I recently saw a discussion in the What Fighters DO thread and I thought there is an interesting idea here to bring martials to a similar level as the barbarian. I know this is assuming help from a wizard party member but I want to focus discussion on the use of the spell accelerate and other words of power.
One major point I'm seeing here is the argument that words of power are helping overcome one of the things separating barbarians from other martials, pounce. I'm not seeing why it's a problem that it's labeled as an optional rule in a book that is not core anyway. If a GM wants to use it that's fine. It's no more valid or invalid than any other rule.
Another benefit I could see from using this is for the barbarian. One thing I'm not entirely sure on is how the barbarian benefits from having to be superstitious. I realize this gives him a nice bonus to saves and will prevent a chunk of damage in combat but I think it really could hurt his ability to survive due to it blocking allied spells as well. One argument I saw in the What Fighters DO thread was that buffs could be applied before combat but using the example of words of power makes this argument invalid due to the buffs given by the accelerate word lasting 1 round/level.
Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?
I think words of power would allow the fighter and other martials to catch up a bit to the barbarian's dpr.
So you guys are just going to ignore what OP wants to talk about?
Hell he set up a thread asking what happens to martial balance when X is in the game and your response is "X won't be in the game"
*eye twitch*
Words of Power isn't very good unless you already have a conventional caster in the important roles. It's also terrible for bards. There are too many important spells they can't match.
Ok I see where you are coming from in how it removes some important spells but I want to focus on the idea of using it for martial classes. I wouldn't expect a conventional caster to use words of power unless he wants to use a feat or two to get the ability to use the accelerate word. I was just wondering if giving the party pounce is worth the two feats experimental spellcaster and meta word mastery. That would really help out some of my parties without a barbarian to do dpr.
It doesn't seem to be a big dip for a lot of potential power.
I recently saw a discussion in the What Fighters DO thread and I thought there is an interesting idea here to bring martials to a similar level as the barbarian. I know this is assuming help from a wizard party member but I want to focus discussion on the use of the spell accelerate and other words of power.
One major point I'm seeing here is the argument that words of power are helping overcome one of the things separating barbarians from other martials, pounce. I'm not seeing why it's a problem that it's labeled as an optional rule in a book that is not core anyway. If a GM wants to use it that's fine. It's no more valid or invalid than any other rule.
Another benefit I could see from using this is for the barbarian. One thing I'm not entirely sure on is how the barbarian benefits from having to be superstitious. I realize this gives him a nice bonus to saves and will prevent a chunk of damage in combat but I think it really could hurt his ability to survive due to it blocking allied spells as well. One argument I saw in the What Fighters DO thread was that buffs could be applied before combat but using the example of words of power makes this argument invalid due to the buffs given by the accelerate word lasting 1 round/level.
Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?
I think words of power would allow the fighter and other martials to catch up a bit to the barbarian's dpr.
Yeah if you have a DM that will allow Words of Power, that can be okay.
The sticky point is that most DMs won't allow Words of Power for several reasons. And using a whole extra system just to get that spell will smell of cheese to many others.And barbarians, as I pointed in that other thread, have loads of awesome powers in the case of Beast totem becoming superfluous. Spirit Totem is pretty awesome. Knockback is like taking Improved Bullrush and Quick Bullrush at once with extra benefits, etc.
Also if you do have superstition and a caster with a good buff, you can wait a couple rounds before raging while he buffs. If you can't survive not raging for two rounds, a figher wouldn't fare much better.
I recently saw a discussion in the What Fighters DO thread and I thought there is an interesting idea here to bring martials to a similar level as the barbarian. I know this is assuming help from a wizard party member but I want to focus discussion on the use of the spell accelerate and other words of power.
One major point I'm seeing here is the argument that words of power are helping overcome one of the things separating barbarians from other martials, pounce. I'm not seeing why it's a problem that it's labeled as an optional rule in a book that is not core anyway. If a GM wants to use it that's fine. It's no more valid or invalid than any other rule.
Another benefit I could see from using this is for the barbarian. One thing I'm not entirely sure on is how the barbarian benefits from having to be superstitious. I realize this gives him a nice bonus to saves and will prevent a chunk of damage in combat but I think it really could hurt his ability to survive due to it blocking allied spells as well. One argument I saw in the What Fighters DO thread was that buffs could be applied before combat but using the example of words of power makes this argument invalid due to the buffs given by the accelerate word lasting 1 round/level.
Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?
I think words of power would allow the fighter and other martials to catch up a bit to the barbarian's dpr.
Yeah if you have a DM that will allow Words of Power, that can be okay.
The sticky point is that most DMs won't allow Words of Power for several reasons. And using a whole extra system just to get that spell will smell of cheese to many others.
And barbarians, as I pointed in that other thread, have loads of awesome powers in the case of Beast totem becoming superfluous. Spirit Totem is pretty awesome....
First of all to be clear I'm the GM of my campaign and I'm looking at words of power for a number of reasons one of which being one of my PC's bringing it to my attention.
I think you have a reasonable idea with having a barbarian be buffed before a fight by not raging. That's a good plan and if using WOP can allow a barbarian to branch out into using rage powers other than beast totem that's a good thing. Yeah it's a little cheesy to use feats to get the accelerate power but honestly it could be just as cheesy to get extra spells on a words of power caster using feats. It's not exactly the same because there are better spells than words but that's really because spells have a more fleshed out system imo.
One thing I'm wondering here is if the fighter or other martials are still behind the barbarian in dpr if they now have access to pounce.
One you assume the cleric is using words of power.
Accelerate (Time)
School transmutation; Level alchemist 2, bard 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selected
The target of a wordspell with this effect word can take one additional move action each turn. This move action can come before, after, or between other actions, but not during a full-round action.
Boost: If the target takes a full-attack action, it can, instead of taking an extra move action, make one additional attack at its highest attack bonus.
Note who can cast this word. Not clerics. So the person bringing words of power is arcane not divine (unless they are playing druid)
Also this word
Purify (Life)
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 4, bard 4, cleric 4, druid 4, inquisitor 4, paladin 4, ranger 4
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions personal, selected
When a wordspell with this effect word is cast, the wordcaster chooses one type of affliction: curses, diseases, or poisons. The target of a wordspell with this effect word receives a new saving throw to immediately end all such afflictions of the chosen type currently affecting the target. The DC of this save is equal to the original DC of the affliction. The target must roll a saving throw for each affliction individually. If the affliction does not allow a saving throw, this effect word cannot remove that affliction.
Alternatively, a wordspell with this effect word can be used to remove 1d4 temporary negative levels possessed by the target, or 1 permanent negative level.
Does everything but ability damage for free!
ALSO for see invisibility you have
Sense Hidden (Detection)
School divination; Level alchemist 2, bard 2, cleric 2, inquisitor 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2, witch 2
Duration concentration, up to 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Target Restrictions cone
This effect word allows the caster to see invisible creatures and objects. The caster can sense that the objects and creatures are hidden in this way, but he can still see them normally.
Boost: The caster can see through illusions, see the true form of polymorphed creatures and objects, and locate creatures protected by spells and effects that grant concealment. The caster also receives a +4 circumstance bonus on saves against illusion spells and effects. Boosting this effect word increases its level by 4.
Which can be boosted to a 6th level free true-sight.
Yes as a word caster you trade some things to gain others. Thankfully not every caster in your party has to be a word caster only 1 (or you just dip feats to grab the word you want)
The main problem with the Words of Power is that it could have used a whole book, instead of a section devoted to being decent as a blaster and absolutely sucking and/or being completely unable to fill other spellcaster roles.
That's just not true. Not every magic user in your campaign is WoP if one is. It is a separate way to do magic for the one PC who uses it.
If anything one arcane WoP caster and one normal divine caster cover more options than two normal casters.
EDIT: except for this part "Words of Power is that it could have used a whole book". I 100% feel the same.
The main problem with the Words of Power is that it could have used a whole book, instead of a section devoted to being decent as a blaster and absolutely sucking and/or being completely unable to fill other spellcaster roles.
Yes I agree that WOP could certainly use more words and could be a more fleshed out magic system. However, I think WOP can sort of fit a quasi-buffing, dpr caster. Could the caster do much else? Not really but he isn't reliant at all on costly material components.
