Wurmcrusher's page

I guess my message here, is that if you are going to play around with the Words of Power system and you have any players that like to get clever or inventful with the system, the GM is going to have to nail down some fairly strict guidelines as to what will be allowed and what won't.

To be frank your interpretation of the instantaneous duration is wrong.

Duration
A spell's duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts

Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

The point of the instantaneous description is that it's effects such as a fireball will have lasting damage on a target. This means nothing in term of duration of effects. The effect happens and then disappears. Could you use a buff spell with a instantaneous duration spell with wop? Yes but it would be pointless the buff would occur and immediately go away. You're right the spell couldn't be dispelled because there would be no spell effect in the first place.

I'm fine with you sidetracking the thread but yes the point is wop is vague. It was a small section in UM and doesn't work well as a full spellcasting system except in specific cases. I know as a GM I will have to a lot of interpretation of the system if my players use it but for the most part the system works like other spellcasting systems. Spells have a duration and you cannot interpret instantaneous as permanent.

The link to a FAQ about full-round actions posted by Neo2151 has been removed but if anyone wants to read it, here's the thread.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pqkh?Granted-actions-vs-FullRound-Actions#1

In my opinion, if the spell accelerate gives an extra move action before using a full-round action there shouldn't be a problem with the interpretation of the spell. This is pretty much the spell equivalent of quick runner's shirt. It's not giving you movement as a swift action and is instead a separate action, but that's how I think it was intended to work.

I agree the wording on accelerate could be better but that's how I'm interpreting it; a movement action plus a full round action or two movement actions and a standard action etc. Even if accelerate could only give two move actions and a standard action I could see that having use.

Wurmcrusher wrote:

Oy don't pick fights. I do think it would be weird for a barbarian to ignore channel energy but if I was ruling an all or nothing approach on spells, sla's and supernatural for superstitious I'd need to include it. lol CLERIC STAHP!

Its not that he's ignoring it. There is no save against healing. None. It wouldn't matter if it was a paladin who actively TRIED to save against the healing. There is only a save for when it deals damage. I posted the quote with the area included for the save bolded earlier.

Ok I can't say he would try to save against something without a saving throw. The barbarian is healed and he has to deal with the cleric using supernatural abilities.

MrSin wrote:

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

I still maintain channel energy bypasses the barbarians superstition for healing seeing as how it only calls out a save for damage dealing, not healing :P

That sounds like fun.

Barbarian: STOP HEALING MEH!

Woah don't think you can ignore this gem you threw at us.

MrSin wrote:

Actually, forcing players to rely on each other is awful design.

Oy don't pick fights. I do think it would be weird for a barbarian to ignore channel energy but if I was ruling an all or nothing approach on spells, sla's and supernatural for superstitious I'd need to include it. lol CLERIC STAHP!

The WoP cleric cannot ever remove negative levels. Coming back from the dead by any method other than breath of life (which WoP doesn't offer either) or Ultimate Mercy with a material component leaves permanent negative levels. Temporary negative levels from sources other than spells become permanent if you fail the save at day's end. Permanent negative levels with no means to remove them are crippling.

This is not exactly true.

PURIFY (LIFE)
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 4, bard 4, cleric 4, druid 4, inquisitor 4, paladin 4, ranger 4
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions personal, selected
When a wordspell with this effect word is cast, the wordcaster chooses one type of affliction: curses, diseases, or poisons. The target of a wordspell with this effect word receives a new saving throw to immediately end all such afflictions of the chosen type currently affecting the target. The DC of this save is equal to the original DC of the affliction. The target must roll a saving throw for each affliction individually. If the affliction does not allow a saving throw, this effect word cannot remove that affliction.

Alternatively, a wordspell with this effect word can be used to remove 1d4 temporary negative levels possessed by the target, or 1 permanent negative level.

also,

REVIVE (LIFE)
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric 5, druid 5, witch 5
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
This effect word restores life to a living creature that has died within up to 1 hour per caster level. The soul of the target receives a clear image of the caster, and can choose not to return, causing the wordspell to fail. If the soul is willing, the target does not receive a saving throw.

