solarius wrote: If by some means you get 1 additional move actions and 1 standard actions, how many full-round actions you can take in one round? 1 or 2?
If the answer to above question is "1" then quick runner's shirt can't let you make full round after movement because full attack doesn't require a move + standard, but a full-round that consumes all you effort in the round.
The answer is 1, but the shirt works because you're moving as a Swift Action, which is allowed via everything I've linked to already. (Tired of copy/pasting.)
(Unless activating the shirt is the Swift action - In that case, then no, the shirt would not provide a "Pounce" effect. - Probably better to assume this case, as it says you gain a movement action as a swift action rather than being allowed to "move x feet" as a swift action.)
Neo2151 wrote: solarius wrote: If by some means you get 1 additional move actions and 1 standard actions, how many full-round actions you can take in one round? 1 or 2?
If the answer to above question is "1" then quick runner's shirt can't let you make full round after movement because full attack doesn't require a move + standard, but a full-round that consumes all you effort in the round.
The answer is 1, but the shirt works because you're moving as a Swift Action, which is allowed via everything I've linked to already. (Tired of copy/pasting.)
(Unless activating the shirt is the Swift action - In that case, then no, the shirt would not provide a "Pounce" effect. - Probably better to assume this case, as it says you gain a movement action as a swift action rather than being allowed to "move x feet" as a swift action.) So basically if it is worded "you gain a move action through WOP"， then you can't move and full attack. If it is worded "by using a free action you gain a move action through WOP", then you can...
Well, that's kind of lame...
solarius wrote: Neo2151 wrote: solarius wrote: If by some means you get 1 additional move actions and 1 standard actions, how many full-round actions you can take in one round? 1 or 2?
If the answer to above question is "1" then quick runner's shirt can't let you make full round after movement because full attack doesn't require a move + standard, but a full-round that consumes all you effort in the round.
The answer is 1, but the shirt works because you're moving as a Swift Action, which is allowed via everything I've linked to already. (Tired of copy/pasting.)
(Unless activating the shirt is the Swift action - In that case, then no, the shirt would not provide a "Pounce" effect. - Probably better to assume this case, as it says you gain a movement action as a swift action rather than being allowed to "move x feet" as a swift action.) So basically if it is worded "you gain a move action through WOP"， then you can't move and full attack. If it is worded "by using a free action you gain a move action through WOP", then you can...
Well, that's kind of lame...
Actually, it's that if you gain a move action you can't use if with a full round action, but if you move as a swift action (the teleportation subschool's shift power is an unambiguous example)
Well, you can use it for something that isn't movement, but only drawing weapons and controlling spells in the flaming sphere family are the only things that occur to me off the top of my head.
At the very least extra move actions and full round actions need a FAQ.
Removed a post and the responses. Do not call other posters trolls.
The link to a FAQ about full-round actions posted by Neo2151 has been removed but if anyone wants to read it, here's the thread.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pqkh?Granted-actions-vs-FullRound-Actions#1
In my opinion, if the spell accelerate gives an extra move action before using a full-round action there shouldn't be a problem with the interpretation of the spell. This is pretty much the spell equivalent of quick runner's shirt. It's not giving you movement as a swift action and is instead a separate action, but that's how I think it was intended to work.
I agree the wording on accelerate could be better but that's how I'm interpreting it; a movement action plus a full round action or two movement actions and a standard action etc. Even if accelerate could only give two move actions and a standard action I could see that having use.
Quote: Accelerate (Time)
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, bard 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
The target of a wordspell with this effect word can take one additional move action each turn. This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
Boost: If the target takes a full-attack action, it can, instead of taking an extra move action, make one additional attack at its highest attack bonus.
This move action can come before, after, or between other actions
This move action can come before, after, or between other actions
actions(plural): Move actions, standard actions, fullround actions, and one-round actions.
