I'd suggest still taking a gander at Master of Many Styles if you're gonna be rollin' with Panther/Boar. You said you're fine with not being a massive damage dealer, and the ability to use both at once (upping to 3 at 8th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th) can be quite helpful. You can snag the Two Weapon Fighting Feats and effectively "Buy back" Flurry if you have a high enough Dex, if you wanted to focus on a shower of attacks instead of less big ones. Dragon Style can even make your unarmed strike count as a weapon that grants 1.5x Str for Power Attack.
This should be in advice not general discussion. I'll flag it for a move for you (it would actually be a good thing as you'll probably get more help their).
I'd also suggest Crane Style. If you're going to take Dodge, you might as well take a -1 penalty to all attacks in able to get +4 AC and the ability to deflect 1 melee attack around, AND counterattack after deflecting.
I would suggest you look at the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmon k-s-guide-to-monks as it lays out what abilities and feats synergize best with the monk. I don't think it was updated since the newer ultimate guides have come out, but it will certainly tell you what kind of feats from those books to look for.
Looking at your monk build, except when using True Strike he's going to really struggle hitting things with any great frequency. He's relying on strength bonus of +2 where other combat characters will be starting at +3 to +5 and rising from there. Not only will his damage output be awful, his attacks will be on the same par as an unbuffed caster, and that's not a good thing.
You have pumped Wisdom as your best stat, and that's the issue: There is a guided weapon property, or if you dip a level of cleric the Guided Attack feat (you need Channel Smite as a pre-req) which will both make this work, but without them you are up the sewage outlet with no visible form of propulsion.
If you swap around and make Dexterity you to stat, then Weapon Finesse will allow you to perform very adequately without sacrificing AC. If you want damage later (and you will, stunning fist only works if you damage the target and there are plenty of DR/alignment foes whose DR you can't bypass) then you can pick up the agile weapon property. Or you could sacrifice some AC and put your top stat into strength.
If you are not going Master of Many Styles, then pick one style and stick with it. You have no maneuvers there and I would really recommend some at low level, or fighting some of the humanoid foes you will run into later.
Which style you should follow...
Well, I find Crane and Snake are my favourites: Crane Style is awesome when you are rooted to the spot, you end up with a stellar AC and little to worry about from a single attacker. Panther style is great if you have a lot of foes and are on the move. Snake Style is great all-round - the Snake Sidewind feat isn't awesome (though it's advantageous if you go with the Improved Trip maneuver), but Snake Fang is a great compromise between Panther and Crane, and well worth the investment.
Plan your build over 14-16 levels, because in a typical AP you won't get to 20. Most don't go above 14th level.
Absolutely fantastic Advice Dab! Thank you so so much for opening my mind a little more to Monks :)
The True Strike is good, but what you will want is the Barkskin to get your AC up, as your neck slot will be needed for an amulet of mighty fists.
The qinggong is good, but on the whole playing a monk will really keep you on your toes. It is, sadly, an underpowered class (even the devs have said so, and are still looking at ways to improve it), although it has awesome flavour. But if you play it right you can do OK, and at least you have the option of abilities that synergise with the QG monk.
Master of Many Styles I have found is less awesome than it looks as you are giving up flurry-of-blows to get styles that rely on hitting a lot (and you now have just 3/4 BAB in addition to the monk's MAD problems). Really, the regular monk should have had it's style abilities, and as it is the MoMS is basically a dip class for non-monks to get style feats better than the monk can.
A Monk can have comparable AC to a fighter right from the outset, if he doesn't skimp dex and wis. You have to choose items carefully, though:
Bracers of defence (at least once you can get better than provided by mage armour) - armour bonus
Ring of Protection - deflection bonus
Ioun Stone - insight bonus
Belt of Dexterity - enhances dexterity, provides dex bonus
Headband of Wisdom - enhances wisdom, provides wis bonus
Barkskin ability - natural armour
Monk's robe - boosts monk's AC bonus
Now the golden rule is: like bonuses do not stack (except for dodge and untyped bonuses). Mage armour is an armour bonus, so it does not stack with armour (you don't wear any) or bracers of defence (which you will want). Natural armour will stack with armour, so your barkskin stacks with mage armour/bracers of defence.