The target is restored to life with 1 hit point, unless another effect word adds to this total. In addition, the target loses 50% of any prepared spells or spell slots it had before it died (determined randomly). Coming back from the dead in this way is an ordeal, and the target gains three permanent negative levels from the experience (if the target does not have at least 4 Hit Dice, a wordspell with this effect word has no effect).

While this effect word undoes any mortal wounds the target might possess, its body must otherwise be whole for the effect word to function. Any missing parts are still missing when the creature is restored. Normal poisons and diseases are cured as well, but magical afflictions remain. Undead creatures are unaffected by a wordspell with this effect word, as are the dead bodies of creatures that were undead. Constructs and outsiders cannot be restored to life by this effect word. Targets that died as a result of old age cannot be restored to life by this effect word.

LIFE TOUCH (LIFE)
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric 8, witch 8
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
This effect word functions as revive, but it can be used on a creature that has been dead for up to 1 day per caster level. The creature is restored with half its original hit points, and its body does not need to be whole (just a piece of the creature is required). Any parts of the creature that were missing before its death are not restored by this effect word. The creature gains only one permanent negative level from being restored by this effect word, and this negative level fades after 24 hours (although it can be removed early as normal). The creature retains all of the prepared spells and slots it had when it died.

A wordcaster can remove negative levels plus it does get an equivalent to breath of life.

EDIT: woops Marthkus beat me to it.

I'd think it would be pretty cool to see a barbarian dual wielding throwing axes moving and making a full attack due to accelerate. I think a ranged barbarian could work with this.

Marthkus wrote:

So why should barbars be the only ones who move and full attack?

You criticized giving everyone that ability as making games into rocket tag. Yet barbars should be the only full BAB martial to have it because?

On the flipside, martials do need something to help them keep up at higher levels. Vital strike is too feat intensive and is still very weak, and only helps people with large weapon dice. Like a hippo, which players are not. Barbarians shouldn't be the only ones with pounce, but I don't think relying on a specific buff is the way to go so much as to give them an additional combat option to help them do damage when they move. Preferably one that doesn't feat tax them, because feat taxes are lame and really kill the joy of taking feats.

In any campaign I run I would not want my PC's to be reliant on a buff that lasts 1 round/level. It's not going to work out for them. That said, using accelerate could considerably add to a party's damage in late levels. No one wants to see the party barbarian go all in and crush the BBEG alone. That would make the rogue who can make a few attacks a round feel useless because he just can't keep up with the barbarian. I see this more of a small dip for the wizard in the party so the party can deal with dangerous encounters as they get higher in level. It's impossible to say the buff balances melee classes because it's just a buff which they need help to get but it would help parties do damage rather than feel less and less useful as they increased in level.

Now we're back to why only the barbar should be allowed to do this?

If it is such a problem then barbars shouldn't have pounce.

Hold on for a moment. The purpose of this thread isn't to say barbarians aren't balanced or pounce isn't balanced. The point is to bring other martials to the barbarian's level and in general make melee more attractive of a choice in combat. I think accelerate can do that.

Something interesting I just realized in how this relates to combat maneuvers. If I had a fighter and I wanted to grapple the enemy spellcaster I could double move before grappling. Also now sunder could be used in the first round of combat to destroy all a BBEG's gear.

Marthkus wrote:

Or everyone just moves and full attacks with a buff spell.

So what I'm getting from you is that lvl 20 is always rocket tag and added full attacks to everyone who didn't build right is not going to do much to change that.

I've learned to leave options for ranged and melee and generally to focus ranged over the years because you get more oomph out of it. Level 20 is always rocket tag in my opinion yes.

Don't get me wrong, giving full attacks to the martials that weren't wise enough to grab a ranged option will certainly make a game changer for them and will be nice, but for the vast majority of gameplay I see, everyone grabs a bow to make sure they can make things explode if they can't get that full attack on melee.

