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Now I agree that the Fighter needs some changes, more class skills, skill points and perhaps just a little something extra.
Please only reply if you read the whole post.
That said, I notice that many complaints arise from people who don't like fiddly little +1s. This is what the fighter is all about. The fighter lives for +1 fiddly bits. Weapon training is the difference between being able to effectively power attack while you're using a tower shield or not.
See what I mean?
For example, say you have two combatants, Gronk and Bob. Gronk has an attack bonus of +20 +15, Bob wields a longsword and has an AC of 31 and 22 strength and likes to power attack, but he's not using his +1 heavy shield (he has greater shield focus), in favour of using his sword two-handed.
So Gronk has a 50% chance of hitting Bob with his first attack, and a 25% chance on the second.
If Bob equips his shield he sacrifices 6 (he's 8th level) points of damage per attack but gains "only" 5 points of AC. How ever Gronk's chance of hitting drops to 25%, and 5%.
Regardless of whether these tactics are sound or not, in my opinion this illustrates quite nicely how even fairly small numbers can add up to have a significant impact on combat.
+7 AC (a +5 heavy shield) doesn't sound like much at 20th level, does it? It seems insignificant until you realize that (as long as you haven't completely dumped your AC) it still represents a 5% reduction per point of AC to your enemy's chance to hit, or in this case a 35% reduction in hit percentage.
The fighter is the king of accuracy, because the system is miserly when it comes to hit chance. it makes you spend a feat just to get +1 with one weapon! But the Fighter gets an additional +5 over anyone else over the course of his career, that is not insignificant, it's a 25% boost in accuracy per attack, because each point represents an additional number on your die that will register a hit. This tends to be obscured by people forgetting about the third and fourth iterative at higher levels, forgetting about the mechanics of the D20 and not thinking in terms of percentages.
A relevant quote:
you know, he'd be a pretty good warrior if he had a better head for numbers
I forgot to mention that This was in relation to EldonG's thread and I was thinking terms of inexhaustible resources, so I'm not factoring things like Rage or instant enemy in when I say +5 over anybody else.
Very good points Ichigeki. I think the number of encounters between resting affects how powerful the fighter is in comparison to a barbarian- if you have fewer encounters per day the barbarian's rage outshines even a well-optimized fighter. A well-optimized fighter has options for maximizing attack rolls, damage, or AC. But a raging barbarian has a bonus to attack, damage, and hit points without having to optimize any of the three.
My observation is that fighters are the most effective class with a ten-point point buy. Their combat effectiveness is dependent on feat selection and equipment. MAD classes have trouble (especially at low levels) with low point buy or low attributes, and a fighter can carry a low point buy party. Because a fighter is easy to make effective at low levels (power attack, cleave, weapon focus, combat reflexes, and vital strike all are very effective at low levels) there might be an assumption by a lot of players that it should be as easy to make a fighter effective at medium and higher levels. Almost any fighter feat adds to combat effectiveness for the first few levels, by level 6 a feat has to work in conjunction with other feats to have a similar effect.
You made very good points without raising an obvious question, I hope this response is appropriate to the thread you've started.
I think the issue might stem more from the fact that, at low levels, what makes fighters effective is pretty obvious. It's very easy to see how Power attack helps at levels 1-3. Weapon focus and combat reflexes also have clear usefulness. You want more of a dex-based build? Easy: Dodge and Combat Expertise. Etc.
As you get into more advanced levels, you have so many more options. Each of those "obvious" feats at your first three-four levels opens up one or more feat trees. Once you take Power Attack, you have to decide if you want to be a cleave-monster or go the overrun/bull rush route. After Dodge, do you want to go down the Mobility-Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack road or should you follow any of the Improved and Greater Maneuvers that open up from Combat Expertise? And once you grab Weapon Focus, doesn't Dazzling Display start to look tempting?
To me, higher level fighters are harder to build because they have too many possibilities and too many different ways to be effective.
My newly-sixth level Earthbreaker fighter is having a tough time deciding between starting the Disruptive tack, staying on with Improved Overrun/Charge Through/Greater Overrun, or leveraging her +14 Intimidate check with Dazzling Display (demoralize all enemies in 30 ft) or Enforcer (when you deal non-lethal damage, demoralize an enemy to leave him shaken for as many rounds as damage you just dealt). The idea of leaving an enemy shaken for 2d6+13 rounds has a certain appeal...
Eventually, of course, she'll break down and pick up Weapon Specialization, but honestly, she hasn't needed it yet. Hasn't noticed a lack of Cleave, either, come to think of it.
