that it need not even be a dip class (though it still won't stand up to a well built paladin or fighters damage with a bow)
I would use it as a dip class anyhow, and use Fighter for the rest of the progression. I like to stereotype my Paladins as sword/board tanks only, only grabbing a bow in case of flyers, but never investing feats into it.
Nah, usually when someone goes Pally, everyone else says "we have the tank!" and picks something other than front lines (rogue, cleric and wizard in your average party), so if the Pally goes ranged, the whole party becomes weak when it comes to melee. I'd rather that 5th person be the rounding out member. Rangers and Fighters make the better ranged masters anyway. Its one reason why RANGE is in RANGEr. Still think they should be put on the weapon spec/greater focus/greater spec though.
But I do agree that Zen Archer works for Fighter. (Had to make it about monks in the end, didn't want to derail.)
Why not take the monkey style?
You have slightly different parties than I generally have though, so have fun with the zen archer
My monk currently is a Duelist type, Mobility, Snapping Turtle Style, Crane Style, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, things like that. Only taking it 6 levels in Monk, 4 level Free Hand Fighter, then Duelist maxed.
I was going to do an archer type, but the AC I have on this monk is retarded, so I quasi-tank, and bully up the enemy mages since my 20 DEX and Evasion make AoE spells a nightmare. My Touch AC is also no joke, so unless someone catches me flat footed, its a safe bet that I'll keep my HP around a while.
Only problem is those damn evil cleric and their Channel Negative Energy...
Oh that's sweet. I think my AC at level 5 is currently hovering in the mid 30s, think up to 38 against AoO. His damage per hit is abysmal and will remain so until I can get Improved Critical on his Wakizashi and proceed to 15-20 everything. Still a shame Katana isn't Weapon Finesse-able. Wanted as close a representation of Himura Kenshin as possible. Its close, but I just couldn't figure out a way to weave Improved Uncanny Dodge into his build without losing Duelist levels or skipping out on both Monk and Fighter levels/feats. The ability to not be flanked is not critical, but definitely character defining.
From reading the post above, and what I've gleamed from other posts: Monk's main weak point is its BAB, secondary is weapon choices.
Those are the results of the monk's other issues, not the cause. Full BAB does NOT solve the monk's issues, that's a red herring. The REAL problems the monk has are:
1) MADness. The monk needs more decent scores than any other class to function properly. He needs decent scores in the physical stats, plus Wisdom, and Intelligence too if he wants to be good at maneuvers. To hit on a par with other combat classes he NEEDS either dexterity or strength maxed out, while he needs Wisdom for his special abilities. Other classes generally need only two or three good scores, one of them maxed out.
2) Enhancement. The monk's primary weapon is meant to be the unarmed strike, but it struggles because the enhancement available is awful. The AoMF is all there is, and it's expensive. In addition to the cost it has a +5 cap on properties plus enhancements.
3) Bypassing DR. Paizo have improved this a little, but not enough really, considering that the monk's damage output is not exactly stellar enough to overcome DR it cannot bypass. At high level, where DR/alignment is often encountered, the monk is really up the creek. Factor #2 means if he needs any properties, bypassing DR/alignment by enhancement won't happen, and he otherwise only bypasses DR/lawful which is pretty rare.
Net effect of 1 & 2 is to reduce the monk's attack modifier below that of the other martial classes (and would even if the monk had full BAB). So you hit less often, for less damage, and struggle to get through DR.
I've posted up my own play-test details for my own ideas of a fix here if you want to take a gander. I've stuck to small changes rather than large ones, because that's what Paizo have said they will consider.
Equipment is part of the game, and the game assumes you to have certain gear at certain levels. Leaving it to the DM is a recipe for disaster if you have a specialist-dependent character and the DM doesn't believe in tailoring treasure encounters or magic shops. Seen how rare amulets of mighty fists are?This runs on the assumption that GMs A: are fair about their gear and B: care enough to allow you to find the items.
One reason I find many casters take Crafting feats is to ensure the party has what the party needs. Even if they don't, the DM being a douche is something you can solve only one way: not play with that DM.