So if ranged combat is stronger than melee how does that change when all your cool on attack effects can be applied to all melee attacks? If I have a rogue with TWF he could potentially get a lot of sneak attacks. I like the idea of giving a fighter, barbarian or whatever martial more options than I can full attack over here with my bow or I could walk up and smack that guy once with my morningstar.

Marthkus wrote:

Good luck getting to 20 if everyone specs for bow damage.

Bows aren't amazing unless you take the feats for it and spend money on it.

It takes 4 feats to be effective with a bow, more if you want to be great with them. All you need: point blank, precise, and rapid shot with deadly aim. Take an adaptive weapon (+1000 gold to price) and everything beyond that is gravy to the ability to full attack every single turn.

Its pretty easy to be effective with 2 handers and bows by level 20.

While it's easy to be more effective with these weapons, the barbarian is getting more out of the 2 handers simply because he gets every attack. That's where accelerate is helping other classes. Plus, being able to move and full attack removes the need to be good at using bows to do massive damage. It allows for more feat options if you want them.

Rocket tag refers to the super scaling of damage versus the scaling of survivability. At level 20 it means whomever wins initiative autowins combat because their enemies explode before they can take a turn.

So if the barbarian is the only martial that can 100 to 0 someone in melee at 20 by winning initiative why does he get to be special?

Well I guess I'm seeing the fighter is a little weak but when compared to the barbarian he seems extremely weak. Why play a fighter when a barbarian seems to do everything better with rage powers? Part of that I'm thinking stems from pounce. Out of all martial classes I think not having pounce effects the fighter the most because he lacks other super cool things.

I guess it's a problem with the fighter that you don't really get scaling class features.

I agree. Balancing the barbarian would be another discussion. My intention of having martials be able to full attack every round is more of bringing other classes on par with the barbarian's damage potential. It is still a buff though and would run out in a long fight.

What do you mean by rocket tag? I don't understand this.

Wurmcrusher wrote:

Even though there aren't many good feat trees doesn't the sheer number of feats you get help a lot? In my mind the fighter should be able to deal with more physical situations than a barbarian.

Well, it would, but you only get one more feat than rage powers. Class features usually are move valuable than feats. This is why I constantly state that no feat gives you scaling AC, flight, immunity to fear, blahblahblah. Rage and skill points happen to help more in skill checks than the fighters feats likely will. Over 18 levels at 18th level 1 skill point per level gives as many skill points as focused study. Mind you skill focus has its own merits. Many feats suffer from being +1's rather than giving options, having additional benefits, or scaling, which is what many class features are or do.

So most martials just are inferior to the barbarian in terms of damage-dealing potential? Some of those class features are really scaling hard for the barbarian and the fighter only gets feats and weapon and armor training. If the barbarian is the only one who gets cool things like pounce and is the only martial who will end up full-attacking every round this seems inbalenced. This is where I see a caster picking up accelerate. I know this isn't a class feature of the martial classes but it would help keep them relevant late in the game when you need to take advantage of all your attacks.

Ok if there is an easy way to drop rage and bring it back that would help with my problems with superstition. If the barbarian can wait one round he could get a heal spell from a cleric etc. Only problem is of course for one round your super saves are down.

Even though there aren't many good feat trees doesn't the sheer number of feats you get help a lot? In my mind the fighter should be able to deal with more physical situations than a barbarian.

Going back to my original post, I'd like to talk a bit about how quasi-pounce would effect other martials. Say for example I had a paladin with this buff with smile evil on, wouldn't his damage far outstrip a barbarian or fighter? Or if there was a rogue he could get more sneak attacks off. Please don't tell me the rogue couldn't hit a target in combat this is my campaign and a hypothetical situation assuming the ac scales to the rogue BAB and doesn't make him unable to hit.

Also, neither channel energy nor lay on hands nor the witches healing hex nor the bard's soothing performance are effected by superstition. The barbarian must save against all spells, but while she benefits from the bonus against supernatural and spell-like abilities she isn't forced to save against them. Summoning an outsider with cure SLAs is also a way to heal a "walking dead" barbarian.

Breath of Life also gets around the problem by working on the recently dead, though it would leave a temporary negative level.