This is getting a little off the topic of my original post though. I really want to focus on what WOP could aid by either splashing it in a class or by doing a full WOP class and how that would impact the martials in the party. The system does need more work but I can see some potential.
Yes I agree that WOP could certainly use more words and could be a more fleshed out magic system. However, I think WOP can sort of fit a quasi-buffing, dpr caster. Could the caster do much else? Not really but he isn't reliant at all on costly material components.
WoP casters do far more than dpr and buffing. Evocation got buffed so much that the higher level spells do more damage and are battlefield control.
Standard action summoning is a huge benefit to a WoP caster. Even though summoning multiple creatures is harder, you can do it at medium range. You can snipe with summons.
Your buffing is amazing, your dpr is great and your summons are vastly more useful.
Not to mention all the nice wall spells you get.
Then for high levels you have an 8th level selected reverse gravity (doesn't effect party members). Aniti magic field is a burst spell not an emanation around you at 6th level.
WoP is just a rebalanced caster. They do some things way better, but lose out on some niche spells normal casters have.
EDIT: Also mass dominate person as a fort or will save. Did I mention the ability to swap out fort and will saves? That brings up meta words and the meta word feat. Free meta magic so many times per day. More win!
Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?
Superstitious isn't just a boost to saves, its also the first in a chain of other powers. Its the prerequisite to Ghost Rager, Eater of Magic, Spell Sunder, and Witch Hunter. All of which are fantastic, and can't be replicated by other classes.
The barbarian still has other rage totems such as the fiendish and celestial totem lines. I'm not sure how you measure DPR because its full of variables. The barbarian still has access to many things the other martials don't, such as scaling natural armor, super saves, and abilities such as reckless abandon and come and get me.
Markthus, Glitterdust is arcane. It's how wizards (the ones with see invisible) render invisible enemies visible. It's not a niche you can afford to be without. Both wiz/sorc and cleric/oracle have catastrophic gaps in their abilities under WoP.
All the fancy standard action summons and exotic save or dies in the world won't make up for getting killed by a CR 2 imp or quasit or a CR 3 darkstalker. Even if you have a non-WoP cleric to cast invisibility purge (at level 5, which is 3 levels after at will invisibility starts showing up and even worse for oracles), glitterdust is the only solution for something with an at will miss chance SLA better than blur other than displacement.
WoP makes you a little better when you're already able to function. Real casters prevent monster designed with the assumption that every party will have a real caster from completely trashing you with no hope of meaningful retaliation.
Sense Hidden (Detection); caster sees invisibility.
Blind-fight or perception. Martials could care less about invisible creatures.
And what happens to the party if no one has glitter-dust or the one spell monster are supposedly designed around? They also made WoP with all this in mind.
Also second level summon spider has tremor sense and web. There is a way to handle invisibly creatures without glitter-dust, but still using a spell that a normal caster take 1 round to use.
Is it absolutely necessary to have superstition or do the benefits from rage powers a barbarian can get without taking superstitious or pounce outweigh the lack of good saves and full attack without a buff from your wizard friend?Superstitious isn't just a boost to saves, its also the first in a chain of other powers. Its the prerequisite to Ghost Rager, Eater of Magic, Spell Sunder, and Witch Hunter. All of which are fantastic, and can't be replicated by other classes.
The barbarian still has other rage totems such as the fiendish and celestial totem lines. I'm not sure how you measure DPR because its full of variables. The barbarian still has access to many things the other martials don't, such as scaling natural armor, super saves, and abilities such as reckless abandon and come and get me.
Ok well I like the possible positives of superstitious such as the saves and fun anti-magic rage powers witch hunter in particular. Also I mentioned earlier VM mercenario's idea of buffing before the fighter rages but I have one problem with superstition. I don't like the possible negatives of saving against allied heals. If a combat has just ended and ending your rage would kill you could you still be healed if you had superstitious? I'm concerned you would die without the ability to heal because your friendly caster couldn't get through your high saves.
Ok well I like the possible positives of superstitious such as the saves and fun anti-magic rage powers witch hunter in particular. Also I mentioned earlier VM mercenario's idea of buffing before the fighter rages but I have one problem with superstition. I don't like the possible negatives of saving against allied heals. If a combat has just ended and ending your rage would kill you could you still be healed if you had superstitious? I'm concerned you would die without the ability to heal because your friendly caster couldn't get through your high saves.