Fullround is an action
As interesting as Neo's point is. It has nothing to do with the topic here. He could be right or wrong and it would not effect anything that this spell could do.
Something you can also consider a balancing effect of the Words of Power system, is how it makes MAD classes much less so, and makes characters much less gear dependent. If you are GMing with the system, you'll probably want to put some sort of cost in, but if you run it RAW you can have all sorts of hilarious effects.
Caedwyr wrote: Something you can also consider a balancing effect of the Words of Power system, is how it makes MAD classes much less so, and makes characters much less gear dependent. If you are GMing with the system, you'll probably want to put some sort of cost in, but if you run it RAW you can have all sorts of hilarious effects. How does it do that?
Words of Power Rules wrote: Multiple Effect Words and Duration: If a wordspell has more than one effect word, the shortest of all the effect words' durations is used for all of the effect words. Core Rulebook on Magic wrote:
Duration
A spell's duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
Basically, the rules on spell duration interacts in a way that may not have been intended to hilarious results, or the way the Words of Power system works is inconsistent with the way spell timing works in the core rules, or elsewhere in the Words of Power system.
Examples of how spell timing can work in the core rules:
Example 1:
Awaken
Quote: School transmutation; Level druid 5
Casting Time 24 hours
Components V, S, M (herbs and oils worth 2,000 gp), DF
Range touch
Target animal or tree touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human's.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.
Example 2:
Transmute Metal to Wood
Quote: School transmutation; Level druid 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area all metal objects within a 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (object; see text)
This spell enables you to change all metal objects within its area to wood. Weapons, armor, and other metal objects carried by creatures are affected as well. A magic object made of metal effectively has spell resistance equal to 20 + its caster level against this spell. Artifacts cannot be transmuted. Weapons converted from metal to wood take a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. The armor bonus of any armor converted from metal to wood is reduced by 2. Weapons changed by this spell splinter and break on any natural attack roll of 1 or 2, and armor changed by this spell loses an additional point of armor bonus every time it is struck with a natural attack roll of 19 or 20.
Only limited wish, miracle, wish, or similar magic can restore a transmuted object to its metallic state.
Example 3
Flesh to Stone
Quote: School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (lime, water, and earth)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.
Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.
You've also got all sorts of damaging spells heal spells, cure spells, and other spells like contagion with instantaneous duration but long-lasting effects.
So, for the words of power system, to bestow a long-lasting effect with an instantaneous duration, you combine a damaging spell effect or healing spell effect with a debuffing or buffing effect. If you go and day "this is all stupid, it can't work this way", you can do it, but then it becomes more of a game of "mother, may I?" for replicating non healing/non damaging effects (which typically get a pass) like the Stone to X, Wall of Z, or other more complex spells from the Core Rulebook.
Um words of Power does not have those spells. I'm not seeing your point. Can you clarify?
Okay. I offered those spells from the Core Rulebook to show how some non-damaging/non-healing spells can interact with the instantaneous duration.
Words of Power lets me do something like this:
Enhance Form (1 round/level) + Moderate Cure (instantaneous)
For a permanent, non-dispellable
One-time cure of 1d6 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5).
A +4 enhancement bonus to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution (caster's choice).
This is available to an Alchemist for a 4th level spell slot. I'm sure that one could find other fun combinations. This would let the Alchemist to quickly get at +4 enhancement bonus to their Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution after 3 castings.
Last time this was raised I got called a bunch of names by people who insisted that it didn't work this way because.
Link to the thread. Feel free to look through the arguments on both sides, and if you spot any sort of reason why I might be wrong about the RAW I'd love to hear the reasoning why.
And yes, this is mostly a sidetrack to the main topic of this thread, so feel free to just ignore this sidetrack, since I doubt most GMs would let this fly in their games.
Okay this would mean the buff would last for an instant and then go away. So the target would have an enhancement bonus for an instant. Enhancement bonuses don't cause permanent effects. Permanent is a duration.