As a GM I don't think I like the ability for the barbarian to be healed by supernatural or spell-likes circumventing his clear dislike of magic. In terms of roleplaying it doesn't make sense to me for the barbarian to get a bonus to saves against those effects but not take the same penalties he does against helpful spells. This really seems like a bit of unfair loophole to the fighter because the barbarian gets free saves without huge penalties.

I agree though breath of life would work great here.

As a side note one thing I've noticed about the sundering magic rage powers etc. is that they are used 1/rage. How often is a barbarian going to drop his rage in combat if he has to deal with fatigue until late in levels? I'm sure there could be an item workaround but if the Pc's do not have that item is it actually useful to drop rage for those 1/rage powers?

Pounce really is a bit of different problem. If the barbarian is going to invest three of his ten rage powers into pounce that really seems to be a lot of resources he could spend on other rage powers. I mean he only gets 10 powers so if his caster buddy picks up accelerate using feats your barbarian can now full attack without penalties due to charge and can do it well before level 10. I suppose part of my problem with this is the barbarian is not dependent on a caster for pounce but he could benefit from a caster with accelerate by taking other rage powers.

Are there no feat trees better than rage powers? The best ones I've seen stem from the superstitious tree and I'm leery of that power.

My response would be take the trait opportunistic gambler if you're worried about it(I probably wouldn't be between barbarian damage reduction, I'm an invulnerable rager fan myself, and the enhanced hit die its never come up. Its knocked me into the negatives, but never killed me. I mean I'd take the trait anyway its a great way to rage cycle, but not for that reason.)

Opportunistic gambler
:Effects that grant you morale bonuses(like rage) persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result. The rage is over so superstition is over, but your stamina and strength buff stays up for a d4 rounds plenty of time to heal. If your DM allows WoP he should allow that trait as well.

I'm a little unsure of your interpretation of opportunistic gambler. To me it sounds like it extends the effects of rage beyond the normal duration without you using more rounds of rage. This sounds like you are still under the effects of rage and are still raging. I don't think this means the other effects of superstition disappear if the regular effects of raging do nor disappear.

Because opportunistic gambler mentions an effect persisting for 1d4 rounds I see this as rage persisting because rage is the effect which gives the morale bonuses and therefore you could still not heal.

It's a nice trait for extending rage but I don't see it letting you heal.

Sorry for throwing if I'm throwing the thread off track at all.

You're not really going off topic here I've been thinking about that a bit too.

Wurmcrusher wrote:

Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?

Superstitious isn't just a boost to saves, its also the first in a chain of other powers. Its the prerequisite to Ghost Rager, Eater of Magic, Spell Sunder, and Witch Hunter. All of which are fantastic, and can't be replicated by other classes.

The barbarian still has other rage totems such as the fiendish and celestial totem lines. I'm not sure how you measure DPR because its full of variables. The barbarian still has access to many things the other martials don't, such as scaling natural armor, super saves, and abilities such as reckless abandon and come and get me.

Ok well I like the possible positives of superstitious such as the saves and fun anti-magic rage powers witch hunter in particular. Also I mentioned earlier VM mercenario's idea of buffing before the fighter rages but I have one problem with superstition. I don't like the possible negatives of saving against allied heals. If a combat has just ended and ending your rage would kill you could you still be healed if you had superstitious? I'm concerned you would die without the ability to heal because your friendly caster couldn't get through your high saves.

The main problem with the Words of Power is that it could have used a whole book, instead of a section devoted to being decent as a blaster and absolutely sucking and/or being completely unable to fill other spellcaster roles.

Yes I agree that WOP could certainly use more words and could be a more fleshed out magic system. However, I think WOP can sort of fit a quasi-buffing, dpr caster. Could the caster do much else? Not really but he isn't reliant at all on costly material components.

This is getting a little off the topic of my original post though. I really want to focus on what WOP could aid by either splashing it in a class or by doing a full WOP class and how that would impact the martials in the party. The system does need more work but I can see some potential.