Very good points Ichigeki. I think the number of encounters between resting affects how powerful the fighter is in comparison to a barbarian- if you have fewer encounters per day the barbarian's rage outshines even a well-optimized fighter. A well-optimized fighter has options for maximizing attack rolls, damage, or AC. But a raging barbarian has a bonus to attack, damage, and hit points without having to optimize any of the three.
My observation is that fighters are the most effective class with a ten-point point buy. Their combat effectiveness is dependent on feat selection and equipment. MAD classes have trouble (especially at low levels) with low point buy or low attributes, and a fighter can carry a low point buy party. Because a fighter is easy to make effective at low levels (power attack, cleave, weapon focus, combat reflexes, and vital strike all are very effective at low levels) there might be an assumption by a lot of players that it should be as easy to make a fighter effective at medium and higher levels. Almost any fighter feat adds to combat effectiveness for the first few levels, by level 6 a feat has to work in conjunction with other feats to have a similar effect.
You made very good points without raising an obvious question, I hope this response is appropriate to the thread you've started.
To me the Barbarian is a supplement to the Fighter, not a replacement. They lack ranged capacity and are not defensively sound. Having hit points is meaningless without AC or another form of mitigation because they evaporate after a single full-attack. They rely on sheer offense to carry them through encounters, and it does, but it's really inefficient (IMO) because it turns them into resource sinks for the whole party.
Very good points Ichigeki. I think the number of encounters between resting affects how powerful the fighter is in comparison to a barbarian- if you have fewer encounters per day the barbarian's rage outshines even a well-optimized fighter. A well-optimized fighter has options for maximizing attack rolls, damage, or AC. But a raging barbarian has a bonus to attack, damage, and hit points without having to optimize any of the three.
My observation is that fighters are the most effective class with a ten-point point buy. Their combat effectiveness is dependent on feat selection and equipment. MAD classes have trouble (especially at low levels) with low point buy or low attributes, and a fighter can carry a low point buy party. Because a fighter is easy to make effective at low levels (power attack, cleave, weapon focus, combat reflexes, and vital strike all are very effective at low levels) there might be an assumption by a lot of players that it should be as easy to make a fighter effective at medium and higher levels. Almost any fighter feat adds to combat effectiveness for the first few levels, by level 6 a feat has to work in conjunction with other feats to have a similar effect.
You made very good points without raising an obvious question, I hope this response is appropriate to the thread you've started.
I think the issue might stem more from the fact that, at low levels, what makes fighters effective is pretty obvious. It's very easy to see how Power attack helps at levels 1-3. Weapon focus and combat reflexes also have clear usefulness. You want more of a dex-based build? Easy: Dodge and Combat Expertise. Etc.
As you get into more advanced levels, you have so many more options. Each of those "obvious" feats at your first three-four levels opens up one or more feat trees. Once you take Power Attack, you have to decide if you want to be a cleave-monster or go the overrun/bull rush route. After Dodge, do you want to go down the Mobility-Spring...
I consider Lunge to be a feat tax at sixth level myself. If you look at how much damage you lose by missing even one chance to full-attack, Lunge starts to look really appealing because it increases the number of times per combat that a 5-foot step is sufficient to position yourself for a full attack.
To me the Barbarian is a supplement to the Fighter, not a replacement. They lack ranged capacity and are not defensively sound. Having hit points is meaningless without AC or another form of mitigation because they evaporate after a single full-attack. They rely on sheer offense to carry them through encounters, and it does, but it's really inefficient (IMO) because it turns them into resource sinks for the whole party.
Barbarians can pick up a bow just like anybody else. And barbarians have amazing defenses, and because they have great offense with relatively little effort, they can pick defensive options quite freely in my experience. I think you aren't giving barbarians their due.
Barbarians can pick up a bow just like anybody else. And barbarians have amazing defenses, and because they have great offense with relatively little effort, they can pick defensive options quite freely in my experience. I think you aren't giving barbarians their due.
To me the Barbarian is a supplement to the Fighter, not a replacement. They lack ranged capacity and are not defensively sound. Having hit points is meaningless without AC or another form of mitigation because they evaporate after a single full-attack. They rely on sheer offense to carry them through encounters, and it does, but it's really inefficient (IMO) because it turns them into resource sinks for the whole party.
They lack incentive to invest in dexterity, lack the feats to invest in improving their ranged attacks (or have to choose between that and defensive capabilities) and possess nothing comparable to weapon training that allows Fighters to improve their ranged damage and accuracy without committing to it, by picking secondary weapon groups.