The other spells you mention actually do something and don't require permanency to stay in effect.
EDIT: permanent spells can be dispelled. Permanent effects like flesh to stone are different than permanent duration spells.
Quote: Enhancement bonuses don't cause permanent effects. That would explain why I was getting confused before. Do you have a rules cite for that so I can check it out and make sure I understand how it interacts with other rules?
It still leaves an issue for things like Selected Soaring Lesser Cure
Quote: Selected Soaring Lesser Cure
School conjuration (healing), transmutation; Level Witch 4
Cast Time 1 Standard Action
Components V, S, M
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
The target is cured of 1d6 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5) and gains a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability (40 feet if encumbered or wearing medium or heavy armor). The target also receives an insight bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 the caster's level.
Undead are damaged by this spell instead, but can attempt a Will save for no damage and spell resistance as normal.
This is behaving a bit more like awaken, energy drain, stone to flesh, or Transmute Metal to Wood in that it is causing a permanent change in capability or nature in an instant and is not dispellable like PERMANENT effects normally are.
Another one that is kinda cool
Quote: Barrier Fire Blast Stone Wall
A stone wall is conjured in a blast of flame, harming those close to it when it appears, and then remaining as a normal stone wall.
I guess my message here, is that if you are going to play around with the Words of Power system and you have any players that like to get clever or inventful with the system, the GM is going to have to nail down some fairly strict guidelines as to what will be allowed and what won't. I'm sure there's some other problems with the system, but I stopped looking. Endzeitgeist had a similar reaction here.
Caedwyr wrote:
I guess my message here, is that if you are going to play around with the Words of Power system and you have any players that like to get clever or inventful with the system, the GM is going to have to nail down some fairly strict guidelines as to what will be allowed and what won't.
To be frank your interpretation of the instantaneous duration is wrong.
Duration
A spell's duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts
Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
The point of the instantaneous description is that it's effects such as a fireball will have lasting damage on a target. This means nothing in term of duration of effects. The effect happens and then disappears. Could you use a buff spell with a instantaneous duration spell with wop? Yes but it would be pointless the buff would occur and immediately go away. You're right the spell couldn't be dispelled because there would be no spell effect in the first place.
I'm fine with you sidetracking the thread but yes the point is wop is vague. It was a small section in UM and doesn't work well as a full spellcasting system except in specific cases. I know as a GM I will have to a lot of interpretation of the system if my players use it but for the most part the system works like other spellcasting systems. Spells have a duration and you cannot interpret instantaneous as permanent.
How does awaken work? How does energy drain work? How does Wall of Stone work? All are instantaneous, but have long lasting effects that include buffs or debuffs (increase to intelligence or extra negative levels). Energy drain has a secondary system of temporary negative levels having a chance to become permanent after 24 hours, but being an instantaneous effect, the temporary negative levels (a debuff) can't be removed with a dispel magic.
Regardless, of the timing arguments, I'm glad to hear you've got a system that works. I was actually pretty excited about the Words of Power system when it was first announced, but ended up being pretty disappointed with the mechanical implementation.
Caedwyr wrote: How does awaken work? How does energy drain work? How does Wall of Stone work? All are instantaneous, but have long lasting effects that include buffs or debuffs (increase to intelligence or extra negative levels). Energy drain has a secondary system of temporary negative levels having a chance to become permanent after 24 hours, but being an instantaneous effect, the temporary negative levels (a debuff) can't be removed with a dispel magic. All those spells have instant durations because they have lasting effects. They don't have lasting effects because they have instant durations.
Furthermore WoP stonewall goes away after the spell effect. Normal stone wall does not.
It sounds like what you are saying is that the Duration given in the spell header is not what you should be paying attention to for figuring out a spell's duration. The thing is, with the Words of Power system, there's no other way of figuring out a spell's duration and the rule you've suggested above isn't included in either the core rulebook or in Ultimate Magic with the Words of Power system.