Yes, you would die. Its a major problem with rage that you die when it stops. Without Raging vitality or controlled rage, you actually die instantly if you go below 0 and your con is less than twice(or thrice!) your level. That's another thread though I believe.
In combat healing itself is usually not that helpful. Damage scales far faster than healing, and its much easier to remove the problem with CC or just killing it than bring someone back up to get full attacked again. Moment of Clarity in that situation would outright kill you. Oddly enough if you would die from removing rage you would already be dead without it. You would have a bigger chance of being alive and having the chance to be healed than being outright killed.
Buffing itself is great! But I like shrugging off things better. I'd rather save myself from a save or die or save or suck than have a little more attack or AC. Better alive and unbuffed than dominated or dead and buffed. Haste is amazing, but if I can already drop the foe its not needed. Come and get me gets more attacks at full BAB than haste will.
Sorry for throwing if I'm throwing the thread off track at all.
Sorry for throwing if I'm throwing the thread off track at all.
You're not really going off topic here I've been thinking about that a bit too.
Well I'm going to go a bit off topic myself for a moment and explain my theory as a GM on how a superstitious barbarian could not survive some encounters I make. If a normal barbarian drops to 0 he dies. That's given. However the way I see a superstitious barbarian is if he drops to 10 hp he can't come back from that and he'll die while a barbarian without superstitious can. I like the ability to shrug off save or sucks but as a GM I'm designing encounters to be challenging and if the barbarian drops to low hp he'll die and no one can save him. The superstitious barbarian might be able to avoid instant deaths but his inability to survive hp damage lowers the attractiveness of the rage power for me.
My response would be take the trait opportunistic gambler if you're worried about it(I probably wouldn't be between barbarian damage reduction, I'm an invulnerable rager fan myself, and the enhanced hit die its never come up. Its knocked me into the negatives, but never killed me. I mean I'd take the trait anyway its a great way to rage cycle, but not for that reason.)
Opportunistic gambler
:Effects that grant you morale bonuses(like rage) persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result. The rage is over so superstition is over, but your stamina and strength buff stays up for a d4 rounds plenty of time to heal. If your DM allows WoP he should allow that trait as well.
I'm a little unsure of your interpretation of opportunistic gambler. To me it sounds like it extends the effects of rage beyond the normal duration without you using more rounds of rage. This sounds like you are still under the effects of rage and are still raging. I don't think this means the other effects of superstition disappear if the regular effects of raging do nor disappear.
Because opportunistic gambler mentions an effect persisting for 1d4 rounds I see this as rage persisting because rage is the effect which gives the morale bonuses and therefore you could still not heal.
It's a nice trait for extending rage but I don't see it letting you heal.
One thing I'm wondering here is if the fighter or other martials are still behind the barbarian in dpr if they now have access to pounce.
Barbarians without Pounce are already ahead of Fighters without Pounce.
Think of it this way-
First, consider +1 to hit is worth about +2 to damage:
A Fighter with his best weapon class is getting +4 to hit and +8 to damage from Weapon Training (for totalish of +16 damage).
A Barbarian is getting +8 Strength from Rage with any weapon he picks up for a +4 Hit/+4(6) damage, depending on 1h or 2h (for a totalish of +12/+14 damage).
The Fighter has a bit better damage but only with one category of weapons. The Barb is slightly lower but can use his bonus with any weapon he wants to.
It's about even.
Once you add magic items, things go WAY in the Barb's favor, but that gives them the same "weakness" (ie: a barb want's his specific weapon because of enchantments and a Fighter wants his specific weapon because of Weapon Training).
In a situation where everything "goes according to plan" then the Barb is ahead. Throw a curveball in there where they have to use weapons they're not used to, and the Barbarian is anywhere from slightly behind to significantly ahead.
So bottom line? Combat ability washes out.
Where the classes REALLY differ is the rest of their abilities, and this is where Barbs pull ahead of Fighter.
Part of the reason is that Armor Training is only as good as your Dex score, which isn't great because you are too worried about pumping Str and Con (and depending on build, you might need that 13 Int for Combat Expertise).