I've seen 12th level Barbarians with 32 strength while raging, they have a ton of HP and hit like a train. Filled with contact explosives. My opinion still stands.
Multiple weak enemies are like kryptonite to them because they lack the AC that would otherwise trivialize the attacks of low level enemies. Likewise if for any reason whatsoever (bad luck, can't reach the target, etc.) their enemies are still standing after 2 rounds, in my experience, they're screwed, because at that point offense as defense has already failed.
They are effective, they just aren't efficient in my opinion. They have a ton of HP, and it's almost always down to nothing by the end of an encounter, thereby requiring a fortune in healing resources.
An average fighter taking weapon focus/greater and weapon spec/greater will hit more often and deal more damage per hit than an barbarian. Assuming the same weapon and same starting str. The barbarian at 12 will gain +3 to hit same as the fighter (greater weapon focus and two weapon trainings) assuming a 2 handed weapon the barbarian gains either 4 or 5 damage while raging, the fighter gains 6 damage (weapon spec +2 greater +2 and weapon training +2). This is assuming that the barbarian took weapon focus as one of his feats which is not part of most barbarian builds.
This does not take into account a lot of other factors as there are ways to improve both characters beyond the damage done with a single swing.
Basically, I'm saying that Fighter is about playing Moneyball. Remember that movie? I hate baseball, but that was a cool movie.
To me the Barbarian is a supplement to the Fighter, not a replacement. They lack ranged capacity and are not defensively sound. Having hit points is meaningless without AC or another form of mitigation because they evaporate after a single full-attack. They rely on sheer offense to carry them through encounters, and it does, but it's really inefficient (IMO) because it turns them into resource sinks for the whole party.
Not quite true. Barbarian can tank up easily. But offense suffers.
Not quite true. Barbarian can tank up easily. But offense suffers.
To me the Barbarian is a supplement to the Fighter, not a replacement. They lack ranged capacity and are not defensively sound. Having hit points is meaningless without AC or another form of mitigation because they evaporate after a single full-attack. They rely on sheer offense to carry them through encounters, and it does, but it's really inefficient (IMO) because it turns them into resource sinks for the whole party.
Usually people aren't willing to let offense suffer. and almost never with a Barbarian.
Barbarians are easily hittable, compared to fighters, but with archetypes, they can have nasty amounts of Damage Reduction, awesome saving throws, the amazing Pounce, and they already have so many rage rounds they can afford to rage during every significant encounter. in fact, with a 1 level dip into monk, they can charge over difficult terrain.
Barbarians are easily hittable, compared to fighters, but with archetypes, they can have nasty amounts of Damage Reduction, awesome saving throws, the amazing Pounce, and they already have so many rage rounds they can afford to rage during every significant encounter. in fact, with a 1 level dip into monk, they can charge over difficult terrain.
Again, I'm not arguing that that Barbarian isn't effective. I know better than that. But DR is not enough to substitute for a Real armour class, and you never see archer Barbarians, and I think they are simply not terribly efficient. They are heal sinks, and need to use an expendable resource to match a fighters offensive numbers, and even then using that resource comes with a number of penalties (AC penalty, not being allowed to use tactics beyond HULK SMASH, and so on).
So can anyone refute my arguments? Apparently my opinions on this are not commonly accepted on these boards, yet no one has bothered to actually argue my points. Is it because I'm right but my way is "boring"? Is it because (to borrow a 4E-ism) I think of Fighters as Strikers, and others think of them as Defenders?
Or is there another reason?
I want people to argue with me so that I can figure out if I'm right.
OK, here are some arguments that other people might have used:
A few pluses to hit and AC is pathetic compared to Smite Evil plus Lay on Hands as a swift action.
Other classes get similar bonuses to weapon training; Instant Enemy, rage powers, mutagens, bardic performance...
At high levels, a melee character with good strength is likely to hit most of the time anyway. A little bit of weapon training doesn't make a significant difference.
The occasional +1 here and there is no match for a wizard who can fly, teleport and stop time.
Since no-one ever fights for more than six rounds a day, the fighter's 'unlimited' abilities give him no real advantage.
High armour class is useless against the most dangerous types of enemies. (Monsters with +43 to hit, casters, draining touch attackers...) Bad saving throws will kill you.