No dude. You're confusing what spell effects do. Some have lasting effects some don't.
Duration doesn't change what spells DO or how lasting their effects are.
I guess what my question is, is how do we know how duration is handled works differently between Words of Power and normal Vanacian spellcasting?
Also
Quote: Duration doesn't change what spells ... how lasting their effects are. Then what does Duration do? Why include it?
Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd provide a rules cite for why enhancement effects cannot be made permanent.
Caedwyr wrote: I guess what my question is, is how do we know how duration is handled works differently between Words of Power and normal Vanacian spellcasting? It's not handled differently. Duration in no way effects what a spell does and it's duration. An instantaneous duration means the spell disappears after an instant. IF the effects have persistent consequences (like damage) THEN they last past the spells duration. BUT the duration in NO WAY changes the properties of the spell.
There is not a lot of duration changing in Vanacian spellcasting but you would agree that extended spells are fundamentally the same as the un-augmented spells right? You would also agree that any spell made permanent by the permanency spell can be dispelled right?
For example spells that are dispelled have their duration ended right? So a dispelled spells duration becomes X+instantaneous (X being the time the spell was active). When you counter a spell with dispel magic the spell is never fully cast and thus has no duration.
Let's say I somehow create an extended fireball (or cast any other damage over time spell) If I dispel it does the damage go away? No of-course not damage is an effect that last longer than the spells duration. Same logic applies if I cast an instant enhancement buff. It leaves after an instant unless I cast permanency on it in that same instant.
Duration does not define the spells effect's persistence. They are unrelated.
But if I cast an instantaneous enhancement buff (transmutation most likely), can't I just as easily argue that the spell makes an alteration to the creature's physique that leaves it with increased strength (tougher muscle fibers, more muscles for strength; stronger bones and a boost to the general haleness due to an exercise-like effect for increased constitution, etc) with a persistent consequence? The thing about the words of power system, is it mostly just describes the mechanical effects, leaving the flavour of how they are implemented up to the player/GM. If you are arguing a flavour reason for why some instantaneous durations are different than others, then in a system where there aren't many flavour explanations given you are going to run into problems like this.
I mean, can't I just as easily say that a Healing effect Word + Change Effect word causes a persistent change to the target's body leaving it with an altered physique. The magic has come and gone and wrought persistent changes, but does not need to stay to grant any of the alterations. In other words, congratulations, you now have a claw and it is actually part of your body. This isn't an unheard of trope in fantasy literature, where magic is capable of causing all sorts of strange mutations that persist after the magic is gone.
No you can't. Making something that had a fixed duration and making it instantaneous DOES NOT EFFECT THE PERSISTENCE OF THE SPELL EFFECT!
No enchantment last past the spell duration effect except for those that cause physical or ability damage.
Enhancement bonuses DO NOT last past the duration of the spell. They are a magical effect. If you want to permanently effect a persons ability scores without making the duration permanent you need to inflict inherent bonuses or damage or drain.
DURATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PERSISTENCE OF SPELL EFFECTS
"instantaneous enhancement buff" does not mean persistent effects. Duration of instantaneous DOES NOT CHANGE THE SPELL.
Instantaneous duration != persistent spell effect
Changing the duration DOES NOT effect the properties of the spell.
You are falsely relating duration to the mechanical properties of the spell. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.
I had a big response to this, but the boards ate it and stopped showing it some time after it appeared to post.
To your first assertion, that enhancement bonuses cannot be persistent because they are inherently magical, I'd like to point you to Masterwork Weapons which have an enhancement bonus that is persistent and non-magical.
To your second assertion, I'd suggest looking at the flavour text of spells like Bull's Strength "The subject becomes stronger." or Resist Energy "This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.". Both of these then go on to describe their mechanical effects. Compare this to Awaken "You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience."
