of characters myself, complicates things.
If the wizard bluffs the paladin into thinking that he's going to heal him or reunite him with his allies using the spell, in order to apologize and make amends for his wrongdoing, would accepting the spell constitute "working with evil," and violate the paladin's nature?
Killing people is evil and therefore violates the paladin code. Alchochol is a poison and therefore drinking it to poison himself makes them fall. Being tripped by a Halfling is falling and therefore...
YMMV. That's up to what the player/GM agrees on more than anything. There are a ton of threads on "should the paladin fall". Its not like he's willingly doing evil though, he's under a compulsion and possibly dominate soon.
Oh I wasn't suggesting that he get bumped to ex-paladin. Just asking if accepting a single spell from a "repentant" evildoer (and trusted friend) would be against the paladin's nature, and therefore require a Charisma check.
I doubt it, since as you said, the caster was 'repentant.' On his way to forsaking his evil and make amends. Being a paladin doesn't just mean you smash evil in the face, you are supposed to provide them with more peaceful solutions and encourage togetherness, and community, and other sappy things Barney teaches you.
The charm person and bluff check are the bits needed to convince the paladin that this is going on.
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Accepting the "buff" might not be against the paladin's nature, but as soon as the wizard tries to get the paladin to do something against his nature he's going to get a new save with a +2 bonus. Are the Paladin's saves that bad or was this just a fluke? He should have had a +5 against the charm since it was in combat.
OP can you shed a little more light on how the pally got charmed?