Here's an example monk at 13th level:
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease, poison; SR 23
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +19/+14 (2d6+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 26, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling, +23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +24 (+40 jump, +37 to jump), Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21 (only -1/20' while using a spyglass, instead of -1/10'), Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost when using a Mapmaker's Kit as you travel, +7 to navigate in the wilderness), Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ abundant step, ac bonus +8, diamond body, fast movement (+40'), high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, monk vows (vow of truth [+2 ki]), purity of body, slow fall 60', stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken, stagger), unarmed strike (2d6), wholeness of body
Combat Gear Oil of bless weapon, Potion of cure moderate wounds, Potion of fly, Potion of invisibility, Potion of remove curse, Potion of resist acid 10, Potion of resist fire 10, Acid (3), Alchemist's fire (3), Alkali flask (3), Bladeguard, Caltrops (2), Heatstone, Holy water (3), Liquid ice (3), Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3); Other Gear +1 Light crossbow, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham, Agile Amulet, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Bracers of armor +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Goggles of minute seeing, Handy haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale blue rhomboid), Ioun stone (pink rhomboid), Ring of protection +2, Astrolabe, Bedroll, Blanket, winter, Chalk, Climber's kit, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Hammer, Mapmaker's kit, Mirror, Piton (10), Pole, Portable ram, Pot, Powder (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Shovel, Silk rope (2), Smoked goggles, Spyglass, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Trail rations (3), Twine (50'), Whetstone, 12 PP, 9 GP, 5 SP, 6 CP
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) Use 2 Ki as a move action, to dimension door self.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mapmaker's kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Portable ram +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
Now, if I was going to remake this character I'd go Snake Style and not Crane Style, for better offence. AC34 at 13th level is already pretty good, after all.
Another possibility to consider if you really want to go with a wisdom based monk is Paladin - dip a few levels and you get to use the Channel Smite and then Guided Attack feats, though it's long-winded.
Suggested Stats ++STR>+WIS/+CON>DEX>-INT>-CHA. Rearranging your rolls would look like this>
STR 18
WIS 16
CON 15
DEX 12
INT 10
CHA 5
Not bad, but depending on the party build-up (specifically if you have a fighter who already plans on dealing massive damage) swap STR with DEX (weapon finesse), then CON with STR so you look more like:
STR 15
DEX 18
CON 12
WIS 16
INT 10
CHA 5
This would make your standing AC 17, respectable, your damage rolls get the +2 from STR, but attack +4 from DEX, and you're still getting a bit of boost from CON, though not much. The 10 INT hurts, I like my monks to usually be quasi-skill monkies, but its by no means crippling. Either way above works, depending on play style. I have a monk/fighter/soon to be Duelist modeled after Himura Kenshin that I love to play, his STR is only 11 with DEX 20 and WIS 18, and its why I advocate it here. He doesn't deal a lot of damage, but he's a great field manipulator, using Mobility and Snapping Turtle/Crane style (Master of Many Styles) to beef up his AC and provoke AoO from everything he can before settling in on the squishy. Monks are fun, and I hope you enjoy playing yours!
The only reason I went with Master of Many Styles is to use Snapping Turtle Style and Crane Style at the same time. My build is not just a Duelist type who uses a single piercing weapon but also a purely unarmored character who can exist on the front lines without being beaten into a pulp.
Currently, unarmored, I have more AC than our plate wearing dwarf and the human paladin. If I get Mage Armor (which the Sorcerer is awesome for doing), and fighting defensively (which I do very often, hence Crane Style) I rarely get hit. I COULD drop Snapping Turtle style, but since I built my character for mobility, often times I don't take a full attack action, so Flurry doesn't happen much, I didn't lose out by not having Flurry. Instead, I run around eating up all the enemies AoO for the round, let the rogue flank with me, and let the fighter/pally go where they want with as few AoO as possible. Its not a play style for everyone, or even a decent percentage since most parties aren't built like ours is, but its a fun one, very utility, and a beast one-on-one. Only problem I have currently is enemy evil clerics and their Channel Energy. I don't have that many HP, and unless I can get in and mulch them quickly (or Disarm their holy symbol), I get in danger of eating unavoidable damage. Everything physical is pretty cake. Magic Missile is an annoyance, but most arcane spellcasters don't have many HPs and my 15-20 crit Wakizashi chews them up.
Dude. You're awesome!
I couldn't have asked for better responses! I'm thankful that they are at least "comparable" to a fighter in regards to AC. That's good enough for me. I kind of get the vibe that Monks are a very late bloomer... which I'm okay with! You've helped me a LOT; and for that you have my infinite thanks. With all of this information in this thread I know that I can certainly love monks and make them as survivable and fairly offensive whilst staying kinda cool. Now I can definitely make peace with the monk and carry on through the campaign :)
Dabbler is our resident monkologist along with Master Arimusis(spelled wrong)
plus the word retard is super offensive. besides that go put on a bathrobe
and punch dragons!