The other part of the reason is that Rage powers are better than feats. Sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot. (A "maneuver" Fighter has to have a 13 Int, which takes away from his other stats, and has to potentially waste a feat on a prereq feat, and has to take two feats for every maneuver he wants to be great with. In contrast, the Barbarian needs a single Rage Power - and that Rage Power gives him a bonus WAAAY WAY above what the Fighter gets from his many Feats.)
(Another example is that there is no feat that lets you dispel magical effects. But there is a Rage Power.)
And then, to add insult to injury, the Barbarian gets all the other fun things too, like Uncanny Dodge, unconditional Damage Reduction, more skills per level, better class skill options, etc.
So, in summary, both classes are good at making things dead. But the Barb has better defenses and better skills, as well as powers that can be used to great effect even outside of combat.
To answer the original question: It depends.
Does the Barb have his weapon enchants? Then he's ahead. If not, then the Fighter is ahead.
But the important thing to remember is that the Barb can get Pounce all on his own, where as the Fighter can't. The caster in the Barb's group can use that spell slot on something more efficient than buffing the barb, where as in the Fighter's group, the caster still has to cast that spell every time.
Blind-fight or perception. Martials could care less about invisible creatures.Perception doesn't do anything about the miss chance unless you're playing the perception rules wrong. The DCs tend to be out of reach as well. (+20 to stealth for invisibility and then the distance penalties)
Blind Fight doesn't really solve things either. It helps, but only if you can pinpoint the enemy. You need Greater Blind Fight to bring the total concealment chance down below 25%, which requires you to be level 15 and costs 3 feats. And it's another low level feat you can't afford if you want to do anything more interesting than two handed power attack.
If I had veto power and was playing a fighter I'd still be vetoing Words of Power on non-redundant casters. Pounce is not better than having proper magical support.
Did you ignore just summoning a spider?
Anyways blind fight allows you to reroll the miss chance (50%) twice. When an enemy attacks you in melee you automatically pinpoint their location until they move.
But all that doesn't matter since you used a second level spell to web whatever invisible creature that was attacking you.
If you're going to die when coming out of rage you'd already be dead if you were a fighter.
Also, neither channel energy nor lay on hands nor the witches healing hex nor the bard's soothing performance are effected by superstition. The barbarian must save against all spells, but while she benefits from the bonus against supernatural and spell-like abilities she isn't forced to save against them. Summoning an outsider with cure SLAs is also a way to heal a "walking dead" barbarian.
Breath of Life also gets around the problem by working on the recently dead, though it would leave a temporary negative level.
Word casters get resurrection and true res and standard actions and free. (not that the cleric is taking WoP, but I thought I would mention it)
Also the barbar still saves against SLAs if they mimic a spell. I guess you could argue that channel energy, lay on hands and the like would 'technically work' but you can just as easily say that those SLAs ara more or less spells and require a save.
As far as health goes: When a Barb (any Barb) goes below his non-raging HP + Con score, unless he has something to help mitigate that HP drop, it's just safe to consider him dead.
The thing to remember here is that if you were playing a Fighter, you'd already be dead. The Barb got to keep fighting past his "expiration date."
Rage is not an excuse to just shrug off damage as unimportant. A player who treats it like that is just going to have to deal with character death.
The thing to remember here is that if you were playing a Fighter, you'd already be dead. The Barb got to keep fighting past his "expiration date."
Aid from a lantern archon for temporary health
Heal from a cleric or druid
False-Life from a normal arcane
Fortify from a WoP caster
Personally I like aid from a lantern archon (1d8+3 temp HP/round). The barbar with superstitious doesn't get any benefit from those examples. The barbar is reliant on channel energy while the fighter has a much larger pool to replenish his health from (potions, spells, temporary HP)
As stated time and time again, in-combat healing means you're losing. Which, in turn, means that casters rarely prepare in-combat bandaids like that. (And once you get past low levels, 1d8+3 goes away REAL fast.)
As stated time and time again, in-combat healing means you're losing. Which, in turn, means that casters rarely prepare in-combat bandaids like that. (And once you get past low levels, 1d8+3 goes away REAL fast.)
Then you have multiple archons with ready actions at the cost of one spell.