None of these spells talk about persistence or duration in their spell descriptions. The information is all included in the spell header on the Duration line. My question to you, is if duration is not a mechanical property of the spell, and the properties of the spell are given in the spell description, then why do none of these spells mention persistence, duration of effect or anything related to that matter in their spell descriptions?
I look forward to your response with rules citations. I'd be happy to be proven wrong due to having overlooked some sort of rule I was unfamiliar with. I started playing 3.x with PFRPG and only played a bit of 1e and a smattering of 2e beforehand, so I'm coming at this somewhat fresh and often miss things in the rules.
I'm just going to be straight with you. This kind of rules lawyering will not fly at most tables. You will plead for rules citations where 90% of GMs will tell you shut up.
Making a duration instantaneous does not make the spell permanent. In fact it does quite the opposite.
I don't need to cite a rule stating how two unrelated things are unrelated.I can't cite how your initiative bonus doesn't add to power attack damage either. That doesn't mean you can.There are not rules citations clarifying how things don't relate to each other.
AS for your pointed questions. The duration of those spell allow you to infer that the effects are persistent. BUT that does not mean the duration effects spell properties in anyway.
TRUE: If persistent, then duration can be instantaneous
False: If duration is instantaneous, then persistent spell effects
Having a durations of instantaneous allows you to RAI the spell. BY INFERENCE.
"Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting"
This only allows you to infer what the spell can do. Since we can assume paizo doesn't make spells that do not do anything, you can assume that a spell with instantaneous duration has persistent effects. YOU CANNOT assume that changing the spells duration makes the effect persistent.
I'm confused now. At no point have I been making a "GM please let this fly argument". It's always been a "look at this mechanical oddity of how the rules have been written" and a "be careful with this, since things don't appear to be internally consistent". Your follow-up statements appear to agree with this.
My big questions have always centered around how do we figure out in a manner that works consistently whether normal spells from the core rulebook, or spells built on the fly using the Words of Power system what is the duration and persistence of the effects? That's all I am asking. One method that I can apply equally when reading the text that works for both, or some sort of clarification, backed up by the written rules showing an exception for Words of Power.
Your statements about Inference seem to be saying "As a GM, it would be silly if the rules worked as they have been explicitly written, so I'm guessing they were meant to work in an alternate way". And I agree, that it's a reasonable GM interpretation. The wrench is, that looking at the rules logically in the build-your-own spells part of Words of Power, you end up having the instantaneous duration cause lasting effects some of the time, but not in others, and there is no real reason on a mechanical level for them to be interpreted differently. You can make some rulings as to how you are going to interpret things, but then you get corner cases like being unable to reproduce things like Metal to Wood, Flesh to Stone, Awaken, Wall of Stone and a number of other iconic spells from the core rulebook. Or, you end up with complete craziness of an whole whack of additional persistent effects.
You'll notice I've never been trying to argue RAI, just pointing out a funny quirk of the RAW.
Caedwyr wrote: You'll notice I've never been trying to argue RAI, just pointing out a funny quirk of the RAW. The problem is that you're wrong. There is no funny quirk about RAW. RAW doesn't state whether or not an instantaneous duration spell has persistent effects. Any spell like that has that duration has to either say it has persistent effects OR you have to RAI taking into account that paizo wouldn't make a spell that doesn't do anything. You can't apply the same logic to WoP because you are making the spell and you can easily make a spell that doesn't do anything. That is a feature about WoP not a quirk.
See you have no rules citation backing up your claim that a duration of instantaneous makes a spell effect persistent.
I'm saying that they don't effect each other. If I'm right their is no rule clarifying that things are unrelated.
If you're right there would be a rule stating as such, because you are adding a connection that is not apparent.
You can't assume things DO something without a rule and still claim that it is RAW. You can assume that unless there is a rule saying how one thing relates to another then they don't. Nothing says duration affects the persistence of the spell.
It's weird that you take a crack at inference when your whole argument is based on an inference of how the rules work.
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