Blah blah blah long post above.Now that's some fancy Monk Engineering. I love it :)
Aye, wasn't so much to be a "monk" as I needed the bonus 1st and 2nd level feats, plus the WIS mod to AC. But I do enjoy playing him, he's a challenge to play and to play against. He's only level 5 atm, but I have a blueprint of how I want him to level out and its pretty sweet.
Now, if I was going to remake this character I'd go Snake Style and not Crane Style, for better offense. AC34 at 13th level is already pretty good, after all.
I like crane style feats because its a mirror and stackable Duelist tool.
Parry (Ex): At 2nd level, a duelist learns to parry the attacks of other creatures, causing them to miss. Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action.
Crane Wing
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you.
They both get ripostes later, which I love. Now, what you COULD do, and its boss for pure monks, is use all at once. A crane wing'ed attack is a missed attack, and should provoke an attack for both feats. That would require a ruling from the respective GM, as they might view it as
Combat Reflexes: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity
The question being is the opportunity the attack or the feats giving them that AoO? But that would be on the GM. Subsequently, a Duelist's parry works the same. Snake style would then double your AoO for each miss. A tasy thing indeed.
I kind of get the vibe that Monks are a very late bloomer...
Thanks for your nice comments, but truly I have to fix this statement: the monk as currently written is a never-bloomer. You will occasionally pull off some cool stuff, but at high level, the monk doesn't do brilliantly.
At level 2-6 you have your "sweet spot" where your abilities hold their own. You aren't better than anyone else in a fight, but you are not significantly worse.
By level 7, the fighter has his first +2 weapon and you are starting to lag behind against tough enemies that you struggle to hit and damage.
By level 12, if you run into anything with DR/alignment you really struggle. Other combat types can deal the hurt with massive damage at early levels, and with a +5 weapon later, but monks are not great at massive damage, and are struggling to hit as often as the other combat types.
As for your special abilities, the casters can do all that stuff and better than you, and some are positively detrimental to you (diamond soul) or require a feat-tax (abundant step).
Now it's not all doom-and-gloom. A monk in a game where you fight lots of mooks, or humanoid foes, is able to really kick butt. They can be situationally very good and very useful. But you really have to work hard to make the most of the monk, and it can be frustrating if you do not get it just right.
Some things I have found are that the monk can work better with a few dips of other classes for 1 or 2 levels:
Cleric - gains you access to Channel Smite and Guided Attack (wisdom to hit with deity's favoured weapon). A few extra spells are a bonus too.
Fighter - extra combat feats.
Paladin - one of the best dips, as Smite Evil ignores all DR, and if you have a positive charisma bonus is shunts up your saves.
Wizard/Sorcerer - avoid generally, but self-buffing with mage armour and shield is a good thing.
Duelist - if you have the intelligence score, it can boost your AC and with a piercing attack it can boost damage too.
Now it's not all doom-and-gloom. A monk in a game where you fight lots of mooks, or humanoid foes, is able to really kick butt. They can be situationally very good and very useful. But you really have to work hard to make the most of the monk, and it can be frustrating if you do not get it just right.
I think I would amend this statement to point out that Monks, like Rangers and to some extent Bards, are filler classes that round out an already core party. If you have the monk, and ONLY the monk, as your sole role of heavy DD, then ya, the party is going to be lacking, just as it would if you had only a ranged spec Ranger trying to hold the front lines.
A pure monks strong suit (and this is speaking from primarily a 3.5 standpoint) is their ability to use and abuse combat tricks (i.e. trips, bull rushes, and especially grapples) to great effect against foes that the other members might not want to tango with just yet. Like that alchemist tossing bombs... Run up with your enhanced movement speed, use the Improved Grapple you got as your 1st level bonus feat, and pin him down. But what makes monk great, is while a level 20 fighter grappling is going to do 1d3+STR as his grapple option, provided he elects for unarmed damage, the monk is going to level 2d8+STR. Great improvement? Depends on who you ask. Turn a tough battle into cake walks? I've had many GMs look at monks who took their beefed up spellcaster and pinned them down/beat them into submission and say "I had such a nightmare waiting for you if you hadn't done that."
I do believe in cross classing monks, however, as most style feats can be taken without meeting monk level prereqs, but simply BAB. Fighter is obvious, and one I encourage for any prestige classes. Cleric... this is a tough one to use unless you just REALLY need the extra healing. I've done a cleric/monk Priest of Ilmater in a Forgotten Realms game that didn't do too bad, but there isn't much between the two classes that merge. Can't imagine ever needing to go Pally or arcane. One missed was rogue though. I like monks for their higher skills per level. Rogue adds to it, and fists can sneak attack. It would take a good build concept, but in the right parties, can be quite functional.
Great advice so far!
