This may be relevant (along with the following strips.
Basically, if you insist that players search everything, they will search everything. That's not fun for anyone.
Well... I allow players to describe their searching methods if they want to do it in a specific manner, but otherwise, the Perception check is enough to find whatever there is to be found, assuming they roll high enough, of course.
Now, if there is a trap, let's say... A chest that explodes when open, they can't know that, so if they didn't roll high enough to find the trap, I'll assume their characters search the chest in the most obvious way, that is, opening it, and therefore, triggering the trap.
I used to require them to announce it when they're looking for traps, but all that achieved was getting a "I search the room... While looking for traps." instead of a simple "I search the room."
It' hard to make the "walk at half speed if searching for traps" rule matter. If they are not in combat, and not in a very strict time limit, there is not much of a point...
Checking the room for me equals looking for hidden objects, doors, people, and so on, but not traps, unless the trap is built into the floor, ceiling, or wall.
If an particular item is trapped, or a door is trapped then it has to be checked separately. That is just how I do it, and I am not saying it is a rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Checking the room for me equals looking for hidden objects, doors, people, and so on, but not traps, unless the trap is built into the floor, ceiling, or wall.
If an particular item is trapped, or a door is trapped then it has to be checked separately. That is just how I do it, and I am not saying it is a rule.
But how do they search the room without searching for traps? How do they search for traps without searching the room?
They look around and check everyting in the room. Why would they note, say... a hidden dagger, but not a trap trigger?
All it does is make the players add "...while searching for traps" or some such to the end of their descriptions.
Now, to address the OP, this is how I try to make my players give me more detailed descriptions:
- I give them detailed descriptions of the enviroment they're in. Hopefully, one of them will take an interest in something I described.
- Hide stuff where there is more than a skill check involved. e.g.: "You find a hidden drawer in the desk, but it's locked", now the character has to do something else, use Disable Device to unlock it, break the desk to see what is inside the hidden drawer, use a spell to open it, etc...
- I give bonuses to skill checks for detailed/creative descriptions. (I never give them a penalty, though). Sure, you can say "I use Diplomacy to convince the blacksmith to lower his price for the sword", but if you tell me what arguments you used, and if they are good/interesting/creative enough, you get a +2, a +4, even a +10! All you need is to do is give me a cool description.
- I try and describe my characters' actions as much as I can, both as a player and as GM. Maybe this 'll give them some inspiration.
My rock golens don't simply attack, they shape their hands as massive spiked clubs before striking true. My monsters don't simply miss the PCs, no, the PCs avoid the attack by ducking at the last moment, or they block the Giant's axe with their own weapon! (although I admit some times I'll run out of inspiration and simply say "they missed"... It happens to all of us... lol)
I'd have to agree with those suggesting that searching be kept nice and simple. Going into every single little detail of the search is usually more of a frustrating slog than it is an enjoyable experience. After once spending four with the game at a complete standstill because we couldn't figure out the one ridiculously specific no-clues-provided course of action we needed to find the next plot token hidden in the room, I prefer to just take care of things fast and easy.
Checking the room for me equals looking for hidden objects, doors, people, and so on, but not traps, unless the trap is built into the floor, ceiling, or wall.
If an particular item is trapped, or a door is trapped then it has to be checked separately. That is just how I do it, and I am not saying it is a rule.
But how do they search the room without searching for traps? How do they search for traps without searching the room?
They look around and check everyting in the room.
- I ..
They don't have to search everything for traps. If they are going to open a desk they get check for that. If they are not going to open or touch the desk it is a non-issue.
Checking the room for me equals looking for hidden objects, doors, people, and so on, but not traps, unless the trap is built into the floor, ceiling, or wall.
If an particular item is trapped, or a door is trapped then it has to be checked separately. That is just how I do it, and I am not saying it is a rule.
That's where the disconnect between "searching the room" and "searching for traps" becomes so bizarre. Anything that involves a box/container is prime trap-bait. So, drawers, chests, and hatches get checked for traps. But, saying HOW you check them runs contrary to "narrate your search of the room, but not counting trap-checking" and having a skill that allows you to safely search for traps. Once you've abstracted the search for traps, how do you codify what aspects of your interaction with the object are still necessary?
The "describe how you're searching the room" philosophy immediately makes me think the GM is going for a "so... you put your hand inside it?" type traps. So, now do we add a metagame Perception roll before every facet of the search mantra? When, allegedly, the point is to encourage less die rolling?
That is different. Describing how you search the room is like saying check under the rug. I don't take it that far. I don't make you narrate how you are checking, just the specific things you intend to touch or manipulate.
They don't have to search everything for traps. If they are going to open a desk they get check for that. If they are not going to open or touch the desk it is a non-issue.
True, but when they search the desk, they search it as throughly as they can (or in this case, as throughly as they rolled).