Not too mention the martial benefits from the archons passive magic-cicle and other abilities.
By the way. Heal is effective in combat healing. There will be some encounters where you will be losing and have to turn it around through healing and other resource burning.
Also, neither channel energy nor lay on hands nor the witches healing hex nor the bard's soothing performance are effected by superstition. The barbarian must save against all spells, but while she benefits from the bonus against supernatural and spell-like abilities she isn't forced to save against them. Summoning an outsider with cure SLAs is also a way to heal a "walking dead" barbarian.
Breath of Life also gets around the problem by working on the recently dead, though it would leave a temporary negative level.
As a GM I don't think I like the ability for the barbarian to be healed by supernatural or spell-likes circumventing his clear dislike of magic. In terms of roleplaying it doesn't make sense to me for the barbarian to get a bonus to saves against those effects but not take the same penalties he does against helpful spells. This really seems like a bit of unfair loophole to the fighter because the barbarian gets free saves without huge penalties.
I agree though breath of life would work great here.
As a side note one thing I've noticed about the sundering magic rage powers etc. is that they are used 1/rage. How often is a barbarian going to drop his rage in combat if he has to deal with fatigue until late in levels? I'm sure there could be an item workaround but if the Pc's do not have that item is it actually useful to drop rage for those 1/rage powers?
Pounce really is a bit of different problem. If the barbarian is going to invest three of his ten rage powers into pounce that really seems to be a lot of resources he could spend on other rage powers. I mean he only gets 10 powers so if his caster buddy picks up accelerate using feats your barbarian can now full attack without penalties due to charge and can do it well before level 10. I suppose part of my problem with this is the barbarian is not dependent on a caster for pounce but he could benefit from a caster with accelerate by taking other rage powers.
Are there no feat trees better than rage powers? The best ones I've seen stem from the superstitious tree and I'm leery of that power.
Going back to my original post, I'd like to talk a bit about how quasi-pounce would effect other martials. Say for example I had a paladin with this buff with smile evil on, wouldn't his damage far outstrip a barbarian or fighter? Or if there was a rogue he could get more sneak attacks off. Please don't tell me the rogue couldn't hit a target in combat this is my campaign and a hypothetical situation assuming the ac scales to the rogue BAB and doesn't make him unable to hit.
Did you ignore just summoning a spider?
Anyways blind fight allows you to reroll the miss chance (50%) twice. When an enemy attacks you in melee you automatically pinpoint their location until they move.
But all that doesn't matter since you used a second level spell to web whatever invisible creature that was attacking you.
Martials don't have the ability to summon spiders, and web doesn't make you visible. Oddly enough it gives them cover too. Your still rolling for miss, even if you can reroll its still a pain and a chance to lose your attack. There's also no guarantee you'll hit with the web, or that you know where the monster is after webbing the area and turning it into difficult terrain. Mind you without words of power, you can just use glitter dust and have a chance to blind the foe too!
As a side note one thing I've noticed about the sundering magic rage powers etc. is that they are used 1/rage. How often is a barbarian going to drop his rage in combat if he has to deal with fatigue until late in levels? I'm sure there could be an item workaround but if the Pc's do not have that item is it actually useful to drop rage for those 1/rage powers?
Pounce really is a bit of different problem. If the barbarian is going to invest three of his ten rage powers into pounce that really seems to be a lot of resources he could spend on other rage powers. I mean he only gets 10 powers so if his caster buddy picks up accelerate using feats your barbarian can now full attack without penalties due to charge and can do it well before level 10. I suppose part of my problem with this is the barbarian is not dependent on a caster for pounce but he could benefit from a caster with accelerate by taking other rage powers.
Are there no feat trees better than rage powers? The best ones I've seen stem from the superstitious tree and I'm leery of that power.
1/rage powers are usually some of the worst I think. Spell Sunder is one the best however, and its fun. People try to figure out ways to rage cycle all the time. A dip into oracle at 9 for instance makes you immune to fatigue. When you get tireless rage you just drop and redo rage on a whim to spam them. A second save once per encounter and the ability to shut down any spell are both pretty righteous!