I would add a semi-spoiler from the Runelords adventure path... You are going to be fighting giant type creatures. A lot of them. Not to mention several other big creatures that hit hard. This tends to force players into specific tactics in order to survive. As a monk, you really have no good ranged option, so you are going to need to melee. You also don't have many options for dealing whopping damage (like a raging barbarian power attacking with a greatsword) so you are forced into trading full attacks with these big bruiser opponents. Oh yeah, I should mention that most also have reach, so they will get attacks of opportunity if you move within their threatened area. You can avoid those attacks by using acrobatics, but big creatures have high CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense), so it will be difficult.
I don't want to discourage you, as I like monks as well, but the Runelords adventure path is probably harder on monks then most campaigns. I recommend playing a dwarf (+2 wis,+2 con, +4 to ac vs giants!). I would also consider taking martial weapon proficiency in a reach weapon, and perhaps power attack as well. While I might frown upon it in other cases, I would consider getting a giant bane monk weapon, and flurrying with it. Just keep in mind that some of the encounters around 10-12 level will have several hundred hp worth of creatures to fight against, so 1d10+5 isn't going to cut it.
Now it's not all doom-and-gloom. A monk in a game where you fight lots of mooks, or humanoid foes, is able to really kick butt. They can be situationally very good and very useful. But you really have to work hard to make the most of the monk, and it can be frustrating if you do not get it just right.I think I would amend this statement to point out that Monks, like Rangers and to some extent Bards, are filler classes that round out an already core party. If you have the monk, and ONLY the monk, as your sole role of heavy DD, then ya, the party is going to be lacking, just as it would if you had only a ranged spec Ranger trying to hold the front lines.
No, sorry, they are not 'round out' classes. They are a 'have no clear role' class. Rangers can act as a front-liner reasonably well, especially with their animal companion to aid them, if they are built for it. Bards are buffmeisters, as fifth wheel they make everyone else better at what they do.
It's been demonstrated that for any action you can think of, another class can bring more to benefit a party than the monk can, which is kind of sad. The monk can do some stuff, but it's largely personal or defensive, it doesn't benefit others much.
A pure monks strong suit (and this is speaking from primarily a 3.5 standpoint) is their ability to use and abuse combat tricks (i.e. trips, bull rushes, and especially grapples) to great effect against foes that the other members might not want to tango with just yet.
This is only true against some foes. Trust me, I've been there and tried it. It fails because:
1) monks are not the best at maneuvers, fighters are (Weapon Training and various weapons give them better bonuses). Monks only get some basic maneuver feats as bonus feats; they do not get the Greater maneuver feats without investing in the same prerequisites as everyone else, which is hard on a class already MAD.
2) As levels rise, many encounters are with large and/or non-humanoid monsters. These are very hard if not impossible to affect with maneuvers. CMDs rise faster than CMBs do, basically. Trip master? sorry, it's flying. Disarm? No, it has natural weapons...
Monks are OK at maneuvers, but maneuvers aren't all that good in the long run.
I'd suggest still taking a gander at Master of Many Styles if you're gonna be rollin' with Panther/Boar. You said you're fine with not being a massive damage dealer, and the ability to use both at once (upping to 3 at 8th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th) can be quite helpful. You can snag the Two Weapon Fighting Feats and effectively "Buy back" Flurry if you have a high enough Dex, if you wanted to focus on a shower of attacks instead of less big ones. Dragon Style can even make your unarmed strike count as a weapon that grants 1.5x Str for Power Attack.
Does master of many styles give the monk bonuses to hit? The bab from flurry is hard to give up for me. Or am i missing something?
It does not. Master of Many Styles is POTENTIALLY amazing due to the sheer number of high powered style feats it can have active simultaneously. But if you want to hit things consistently and effectively, you're better off just picking one set of style feats and sticking to them with a version of Monk that has Flurry.
Dabbler has pretty much summed things up, otherwise.
Nah, it doesn't really get anything to make up for it, unfortunately. I'd suggest taking a few levels of Brawler to round out a Master of Many Styles. The 3 levels of that you take might dip your saves some but the extra BaB helps out at lower levels and once you get 2-3 Styles you're usually good anyway, and the +1 hit +3 damage from the Weapon training analogue makes your fists a bit deadlier.
If you're going MoMS I think MoMS 8/Brawler 4/Whatever X 9"Whatever" could be anything from more Brawler to Ranger or anything else really) is probably the best way to go about it, so you get the benefits of 3 Styles, an extra BaB and some damage (total of +5 if you get Weapon Spec with that 4th level). That's what I plan to do. I've currently got MoMS 5/Brawler 3 going and hopefully it'll be better than the set-up I had before (Straight Monk at level 6. Fun, but painfully inadequate).