Why would they notice a hidden compartment but not a bunch of poisoned blades? If they rolled high enough to find the blades (e.g.: the Perception DC to find the compartment is a 15, the Perception DC for the trap is 20, the character got a 28 on her Perception check), would you say they trigger the trap simply because the player didn't say "I'm looking for traps"?Doesn't "search" include looking for anything of interest? If you see the knives, you won't ignore it simply because it's not what you expected to find.
For me, I allow both player success and character success.
Some players are clever. Or they think they are. Either way, letting the player know that his cleverness paid off is a better reward than giving him loot. Usually. So if a player announces that he wants his character to search for false bottoms in the desk drawer and I know there is one, I will either let him auto-find it or at least give big circumstance bonus to his roll (how much is more a matter of how descriptive the player is and how concealed the hidden thing is).
Some players work hard to build a character who is good at finding stuff. I have one right now, a level 6 druid with +24 on his Perception checks. I go out of my way to let him find stuff that everyone else misses, just to reward him for putting that effort into a more or less non-essential aspect of his character. What I don't do is make the player be more observant than his amazingly perceptive druid - obviously any character with that kind of Perception check is way better at knowing where to look and what to look for than any of us sitting at a gaming table, and the character should not be limited by its player.
Both kinds of success reward good game play, either clever playing or solid character development. I see it as my job to make sure they both get rewarded often enough to motivate the players to continue putting in the effort.
|
Ah yes... Dramatically mis-characterizing someone's argument always makes you look like a genius, right?No, "hiding things" isn't a meme. Shaggy and Scooby leaning on the mantle and making the fireplace spin around is a meme. Smashing every barrel, crate, and clay pot in the room because there might be a gold coin in them is a meme. The secret document being in the flower pot/lamp/hollowed out pumpkin is a meme.
If, as has been said, your party will look at you like you're a creative genius if you make them play "Outburst: Search the Room Edition" until someone shouts "empty the dirt out of the flower pot," then do it. Having fun = doing it right.
Now, if your party is just reciting their search the room mantra over and over ("Lift the rugs, cut open the mattress, dump out the flower pot, knock all the books out of the bookshelf, press every individual brick in the walls/floor/ceiling, and smash every desk/bureau/chest/barrel while setting anything not covered by the above on fire."), then are they having fun, or are you just burning the clock so your adventure runs four hours?
I just don't really envision a group of players gathered before the game, discussing the things they look forward to, and having one say, "Man, I'm gonna search the hell out of some rooms tonight!"
As you have said, different groups have different styles. And if your table has such little variety that you find yourselves in a situation where you can routinely use a 'room mantra', then that's probably an issue in and of itself.
But that's not an argument against searching as much as it is an argument against boredom. Which seems like a point, but mostly isn't.
Do you really need to get all that boring searching out of the way for the 'combat mantra' to take its place? ("I attack. I attack again. I attack. This time I attack.") Same animal, slightly different angle.
As the poster above me said, there's room for both. Plus it gives searchy characters and classes chances to shine.
Finally, I'd hope you can remember at least one item that was found in a unique location fondly. I know most of my players can.
One thing that I've found helps avoid the complacency that follows "we search the room" is to reveal one hidden element per successful 'search'. Even if the group got a high enough Perception to find, say, two secret doors in the same room, I'll roll randomly to see which one they got to first, and announce "You found a secret door at X spot." It's up to them to say "We keep searching: was there anything else?" It's a relatively rare event for a room to have two secrets worth finding, and this method exploits the natural human reaction to stop looking once something more interesting appears.
That actually makes sense, but I'd feel like I'm cheating the players if I used this rule.
I think the real question is:
When does a player's descriptions of her actions stop being role playing and real choice to become needless grinding and pointless dice rolling?
I handle it they way I handle most skill checks. RP adjusts the DCs. If the search the room as a whole the DC is at its hardest. If the search a specific area (that has a secret) the DC is lower. If they truly seem like they are systematically attacking a single spot or tossing the entire room systematically I will lower the DC even more.
One thing that I've found helps avoid the complacency that follows "we search the room" is to reveal one hidden element per successful 'search'. Even if the group got a high enough Perception to find, say, two secret doors in the same room, I'll roll randomly to see which one they got to first, and announce "You found a secret door at X spot." It's up to them to say "We keep searching: was there anything else?" It's a relatively rare event for a room to have two secrets worth finding, and this method exploits the natural human reaction to stop looking once something more interesting appears.That's obnoxious.
I hope you at least tell them they won't find more than one thing per roll?
I guess they just keep rolling until they get a good roll without finding anything?
Would Taking 20 work the same way?
Have to agree there. It just makes things take longer without actually adding anything of value. Is roleplay really improved because they say "I search the room" half a dozen times instead of just once?