This however just jacks up the problems the monk has, as he is dependent on one rare item of kit to be offensively effective at higher levels: the amulet of mighty fists. A fighter specialising in one weapon can pick up a magic weapon of another type and at least use it...but monk weapons are rare as well, so whichever way you look at it, the monk is up the sewage pipe with no visible means of propulsion if the DM plays this way.
Why not take the monkey style?
Because Monkey Style is pretty terrible for anything that doesn't involve making someone try to laugh at you.
|
Why not take the monkey style?Because Monkey Style is pretty terrible for anything that doesn't involve making someone try to laugh at you.
Unless you read the prone rules and realize you get a +4 to AC against ranged while prone, and with it take no penalty in melee, in addition to the nice bonus to acrobatics.
It isn't tremendous, but it can be quite useful in the right build.
I actually had a literal Drunken Master (ala Jackie Chan) build centered around Monkey/Panther/Snake at one point but I eventually just decided it wasn't worth it.
It might be useful in some situations, but not as much as pretty much any other style except Kirin (you're never going to have the Int to make use of it).
|
|
I actually had a literal Drunken Master (ala Jackie Chan) build centered around Monkey/Panther/Snake at one point but I eventually just decided it wasn't worth it.
It might be useful in some situations, but not as much as pretty much any other style except Kirin (you're never going to have the Int to make use of it).
I personally think Tiger is the best, but I can see taking monkey for certain concepts.
I can see why Tiger would be someone's favorite, but my heart will always belong to Snake.
It's like everything about it is both thematically PERFECT for a Monk (Sensing where they're going to strike, avoiding, then retaliating) and is great mechanically as well.
It's like everything about it is both thematically PERFECT for a Monk (Sensing where they're going to strike, avoiding, then retaliating) and is great mechanically as well.
Still haven't gotten a ruling on Snake + Riposte/Crane Riposte on whether you net two AoO, but I do like snake.
MADness. The monk needs more decent scores than any other class to function properly. He needs decent scores in the physical stats, plus Wisdom, and Intelligence too if he wants to be good at maneuvers. To hit on a par with other combat classes he NEEDS either dexterity or strength maxed out, while he needs Wisdom for his special abilities. Other classes generally need only two or three good scores.
Monk is MAD, yes, but I don't believe it to be the extent everyone thinks it should be. Monk can completely ignore INT altogether and won't be losing much of anything except skill points, unless he plans on going into something like Duelist. For reference, having a 13, IMO, is a crap stat. I don't play PFS, always paper, usually with 4d6 stats reroll 1's, so having average stats of 14+ isn't uncommon.
WIS and DEX, yes, you do need those high. My current monk has 20 DEX and 18 WIS. It sets your Stunning Fist DC, it boosts your AC, cranks your saving throws, etc. Max one, and get the other as high as you can.
I ignore CON, even if others don't. The way I play my Monk they rarely come in contact with Fortitude saves, and since I usually take Fighter along with Monk levels, Fort isn't much of an issue anyway. The extra HP, in my defensive builds, are usually a moot point.
Fk CHA.
Which leaves us with STR. STR is great, but I treat my Monk like I treat my Rogues. If I have another decent stat, it goes into STR, but if I don't, I don't sweat it. There are many ways to beef STR and STR based attributes, from Bull Strength spell to the basic level 1 Enlarge Person to a ton of magical items.
I agree that Monk has issues, MAD is a minor one. I can argue MAD for most classes, if only for the sake of "boost all things!" I play all my classes; monks, arcane and divine spellcasters, Fighters, Pallys etc, to specifics. I hate generalists with a passion. Generalists are very MAD because people expect them to be above average at everything, and I believe no class anywhere ever should be that way. Getting good at one thing is easy, getting better should involve a decrease elsewhere, and getting better at multiple things should be near impossible, requiring lots of work (level 21+) and much cash. Fortunately, I don't see many class build that are the best at everything they do, and I hope it stays that way. Unfortunately, some classes have been built from development to reality to be above average or better at everything, becoming master of several aspects, which degrades every class that can't into nearly non-playable waste... like Monks.
But I said nearly. Every class can be played, and it'll take some ingenuity, but Monks aren't completely out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just out of curiosity Kyaa, how are you getting your AC into the mid-30's at level 5? (new to pathfinder here, so just trying to see if I'm missing something, etc.)