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You've given me a great idea!!
I can fix my Attack Roll problem by changing my stats accordingly:
~~20 point buy~~
Str: 12
Dex: 18 (+2 included from Vanara race)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18 (+2 included from Vanara race)
Cha: 5 (-2 included from Vanara race)Combined with Weapon finesse and continually stacking Dex throughout my levels and for my potential wonderous items in the future... I'td take good care of my AC and Hit! I dont mind sacrificing that Str mod damage of +1 in order to help the hit chance of my unarmed attacks. It'll take me from a whopping +3 attack bonus using flurry(str) to a super average +5 attack bonus using flurry(dex). Itll take away only from my swim checks, potential ability to break certain objects, and 1 damage from each attack made. I'd say it's worth it considering it bumps my AC up again, attack, and most of my monk skills.
I figure with this and all of the equipment I've listed in the beginning, I'll be doing 4d10 per Unarmed Strike at level 20 with things active.. not including other damage bonuses or abilities >.> That's decent right? Well to me any damage is decent if I can hit XD
If you are going to forgo strength for Dex then I recommend schilling out 4,000 gp for an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
As levels rise, many encounters are with large and/or non-humanoid monsters. These are very hard if not impossible to affect with maneuvers. CMDs rise faster than CMBs do, basically. Trip master? sorry, it's flying. Disarm? No, it has natural weapons...
Monks are OK at maneuvers, but maneuvers aren't all that good in the long run.
Looking over CMB vs CMD, yes, a fighter's (or any martial class) Base Attack Bonus will out pace a monk's, however, that's the reason why Monk's get Manuever training at 3rd level. I won't bring up the issue about equipment because anything one person has to increase CMB the other person can use for CMD. Also, CMD includes DEX (which in my opinion should be the monk's primary stat, first above wisdom with STR being third) while CMB is STR only. Monsters and large opponents do get a boost to CMB and CMD for manuevers, but any monk who is performing these manuevers should have the Improved and Greater versions of these feats anyway.
I do agree that situationally you will encounter enemies that cannot be affected by certain manuevers, such as a trip affecting a flying monster or disarming an unarmed foe. Unless the GM is constantly and purposefully throwing these types of fights at you in the attempt to minimize the monk (of which I would probably call foul) a good many fights should see use of manuevers. Tripping and Disarming are, as stated above, more situational, but Grappling and Bull Rushing are almost always viable. Bull Rushing an opponent into my allies AoO or into a pit/fire/water happen far too often for me to say that manuever monks fail. By the time you hit high enough levels that ALL of your enemies are somehow immune to manuevers, you should have non-manuever style or combat feats for a safe secondary (if anything, just flank with the rogue and punch) style of combat.
It my just be my style of play, but I've never seen monks as "he's just a different type of fighter" class. They have the BAB of a rogue and not a martial class, the skill ranks of a ranger, and more class skills than a figher or paladin. I just play them as the support class I see them as.
Monk is a 2-4 level dip for fighters.
Monk is a 2-4 level dip for fighters.
I could see it going as far as 6, but not farther than that. Only reason is for the +20 movement, the three hit flurry (if not TWF) and the 30 foot slow fall distance. I use the monk in my Duelist purely for that movement and being able to leap off ledges and balconies to start the slaughter without taking any damage. Works really well, too. Besides that, go at least 4 levels for the ki pool. A fighter with a +4 dodge bonus when he needs it is like having a 1 round Mage Armor 2+WIS times per day. Or Expeditious Retreat. I like that.
IMHO the main reason to stay on beyond 4 is gaseous form and the flurry/fuse stlye upgrade at 8. But it does cost you another point of BAB and flurry is difficult to make efficient use of anyway.
2 levels gets you +3 to all saves, WIS to AC if you want it, up to 5 bonus feats, which, in particular for a master of many styles can allow you to skip prerequisites and give you very early access to stuff like crane riposte, tiger pounce or dragon ferocity. Even if you want to go unarmed, 2 levels give you all your really need. 4 levels get you another +1 to saves, fast movement, +1 AC, maybe still mind and a Ki-Pool, which might sometimes be useful. If you want to go unarmed, it also ups your unarmed damage to 1d8.
Now, crane stlye - riposte is a great defensive feat tree for builds willing to trade a 1d8 longsword for the 2d6 greatsword (or scimitar for falchion), tiger pounce is a crown jewels for all power attack users (in particular in combination with crane style helping to keep defenses stable). Dragon style & ferocity is a must have for unarmed damage builds and great for natural weapons builds, too.
And all of these things are opened up by only 2 levels of monk.