Wurmcrusher wrote:

I recently saw a discussion in the What Fighters DO thread and I thought there is an interesting idea here to bring martials to a similar level as the barbarian. I know this is assuming help from a wizard party member but I want to focus discussion on the use of the spell accelerate and other words of power.

One major point I'm seeing here is the argument that words of power are helping overcome one of the things separating barbarians from other martials, pounce. I'm not seeing why it's a problem that it's labeled as an optional rule in a book that is not core anyway. If a GM wants to use it that's fine. It's no more valid or invalid than any other rule.

Another benefit I could see from using this is for the barbarian. One thing I'm not entirely sure on is how the barbarian benefits from having to be superstitious. I realize this gives him a nice bonus to saves and will prevent a chunk of damage in combat but I think it really could hurt his ability to survive due to it blocking allied spells as well. One argument I saw in the What Fighters DO thread was that buffs could be applied before combat but using the example of words of power makes this argument invalid due to the buffs given by the accelerate word lasting 1 round/level.

Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?

I think words of power would allow the fighter and other martials to catch up a bit to the barbarian's dpr.

Yeah if you have a DM that will allow Words of Power, that can be okay.

The sticky point is that most DMs won't allow Words of Power for several reasons. And using a whole extra system just to get that spell will smell of cheese to many others.
And barbarians, as I pointed in that other thread, have loads of awesome powers in the case of Beast totem becoming superfluous. Spirit Totem is pretty awesome....

First of all to be clear I'm the GM of my campaign and I'm looking at words of power for a number of reasons one of which being one of my PC's bringing it to my attention.

I think you have a reasonable idea with having a barbarian be buffed before a fight by not raging. That's a good plan and if using WOP can allow a barbarian to branch out into using rage powers other than beast totem that's a good thing. Yeah it's a little cheesy to use feats to get the accelerate power but honestly it could be just as cheesy to get extra spells on a words of power caster using feats. It's not exactly the same because there are better spells than words but that's really because spells have a more fleshed out system imo.

One thing I'm wondering here is if the fighter or other martials are still behind the barbarian in dpr if they now have access to pounce.

Words of Power isn't very good unless you already have a conventional caster in the important roles. It's also terrible for bards. There are too many important spells they can't match.

Ok I see where you are coming from in how it removes some important spells but I want to focus on the idea of using it for martial classes. I wouldn't expect a conventional caster to use words of power unless he wants to use a feat or two to get the ability to use the accelerate word. I was just wondering if giving the party pounce is worth the two feats experimental spellcaster and meta word mastery. That would really help out some of my parties without a barbarian to do dpr.

It doesn't seem to be a big dip for a lot of potential power.

I recently saw a discussion in the What Fighters DO thread and I thought there is an interesting idea here to bring martials to a similar level as the barbarian. I know this is assuming help from a wizard party member but I want to focus discussion on the use of the spell accelerate and other words of power.

One major point I'm seeing here is the argument that words of power are helping overcome one of the things separating barbarians from other martials, pounce. I'm not seeing why it's a problem that it's labeled as an optional rule in a book that is not core anyway. If a GM wants to use it that's fine. It's no more valid or invalid than any other rule.

Another benefit I could see from using this is for the barbarian. One thing I'm not entirely sure on is how the barbarian benefits from having to be superstitious. I realize this gives him a nice bonus to saves and will prevent a chunk of damage in combat but I think it really could hurt his ability to survive due to it blocking allied spells as well. One argument I saw in the What Fighters DO thread was that buffs could be applied before combat but using the example of words of power makes this argument invalid due to the buffs given by the accelerate word lasting 1 round/level.

Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?

I think words of power would allow the fighter and other martials to catch up a bit to the barbarian's dpr.

Those buffs have the same effects on all martials too. So there's no reason to consider them, Marthkus.

UM is not a bad source book, IMO (although I'm no big fan of UC), but WoP is a an optional rule, not a "everyone can take this". It' just a suggested houserule. An experiment.

The game is not designed with it in mind. And much more often than not, it's not played either...

From what I've seen the WOP rules are somewhat of an archetype for normal spells. I don't see it so much of an optional ruleset as another choice from UM that is underused due to confusion of the rules.