I can see why Tiger would be someone's favorite, but my heart will always belong to Snake.
It's like everything about it is both thematically PERFECT for a Monk (Sensing where they're going to strike, avoiding, then retaliating) and is great mechanically as well.
Plus you stab people. With you hand. There is a reason why is a similar feat, hamatulatsu, for a religious group in Cheliax. Works well with the hamatula strike too, since that lets you grapple on a successful hit with a piercing weapon. BY IMPALING THEM WITH YOU ARM. MWHAHAHAHAHA...what? LE is a perfectly legitimate alignment for a monk...
As for whether snake fang would activate on a hit you blocked with crane wing... I would say no. A missed attack and a blocked one seem to be different rules-wise, but that is no real loss. This is mostly because crane wing used on someone full attacking you is like reducing their BAB by 5 (assuming their are no TWF or natural attacks) You will have plenty of opportunities to retaliate from a missed hit. If you also take duelist, then it is almost impossible for a single opponent to ever hit you without some trick up their sleeve, and you will likely get most of your hits in off of your turn.
Just out of curiosity Kyaa, how are you getting your AC into the mid-30's at level 5? (new to pathfinder here, so just trying to see if I'm missing something, etc.)
DEX 20 +5
WIS 18 +4Snapping Turtle Style +1
Acrobatics 3 ranks +3/+6 (defensive/total defense)
Crane Style +4/+7 (defensive/total defense)
Combat Expertise +2
Mage Armor +4 (my sorc is awesome)
Dodge +1
Mobility +4 (AoO)
Now, Combat Expertise and Total Defense doesn't stack, (I think I added that in on accident when I got my other value) so Defensive Combat Expertise is +6, where Total Defense is +7 (not 9), eventually Fighting Defensively with Combat Expertise will outmatch Total Defense, which is where I want it to be.
Total AC Fighting Defensive: 32 (ok, so "mid" was a little stretch)
I don't have Ki Points yet, get those next level since I'm 3 Monk 2 Free Hand Fighter atm. Those will next me another 4 Dodge Bonus when I need em. Also, I have an Amulet of Natural Armor +1. Don't have any Ring of Protection, Bracer's of Armor, stat enhancing items, or the like, so it will be higher eventually. I picked up a masterwork Wakizashi, which will eventually be enchanted with Defending or Speed, haven't decided yet. Depends on what my GM throws at us.
If you also take duelist, then it is almost impossible for a single opponent to ever hit you without some trick up their sleeve, and you will likely get most of your hits in off of your turn.
This is, in a nut-shell, the complete premise for my current build.
Which is why many people add in snake style. Touch AC is fantastic with that feat. Can you 1/2 Bab counter my sense motive bonus? Admittedly, a magus might be able to pull it off though, since they can use spell strike and possibly overload my defenses with spell combat.
Also, sorry if I missed a previous mention of that Kyaaadaa, there's about three monk threads running right now and I am a poor multitasker.
like I said it didnt' matter. If he touched me back it went off. Touch spells go off even if you don't intend them to as soon as anything touches you. accidentally bumped a commoner in a market place once :P no one could prove anything happened.
1.) Source?
2.) Snake Style lets you dodge, not deflect the move (that's Crane style) so the point is moot.
3. But seriously, source? I've heard they "discharge" if touching any object, but I've never heard they discharge if anyone touches YOU. Pretty sure touch spells were not intended to be defensive spells you could hold and then do damage to anyone who hit you.
I could see the crane wing having a discharge, since you are grabbing the guy's arm barehanded, but the duelist parry is a bit more iffy. If you take this idea that it can travel through the blade, and combine it with the "you can't punch me or it discharges" then just holding a touch spell is like a damaging barrier against anyone attacking you. I think this might be some confusion over the word "touch," or rather which body parts. It probably refers to your hands, which are the first part of your body to touch most things.
But still, as Rynjin pointed out, it is mostly moot since snake style is about dodging. Heck, half the reason touch spells exist is so that casters can actually hit anything with the spells. Once faced against an actual AC, it crumbles pitifully. But even if it did act like a defensive spell, that is why we carry daggers and maybe shirken. To get nice mid ranged options. What does you 1d6 per level hp think of that?