Looking over CMB vs CMD, yes, a fighter's (or any martial class) Base Attack Bonus will out pace a monk's, however, that's the reason why Monk's get Manuever training at 3rd level.As levels rise, many encounters are with large and/or non-humanoid monsters. These are very hard if not impossible to affect with maneuvers. CMDs rise faster than CMBs do, basically. Trip master? sorry, it's flying. Disarm? No, it has natural weapons...
Monks are OK at maneuvers, but maneuvers aren't all that good in the long run.
I meant WITH maneuver training, actually. The monk loses out when flurrying when other classes do not. They still apply their special features to maneuvers: barbarians get their bonuses from rage, the fighter gets his Weapon Training, the paladin his smite bonus to hit, and the ranger his favoured enemy bonus.
That makes all of them as good as the monk at worst, and better than the monk any other time.
I won't bring up the issue about equipment because anything one person has to increase CMB the other person can use for CMD.
The point is that the monk does not have proficiency with a lot of the weapons that boost CMB, so he doesn't get them, end of. If he's going unarmed, they have cheaper enhancement.
Also, CMD includes DEX (which in my opinion should be the monk's primary stat, first above wisdom with STR being third) while CMB is STR only. Monsters and large opponents do get a boost to CMB and CMD for manuevers, but any monk who is performing these manuevers should have the Improved and Greater versions of these feats anyway.
If the monk wants the greater versions, he has to get Combat Expertise and 13 int (on an already MAD class) or suck at it. Having the Improved feats as bonus feats isn't actually helping him much.
I do agree with Dex-monks, but they come with a feat-tax. I'd rather the monk could base off wisdom myself, then he'd be on a par with other martial classes needing one major stat.
I do agree that situationally you will encounter enemies that cannot be affected by certain manuevers, such as a trip affecting a flying monster or disarming an unarmed foe. Unless the GM is constantly and purposefully throwing these types of fights at you in the attempt to minimize the monk (of which I would probably call foul) a good many fights should see use of manuevers. Tripping and Disarming are, as stated above, more situational, but Grappling and Bull Rushing are almost always viable. Bull Rushing an opponent into my allies AoO or into a pit/fire/water happen far too often for me to say that manuever monks fail. By the time you hit high enough levels that ALL of your enemies are somehow immune to manuevers, you should have non-manuever style or combat feats for a safe secondary (if anything, just flank with the rogue and punch) style of combat.
Sadly, I found that the majority of encounters over 10th level were with creatures that for various reasons you could not effect with at least one or more maneuvers.
Bull Rush may work, but doesn't do much. Grapple is very strong when it workd - but it's a standard action, you can't flurry with it (maneuver master excepted), so you only get one attempt a turn, and you can't grapple really large creatures anyway.
It my just be my style of play, but I've never seen monks as "he's just a different type of fighter" class. They have the BAB of a rogue and not a martial class, the skill ranks of a ranger, and more class skills than a figher or paladin. I just play them as the support class I see them as.
Ranger gets 6 ranks/level, monk gets 4 ranks/level. Monk has the same skill ranks as the barbarian, average. They can make a support class, dashing about to where they are needed, the problem is that they cannot do much when they get there: a ranger with longstrider cast on him or a pair of boots of speed can achieve as much and more.
Everything the monk can do, somebody else can do better, is basically what it comes down to - except run away without magical assistance.
Monk is a 2-4 level dip for fighters.
Master of Many Styles is, certainly.
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I meant WITH maneuver training, actually. The monk loses out when flurrying when other classes do not. They still apply their special features to maneuvers: barbarians get their bonuses from rage, the fighter gets his Weapon Training, the paladin his smite bonus to hit, and the ranger his favoured enemy bonus.
That makes all of them as good as the monk at worst, and better than the monk any other time.
Monk's flurry uses level instead of BAB, so their flurry would, barring stat differences and weapons, be exactly the same as TWF.
The point is that the monk does not have proficiency with a lot of the weapons that boost CMB, so he doesn't get them, end of. If he's going unarmed, they have cheaper enhancement.
Was never aware weapons enhanced CMB. I was talking STR boosting equipment like belts and such.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifierDon't see weapon enchantment adding to CMB under combat section or magical item description. Maybe I missed it, but it never worked in 3.5 either.
If the monk wants the greater versions, he has to get Combat Expertise and 13 int (on an already MAD class) or suck at it. Having the Improved feats as bonus feats isn't actually helping him much.
I would take Combat Expertise just for the feat. On a class that won't be wearing armor anytime ever, every bit of AC I can get is a welcome reprieve. The drawback of the negatives can be offset by flanking at lower levels (if the monk isn't doing this nearly 100% of the time anyway, he's doing it wrong), and if the feat isn't necessary at the time, don't use it.