While I agree with the problem of casters vs martials having a major difference in power level (fighters fight over inches, casters fight at continental distances ect) I have to say when I play a caster I prefer to have a fighter in the party. It's much more efficient to have a guy who is already martially powerful that I can buff to be a combat god. A well built and equipped fighter with caster support can 1 round out of zone (higher than APL+4)encounters.
Sorry guys, reading comprehension fail. Not trying to be mean, just read the post again and see if you can figure out what the topic is.
It amazes me that people still spout misinformed stuff like AC not mattering when the enemy has a +43 bonus... On his first attack. You know iteratives? Well, those are made at a lower bonus.
I already explained why even small bonuses are valuable at high level.
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OK, here are some arguments that other people might have used:
A few pluses to hit and AC is pathetic compared to Smite Evil plus Lay on Hands as a swift action.
Other classes get similar bonuses to weapon training; Instant Enemy, rage powers, mutagens, bardic performance...
At high levels, a melee character with good strength is likely to hit most of the time anyway. A little bit of weapon training doesn't make a significant difference.
The occasional +1 here and there is no match for a wizard who can fly, teleport and stop time.
Since no-one ever fights for more than six rounds a day, the fighter's 'unlimited' abilities give him no real advantage.
High armour class is useless against the most dangerous types of enemies. (Monsters with +43 to hit, casters, draining touch attackers...) Bad saving throws will kill you.
Nobody ever fights for more than six rounds a day?
Really?
I've seen battles rage for over 20. Single battles, when we fought 3 or 4.
Oh...and I've played fighters that have killed wizards.
HEre's the problem.
1) the Fighter doesn't get a +5 Bonus over everyone. The barb gets +4/+4 from his +8 Str boost, and might have Wpn Focus. So, you're on par. If you've got GWF, you're at +1 to hit. If you start shouting Gloves of Dueling, i start shouting Furious+Courageous weapon and you lose.
2) The barb is not weapon centered. Sure, he's +2 dmg more with a 2h'er. But he can pick up a longsword and not suffer, and he can use a shield if he want to. That longsword can also be used in two hands.
3) The barb has access to Guarded Stance and NAt Armor bonuses through rage powers, if he wants them. He'll take -2 for rage at level 20,and then +12? AC for those bonuses, completely outclassing the fighter.
4) The fighter's dex to AC only matters if you have the Dex to make use of it. At level 20, a suit of celestial mail works for a 26 Dex. Mithral BP, a 21. The fighter's armor advantage is +1-2 pts...completely overwhelmed by Rage Powers.
The fighter's move in armor is gained at level 1 by dwarves, by anyone in mithral BP or lighter armor...which is what they'll wear if they want to max dex, anyways.
And the barb still moves faster. So does a ranger with Longstrider, or a Paladin on a phantom steed..
Consistent damage is NICE. Spike damage, especially reusable spike damage, tends to be better. The fighter gets his +8/+10 against the demon BBEG, great, with his best specialized weapon and gloves. The ranger gets +10/+10, with any weapon and Instant Enemy. The paladin is rocking +7/+20 with any weapon,and can give it away to the rest of the party. The barb is rocking +8/+8(+11 2h) with any weapon with Courageous and Furious on it, as long as his rage holds out...which is generally more then long enough.
On a battlefield where the fighting can last for hours? Yeah, fighter wins.
In adventuring fights where short but furious is the rule? Not so much.
==Aelryinth
I can show the way armor progresses as characters level, but that doesn't take into account Dex bonuses or class powers.
The barb has the absolute best AC advancement from class powers over levels. Those stacking Guarded Stance and Nat AC bonuses combined are impressive, if he takes both.
And there's no reason for a barb to NOT have a shield ready for the extra AC if he wants it.
===Aelryinth
HEre's the problem.
1) the Fighter doesn't get a +5 Bonus over everyone. The barb gets +4/+4 from his +8 Str boost, and might have Wpn Focus. So, you're on par. If you've got GWF, you're at +1 to hit. If you start shouting Gloves of Dueling, i start shouting Furious+Courageous weapon and you lose.
2) The barb is not weapon centered. Sure, he's +2 dmg more with a 2h'er. But he can pick up a longsword and not suffer, and he can use a shield if he want to. That longsword can also be used in two hands.
3) The barb has access to Guarded Stance and NAt Armor bonuses through rage powers, if he wants them. He'll take -2 for rage at level 20,and then +12? AC for those bonuses, completely outclassing the fighter.
4) The fighter's dex to AC only matters if you have the Dex to make use of it. At level 20, a suit of celestial mail works for a 26 Dex. Mithral BP, a 21. The fighter's armor advantage is +1-2 pts...completely overwhelmed by Rage Powers.