If YOU touch anyone.
Not "If anyone touches you". A semantic difference but I think we were already arguing semantics when we started talking about "Touch spells no longer need attack rolls, just wait for someone to attack you and you bypass all types of AC for no save damage".
The difference is quite clear.
If I touch you that does not mean you are touching me.
It's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. It just has to be not stupid. Being able to just ignore the fact that you have to hit touch AC to use a touch spell is stupid.
Of course, I've never interpreted touch spells as some kind of full body aura either.
Lol I had a friend who tried that on me once. I built a shocking grasp sorcerer and pointed out that it didn't matter if I touched him or not. If he touched me it counted as me inadvertently touching someone and so the spell still went off. So if he deflected it went off and if he punched me it went off and if I touched him it went off :P
That is the iffy bit here. If he punched you in the gut, you would pretty much have to make a consorted effort to touch him with your charged hand, which would be a touch attack. Unless he activated an attack of opportunity while attacking (and he is a monk, so his unarmed strikes don't), I don't think you could actually hit him with it on his turn.
And we can't simply go off of your GM's decision that you twisted to spite both him and a fellow player. I can somewhat see what your GM was going for, but that was more of a surprise action for all involved. In a combat situation, the duelist would be aware of what you are doing and probably try to avoid that arm. So I'll grant the crane wing, and maybe even parry, but you cannot just avoid attack rolls entirely.
You are twisting a lot of rules and using rather broad definitions of words just to make yourself right. Technically, you could never use a mount while using touch attacks if that was right. Heck, you might discharge it at anytime if you are not flying since your feet are touching the ground. Generally, I would imagine touch attacks are limited to the hands. Avoid the hands, and then you avoid the attack. With the bumping incident, it could be easily said the commoner bumped into your arm. If they meant for it to just turn you into a magical explosive, then the rules would point more generally towards that. There are probably a dozen spells that do specifically that which are completely separate from shocking grasp.
We are just seeing the general problems your interpretation raise. That has actual valid ground. I am not sure I like your appeal to pathos with your story. If you really feel that you cannot talk to people without picking a fight, then just take some time off and cool down. Watch a silly movie or read a book. I don't think bringing other people down will help too much. Anger only leads to more anger, so it will not help your mood.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am fairly certain it is due to Metonymy (or was it Synecdoche?) Either way, touch here typically refers to the part humans use the most for touching. Which sounds horrible now that I write it after that image you put into my head. I cannot get this sound out of my head: *Bow chika wow wow*
MADness. The monk needs more decent scores than any other class to function properly. He needs decent scores in the physical stats, plus Wisdom, and Intelligence too if he wants to be good at maneuvers. To hit on a par with other combat classes he NEEDS either dexterity or strength maxed out, while he needs Wisdom for his special abilities. Other classes generally need only two or three good scores.Monk is MAD, yes, but I don't believe it to be the extent everyone thinks it should be. Monk can completely ignore INT altogether and won't be losing much of anything except skill points, unless he plans on going into something like Duelist. For reference, having a 13, IMO, is a crap stat. I don't play PFS, always paper, usually with 4d6 stats reroll 1's, so having average stats of 14+ isn't uncommon.
You can't ignore INT if you want good maneuvers, as you don't get the Greater maneuver feats without Combat Expertise.
Also, the "standard" is 20 point buy, not rolled stats. Rolled stats I got a great monk last time round, but it doesn't change the fact that PB is the way most groups go.
WIS and DEX, yes, you do need those high. My current monk has 20 DEX and 18 WIS. It sets your Stunning Fist DC, it boosts your AC, cranks your saving throws, etc. Max one, and get the other as high as you can.
I agree, but that's two high stats you need, and in point buy two high stats leaves you with nothing elsewhere.
I ignore CON, even if others don't. The way I play my Monk they rarely come in contact with Fortitude saves, and since I usually take Fighter along with Monk levels, Fort isn't much of an issue anyway. The extra HP, in my defensive builds, are usually a moot point.
I look at the monk stand alone - because if the class cannot stand alone, there's something wrong. That said Con usually gets dropped in my builds, usually because I have no points left. Given AC comparable to a fighter, you are likely to get hit as often sometimes, so half the hit points is a problem.