I do agree with Dex-monks, but they come with a feat-tax. I'd rather the monk could base off wisdom myself, then he'd be on a par with other martial...
The bonus feats they get at 1st and 2nd level should offset this, as Weapon Finesse is usually taken by most support classes. I hardly ever play a non-human monk, and since DEX is such a useful tool to the monk (CMD, Initiative, their skills, and AC) taking Weapon Finesse is just too easy a choice. Agile Maneuvers can wait until 3rd level as most everything 1-3 is weaksauce.
Ranger gets 6 ranks/level, monk gets 4 ranks/level. Monk has the same skill ranks as the barbarian, average.
I do stand corrected.
A ranger with longstrider cast on him or a pair of boots of speed can achieve as much and more.
I never take into consideration any equipment when I make my builds because its ultimately out of my hands what my character possesses, and into the hands of the GM. The spell is decent, but +10 movement compared to a 4th level monk having it 100% of the time with ki points waiting to add another 20 trumps it.
As far as being able to do more, rarely do I make a melee ranger. Fighters are much better at it, which would make my ranged Ranger a poor choice for running into melee.
Everything the monk can do, somebody else can do better, is basically what it comes down to.
But no one can do everything that a monk can do, and I would argue that this is a point in its favor. It is a support class. As a support class, it holds its own very well as a party rounding class. The monk I play in my current Pathfinder game is a valued member because it sneaks like a rogue, has the AC of a tank, and can open the battlefield by eating up AoO. No, he's not built for dealing threshold damage, we have a fighter for that. No, he doesn't deal sneak attack damage or find traps, we have a rogue for that. No, he doesn't heal or cast spells, we have the cleric and sorcerer for that. What he is good for is flanking the hard to hit or tough in HP mobs, grappling the threats, or engaging the enemy backlines because his speed allows him to get there, his acrobatics allowed him to tumble through, and his Mobility allowed him not to get hit.
Will monks be the best of all the classes? No. Its support. Its situational. But it also performs well enough that the other classes doesn't have to shore up on themselves what I can do for them.
On a side note, that was a long post...
It does seem that its pretty easy to build a monk in a such a way as to make it just plain ineffective. That being said, I agree Kya, that the monk seems to be flavored to be a bit of a Jack of All Trades, but master of none, except sprinting. :p
Monk's flurry uses level instead of BAB, so their flurry would, barring stat differences and weapons, be exactly the same as TWF.
True, except a TWFer can opt to not TWF, and gain, while a monk opting not to flurry loses. That does not apply to maneuvers as the monk uses his level, but all the same the full BAB core classes all have an ability that adds to their chances to hit, which adds to their CMB, while the monk does not. Therefore, they are better at the outset.
Was never aware weapons enhanced CMB. I was talking STR boosting equipment like belts and such.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Don't see weapon enchantment adding to CMB under combat section or magical item description. Maybe I missed it, but it never worked in 3.5 either.
3.5 never had the CMB/CMD mechanic. Anything adding to your chances to hit adds to your CMB, so weapon ehancement adds to CMB of any maneuver when employed with that weapon.
Some weapons have notes that give them bonuses to maneuvers, for example the Lucern hammer grants a +2 bonus to trip, and has reach as well.
Weapon enhancement adds to any maneuver performed with the weapon, remember. So a +4 Lucern hammer adds +6 to trip attempts, at reach. In the hands of a 10th level fighter with a pair of gloves of duelling, weapon training adds another +4, so that's +10 on the monk...
I would take Combat Expertise just for the feat. On a class that won't be wearing armor anytime ever, every bit of AC I can get is a welcome reprieve. The drawback of the negatives can be offset by flanking at lower levels (if the monk isn't doing this nearly 100% of the time anyway, he's doing it wrong), and if the feat isn't necessary at the time, don't use it.
I've taken it and never used it, the monk's odds to hit are bad enough as it is, and AC is not usually a problem for my monks. It's been a 'dead' feat used merely to get other feats, a feat-tax.
The bonus feats they get at 1st and 2nd level should offset this, as Weapon Finesse is usually taken by most support classes. I hardly ever play a non-human monk, and since DEX is such a...
Where you take Agile Maneuvers doesn't change the fact you have to take it in order to perform properly at maneuvers. It's just one more tick against the monk functioning as intended, so far as I can see.
I never take into consideration any equipment when I make my builds because its ultimately out of my hands what my character possesses, and into the hands of the GM. The spell is decent, but +10 movement compared to a 4th level monk having it 100% of the time with ki points waiting to add another 20 trumps it.