1 of those rage powers spent is on beast totem. Scaling natural armor is awesome. The claws are nifty, but probably won't come into play unless your using natural attacks. I hate being dependent on buffs myself. They aren't the most reliable things in the world.
There are sadly few good feat trees to begin with. That's one of the problems for the fighter. If there are any all the martials have access to them too. The barbarian has some good rage powers, just look at other totems. Beyond them and superstitious I don't think there are many good ones. Ferocious Beast is amazing if you have a mount and rage rounds to spare.
Ok if there is an easy way to drop rage and bring it back that would help with my problems with superstition. If the barbarian can wait one round he could get a heal spell from a cleric etc. Only problem is of course for one round your super saves are down.
Even though there aren't many good feat trees doesn't the sheer number of feats you get help a lot? In my mind the fighter should be able to deal with more physical situations than a barbarian.
Even though there aren't many good feat trees doesn't the sheer number of feats you get help a lot? In my mind the fighter should be able to deal with more physical situations than a barbarian.
Well, it would, but you only get one more feat than rage powers. Class features usually are move valuable than feats. This is why I constantly state that no feat gives you scaling AC, flight, immunity to fear, blahblahblah. Rage and skill points happen to help more in skill checks than the fighters feats likely will. Over 18 levels at 18th level 1 skill point per level gives as many skill points as focused study. Mind you skill focus has its own merits. Many feats suffer from being +1's rather than giving options, having additional benefits, or scaling, which is what many class features are or do.
Did you ignore just summoning a spider?
Anyways blind fight allows you to reroll the miss chance (50%) twice. When an enemy attacks you in melee you automatically pinpoint their location until they move.
But all that doesn't matter since you used a second level spell to web whatever invisible creature that was attacking you.
Martials don't have the ability to summon spiders, and web doesn't make you visible. Oddly enough it gives them cover too. Your still rolling for miss, even if you can reroll its still a pain and a chance to lose your attack. There's also no guarantee you'll hit with the web, or that you know where the monster is after webbing the area and turning it into difficult terrain. Mind you without words of power, you can just use glitter dust and have a chance to blind the foe too!
Web (Ex) Creatures with the web ability can use webs to support themselves and up to one additional creature of the same size. In addition, such creatures can throw a web up to eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the web spinner. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst the web with a Strength check. Both are standard actions with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier. Attempts to burst a web by those caught in it suffer a –4 penalty.
Web spinners can create sheets of sticky webbing up to three times their size. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Perception check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot-square section of web has a number of hit points equal to the Hit Dice of the creature that created it and DR 5/—.
A creature can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.
Format: web (+8 ranged, DC 16, 5 hp); Location: Special Attacks.
Giant wiggling masses are easy to deal with it.
Martial takes ready action. Invisible creature melee attacks martial and then gets attacked by martial. 50% miss chance isn't enough to save an imp.
Range invisible creatures attack you and then take a -20 to stealth checks due to snipping counteracting invisibility bonuses.
YES WoP caster doesn't get glitterdust. It's like two different things are better at different things.
This doesn't mean the party can't handle invisible creatures though. The wizard has like 1 glitter-dust prepared. What happends if he misses that 20ft burt or God forbid 2 invisible creatures that aren't standing next to each other.
A WoP caster is more likely to deal with invisible creatures because he will have more summon monster than a normal caster has glitter-dust.
Furthermore its not like that situation happens more than 2-3 times a campaign.
Even though there aren't many good feat trees doesn't the sheer number of feats you get help a lot? In my mind the fighter should be able to deal with more physical situations than a barbarian.Well, it would, but you only get one more feat than rage powers. Class features usually are move valuable than feats. This is why I constantly state that no feat gives you scaling AC, flight, immunity to fear, blahblahblah. Rage and skill points happen to help more in skill checks than the fighters feats likely will. Over 18 levels at 18th level 1 skill point per level gives as many skill points as focused study. Mind you skill focus has its own merits. Many feats suffer from being +1's rather than giving options, having additional benefits, or scaling, which is what many class features are or do.
So most martials just are inferior to the barbarian in terms of damage-dealing potential? Some of those class features are really scaling hard for the barbarian and the fighter only gets feats and weapon and armor training. If the barbarian is the only one who gets cool things like pounce and is the only martial who will end up full-attacking every round this seems inbalenced. This is where I see a caster picking up accelerate. I know this isn't a class feature of the martial classes but it would help keep them relevant late in the game when you need to take advantage of all your attacks.