The fighter's move in armor is gained at level 1 by dwarves, by anyone in mithral BP or lighter armor...which is what they'll wear if they want to max dex, anyways.
And the barb still moves faster. So does a ranger with Longstrider, or a Paladin on a phantom steed..Consistent damage is NICE. Spike damage, especially reusable spike damage, tends to be better. The fighter gets his +8/+10 against the demon BBEG, great, with his best specialized weapon and gloves. The ranger gets +10/+10, with any weapon and Instant Enemy. The paladin is rocking +7/+20 with any weapon,and can give it away to the rest of the party. The barb is rocking +8/+8(+11 2h) with any weapon with Courageous and Furious on it, as long as his rage holds out...which is generally more then long enough.
On a battlefield where the fighting can last for hours? Yeah, fighter wins.
In adventuring fights where short but furious is the rule? Not so much.
==Aelryinth
1, Dwarves don't get fighter's move in armour at first because the have a 20 ft movement speed.
2, I'm not really saying anything about Fighters other than they are about as good as any other class in combat.
3, This thread is more about whether fighters have any feats they are better off taking than focus/specialization, and the nature of "always on +1 fiddly bits" in general.
1, Dwarves don't get fighter's move in armour at first because the have a 20 ft movement speed.2, I'm not really saying anything about Fighters other than they are about as good as any other class in combat.
3, This thread is more about whether fighters have any feats they are better off taking than focus/specialization, and the nature of "always on +1 fiddly bits" in general.
1) uh, what? What does being a fighter have to do with your natural speed? Are you trying to tell me that halflings, who also have a 20 speed, are not slowed down by armor, because they have move 20?
Dwarves are not slowed down in heavy armor, regardless if they are fighters or not, right from level 1. Gnomes are, and halflings are, unless they are higher level fighters. All have base 20 move.
2) Nobody is saying Fighters have a problem in DPR and AC. It's the defenses, utility and out of combat that's the problem.
3) Oh. Well, that's a flavor issue. They tend to lag the DPR without those feats, which is bad, as they are too expensive for what they do (weapon f/s should be 1 feat, for a fighter). Three extra feats is a lot to burn.
The problem is, there's no feat that comes close to the power of Extra Rage Power for what they can do for a fighter.
==Aelryinth
1) uh, what? What does being a fighter have to do with your natural speed? Are you trying to tell me that halflings, who also have a 20 speed, are not slowed down by armor, because they have move 20?
Dwarves are not slowed down in heavy armor, regardless if they are fighters or not, right from level 1. Gnomes are, and halflings are, unless they are higher level fighters. All have base 20 move.
The point is that every medium sized race other than dwarves can retain 30 ft speed in heavier armors. Dwarves may not be slowed by armor, but they're still slowed by their own racial statistics.
The point is that every medium sized race other than dwarves can retain 30 ft speed in heavier armors. Dwarves may not be slowed by armor, but they're still slowed by their own racial statistics.1) uh, what? What does being a fighter have to do with your natural speed? Are you trying to tell me that halflings, who also have a 20 speed, are not slowed down by armor, because they have move 20?
Dwarves are not slowed down in heavy armor, regardless if they are fighters or not, right from level 1. Gnomes are, and halflings are, unless they are higher level fighters. All have base 20 move.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with being a fighter.
Fighters don't have a 'speed'. Races have speeds. If you are a dwarf, fighter armor mastery is wasted...it's a level 1 racial benefit.
If you are wearing mithril medium armor, armor mastery is a wasted benefit.
==Aelryinth
Let's see what a PF fighter should have at level 20.
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (+1 Insight)
+5 Mithral Plate, +14 Armor. Ac 25.
24 Dex (+7 AC), which maxes out his Fighter Armor Training. Celestial Plate would be 28 Dex, but starting with a 13 Dex, +6 Enhance and +5 Book is a 24. Ac 32
Nat Armor +5 AC 37
Ring/Prot+5. Ac 42
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 luck). Ac 43.
Heavy Shield +5. Ac 50. If Defender +5 Uber Shield, AC 55.
And there's feats to supplement that, but this is just base gear.
==Aelryinth
Static benefits are simple, straightforward, and always on. Yes, they're small, but I can write themdownon my character sheet andnot have to worry about them. This has benefits in that I can then use my limited amount of attention to, say,focus onthe situation, my allies, andother stuff,instead of keeping my own feats from tripping over each other.