Equipment is part of the game, and the game assumes you to have certain gear at certain levels. Leaving it to the DM is a recipe for disaster if you have a specialist-dependent character and the DM doesn't believe in tailoring treasure encounters or magic shops. Seen how rare amulets of mighty fists are?
As far as being able to do more, rarely do I make a melee ranger. Fighters are much better at it, which would make my ranged Ranger a poor choice for running into melee.
Whether or not you do makes no difference to the fact that you can. Sure, the monk can run 60 feet at 5th level. If your party is that strung out then something is seriously wrong, and what else are you going to use that mobility for? It's not whether the ranger or barbarian can run as fast as the monk, it's whether they can run fast enough to do what the monk can do.
Let's take a ranger as an example of a support character:
Combat - he fights as well as the monk against most things, and better against some things.
Movement - he can move fast enough with a buff, and he has an animal companion that may move much faster.
Saves - he's down on one save, not crippling.
Special Abilities - the ranger has spells. The monk can rush in to a fallen foe with a potion, the ranger can use a spell or a wand of CLW. Spells pretty much trump what the monk can do, as almost all of it is self-only abilities. The ranger can even self-buff better than the monk.
Skills - ranger wins hands down.
So the monk may be better in some instances, but not the ones that really matter.
But no one can do everything that a monk can do, and I would argue that this is a point in its favor.
No, but if they can do 90% of everything the monk can do a lot better than the monk, is the other 10% even relevant?
It is a support class. As a support class, it holds its own very well as a party rounding class.
With precisely ZERO supporting abilities. A BARD is a support class, it can make everyone better at what they do. A Ranger can support, he can do things that effect others positively. The monk has no spells or abilities that boost, aid, or heal others (save the sensei and healing hand archetypes, which aren't that hot frankly and another supporter can STILL do it better). All he can do in 'support' is run around fast - which can be useful, but really isn't that unique and in many cases is not actually all that in demand.
The monk I play in my current Pathfinder game is a valued member because it sneaks like a rogue, has the AC of a tank, and can open the battlefield by eating up AoO. No, he's not built for dealing threshold damage, we have a fighter for that. No, he doesn't deal sneak attack damage or find traps, we have a rogue for that. No, he doesn't heal or cast spells, we have the cleric and sorcerer for that. What he is good for is flanking the hard to hit or tough in HP mobs, grappling the threats, or engaging the enemy backlines because his speed allows him to get there, his acrobatics allowed him to tumble through, and his Mobility allowed him not to get hit.
Which is great that you can use him tactically and all, but a rogue with a single magic item (boots of striding and leaping) can do all that well enough, and more besides. As for eating AoOs, that lasts only as long as the enemy takes to realise that you can't do much to them and there are more dangerous foes to try and hit.
I'm not trying to do you down, but the reality is that several classes can do all those things, and either do them much better than you, or else do a lot of other useful things besides those.
Will monks be the best of all the classes? No. Its support. Its situational. But it also performs well enough that the other classes doesn't have to shore up on themselves what I can do for them.
It's too situational, and can do too little. Even the devs have declared that the monk is a weak class that needs improving. It struggles hard to perform effectively above 7th level, and it isn't stellar below that level.
From reading the post above, and what I've gleamed from other posts: Monk's main weak point is its BAB, secondary is weapon choices. Easiest way I can see to "fix" this would be to remove Maneuver Training and give monk a martial class's BAB, while amending the Ki Pool's magical enhancement to fists to read:
"At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 4th Level, the monk adds +1 to all attacks and damage rolls, increasing by 1 for every 4 levels after. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Would allow for a full monk to effectively have a +5 axiomatic weapon, though they would have to stick to their fists, since the magical properties wouldn't transfer to any weapon held, and it would require a full 20 levels. Not perfect, but its also free. An axiomatic +5 weapon is a +7, or 98,000 GP out of the pocket for one person. It may not be much, but my experience is usually in more poor PC campaigns, and the money is scarce.
Equipment is part of the game, and the game assumes you to have certain gear at certain levels. Leaving it to the DM is a recipe for disaster if you have a specialist-dependent character and the DM doesn't believe in tailoring treasure encounters or magic shops. Seen how rare amulets of mighty fists are?
This runs on the assumption that GMs A: are fair about their gear and B: care enough to allow you to find the items. I've played many games where I've said "I have the cash and then some, I'm going to look for X item." and then never ever found it anywhere because the GM didn't want me to have it. And/or turned around and been fighting against a boss who HAD that item, but destroyed it before dying to spite. My builds are specifically just what I can control on level progression because its 99% in my power to control. Only a few GM exist that will deny class/prestige/feat progression.
Thats the eidolon.
Summoners are broken, in many different ways, and I'll leave it at that.