So most martials just are inferior to the barbarian in terms of damage-dealing potential? Some of those class features are really scaling hard for the barbarian and the fighter only gets feats and weapon and armor training. If the barbarian is the only one who gets cool things like pounce and is the only martial who will end up full-attacking every round this seems inbalenced. This is where I see a caster picking up accelerate. I know this isn't a class feature of the martial classes but it would help keep them relevant late in the game when you need to take advantage of all your attacks.
Well, not just the barbarian compared to the fighter. Another example is the ranger. Combat style gives you more feats and without prereqs, in some cases many levels before they come online for fighters because of level prereqs. He also gets spell casting, an animal companion, and 4 more skill points per level. All things the fighter does not have a chance to get, and favored enemy can actually hit more and harder than weapon training. Paladin doesn't just have smite. He has the option to get an animal companion or a special weapon. He also has auras and spell casting. His first aura puts bravery into even more shame than the shame that is being bravery brings on its own. Feats don't add up to these things. Fighter is just an example because his main class features are feats, but I think feats being a little on the weak side is part of the problem, rather than the fighter himself.
As to the balance of barbarian, I think that's another discussion and not one I want to participate in. The fact moving hurts martials damage and it only gets worse as you level is likely unrelated to the barbarian himself. You have to remember that if everyones full attacking every round and going full force, the game can quickly turn into rocket tag. YMMV on that.
Well I guess I'm seeing the fighter is a little weak but when compared to the barbarian he seems extremely weak. Why play a fighter when a barbarian seems to do everything better with rage powers? Part of that I'm thinking stems from pounce. Out of all martial classes I think not having pounce effects the fighter the most because he lacks other super cool things.
I guess it's a problem with the fighter that you don't really get scaling class features.
I agree. Balancing the barbarian would be another discussion. My intention of having martials be able to full attack every round is more of bringing other classes on par with the barbarian's damage potential. It is still a buff though and would run out in a long fight.
What do you mean by rocket tag? I don't understand this.
Rocket tag refers to the super scaling of damage versus the scaling of survivability. At level 20 it means whomever wins initiative autowins combat because their enemies explode before they can take a turn.
Now wait a minute. All throughout these boards are people complaining about the fundamental problem martials have to casters is that casters can move and be fully effective while martials can't. Even James Jacobs feels that way to the point when asked if X would make the fighter over powered he responded "Nope they still move and lose most of their effectiveness while casters don't"
Also this thread is more than just barbar vs fighter with accelerate. The question is how accelerate effects all martial balance. Rogues, monks, rangers, paladins, barbars, fighters, ninjas, cavaliers, summons, melee-druids, melee-bards, and more
Mid game accelerate turns into a 5th level mass buff to one person per level. This effects more than the barbar vs fighter debate.
Rocket tag refers to the super scaling of damage versus the scaling of survivability. At level 20 it means whomever wins initiative autowins combat because their enemies explode before they can take a turn.
So if the barbarian is the only martial that can 100 to 0 someone in melee at 20 by winning initiative why does he get to be special?
JUST A DEFINITION OF ROCKET TAG.
Half of my response goes to Mr. Sin and what he meant by rocket tag. Since he didn't say what he meant I responded to you.
So if the barbarian is the only martial that can 100 to 0 someone in melee at 20 by winning initiative why does he get to be special?Most people just pick up a bow and do it. 5 attacks with a bow at level 20 usually means instadeath of even another martial. Its not only for melee's and its not only for martials. Everything is basically autodeath for a well built 20.
Good luck getting to 20 if everyone specs for bow damage.
Bows aren't amazing unless you take the feats for it and spend money on it.
Melee druids are doing just fine. While they look meh on paper, they make up for it by using pounce to evade the "move or be effective" dichotomy.
Melee druids are doing just fine. While they look meh on paper, they make up for it by using pounce to evade the "move or be effective" dichotomy.
Everyone can move and attack in this situation, so the fact they get pounce is moot.
Also I wouldn't like to limit my druid to "only forms with pounce"