Fk CHA.
Which leaves us with STR. STR is great, but I treat my Monk like I treat my Rogues. If I have another decent stat, it goes into STR, but if I don't, I don't sweat it. There are many ways to beef STR and STR based attributes, from Bull Strength spell to the basic level 1 Enlarge Person to a ton of magical items.
My usual philosophy, but then you have to pay the feat-tax or suck. Even then, you still suck at damage until you can get an agile AoMF. With less DR bypass at higher levels, lower damage is a BIG problem.
The biggest problem with the monk is you have to trade off on stats between AC and offence where other combat classes get both. Like it or not, the monk is a combat class ('cos he sure ain't a caster, healer, or skills monkey). His only way of influencing the course of a conflict is to fight things.
I agree that Monk has issues, MAD is a minor one. I can argue MAD for most...
You can argue it, but not with as much justification. Every other class needs one good stat, and at most two moderate ones, except the paladin who needs one good and one better-than-moderate stat (but for whom the rest don't matter at all). The monk needs two good stats (wisdom plus hitting stat) and at least two moderate ones (the other physical stats plus intelligence if they want maneuvers).
MAD is a much bigger problem when you use point buy than when you dice for stats and get lucky.
like I said it didnt' matter. If he touched me back it went off. Touch spells go off even if you don't intend them to as soon as anything touches you. accidentally bumped a commoner in a market place once :P no one could prove anything happened.
Rubbish, touch spells discharge when YOU touch someone else, not when they touch you, or when things accidentally bump into you. Otherwise with this interpretation every single touch spell goes off immediately through your feet. What? You don't agree with me? Then how are you standing if you are not touching the ground?
Ah, seen it now...yeah, you play with that DM why, exactly?
Read the following post :P On the bright side it got us an interview with the king. On the downside, it landed us in the dungeons :P
Depends on what kind of dungeons you are talking about. *Bow chika wow wow*
I try not to completely dump CHA...unless I am making a character with a dark and troubled past (is there really any other kind?) While I agree that a class should be able to stand on its own, dips for nice little proficiencies are somewhat excusable. A MoMS has not reason to bother going with a high WIS and no armor when you think about it, since they will likely get better AC from armor and they lost the main draw for the style: flurry of blows.
EDIT: ...ok, that image needs an intimidation check everytime he uses a spell. Does his floating disk also have the phrase "Free Candy" printed on it?
But that aside there's nothing broad about using the word touching as touching.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Rubbish, touch spells discharge when YOU touch someone else, not when they touch you, or when things accidentally bump into you. Otherwise with this interpretation every single touch spell goes off immediately through your feet. What? You don't agree with me? Then how are you standing if you are not touching the ground?
This is correct. All touch spells are spell effects held, and released only by a conscious effort on the spellcaster to deliver the effect. Now, you can have a monk/wizard who can deliver spells AND punch in the same round, but since casting is a standard action (barring Quicken Spell) and attacking is a standard action, you would normally have to use two rounds to perform this trick, unless you manage to have something tasty with party members like Broken Wing Gambit and take AoO every turn.
Also to note on the Duelist Parry/Riposte: Touch spells cannot be focused through weapons unless A: the weapon specifies that it is a channel (I know some exist in 3.5, not sure about Pathfinder) or you have a class ability that allows for such. (Again, 3.5, would have to consult rulebooks for PF.) So Parrying will not release a touch spell, and attacking with a weapon will not release a touch spell.
Also, the "standard" is 20 point buy, not rolled stats.
I thank every god in existence that I've never played the 20 point buy system. It makes truly weak characters in comparison to other methods, considering you have to dump 17/20 to get a single 18 stat, then you get 3 11's, or maybe an 11 and a 12 and you're done. For a MAD class, best to hope for is two 15s, a 14 and an 11. No +3 modifiers? Open a flower shop, you're no hero. I could see classes with two stats going two 16's, but then the rest is garbage. If it doesn't have a +2 or higher, write it off. I'd end up taking a nasty ECL race to make up for all that weakness.
Give me my 4d6 any day, or the system we used. 80 points, 1 for 1 buy, starting at 0. No score under 8, no score over 18 prior to racial bonuses. At least this way you can get decent stats.