Talking Players into Running

[Cranefist]

There is a lot of emotional content when PCs feel like they have to run, especially from a fight they started.

Tonight, the party was trying to rescue a noble woman from the clutches of the vile orc chief. The party of 4 2nd level characters was planning on taking on a 5th level orc, 12 first level orcs, and a standard troll, plus a POSSIBLE wyvern rider who may or may not show up (didn't).

They have a good plan. I give orcs -2 strike during the day, so they come in the day, distract the troll with a summon monster, and set fire to the oil treated animal skin tents. They were hoping during the disarray they could bust in and grab the woman and flee.

Instead, first guy out Leeroy Jinkins style charges a random orc and they get embroiled in a combat that seems to get worse every round as more enemies get into the fray and they party doesn't have a spell caster to thin out the orcs.

They manage to cut the woman free who flees to the NPC archer and yet the player playing the cleric decides, screw it, and attacks another orc.

It was only after the paladin was out of healing and the cleric had been revived TWICE, after the fighter is reduced to 1 HP because I managed to roll 1s on a falcion, while the troll and most of the orcs are still up, that they decided to withdraw.

It occurred to me that emotionally, it was the spending of resources, of being out of spells and being below some imaginary HP threshold that let them make the decision they needed to run.

They should have run as soon as the woman was free. They should have known they couldn't win because they have fought orcs before, while level 2, and they are all old gamers. Gamers hate to run. The fighter should have realized he was near death at 6 HP vs. orcs with 2 handed weapons, but being reduced to 1 was all that made him scared. But if they were just suicidal, why run in the end at all?

Anyone else notice the resource thing is what gets PF players to run?

Does anyone think having hero points, and spending them, makes players more likely to run because their get out of jail free card is blown?

[wraithstrike]

Players expect for most encounters to be winnable, so they are accustomed to not running. As a GM I never give a CR so high they don't have a chance at winning. Now that does not mean every NPC they meet can be defeated, but anything I can reasonably expect for them to fight will not be too tough for them. At the same time my players know that there is a time to retreat.

Orcs can be taken down and players don't know what level the NPC's are, nor should they know.

The troll should have been scary assuming they made the knowledge check.

[Cranefist]

wraithstrike wrote:

Players expect for most encounters to be winnable, so they are accustomed to not running. As a GM I never give a CR so high they don't have a chance at winning. Now that does not mean every NPC they meet can be defeated, but anything I can reasonably expect for them to fight will not be too tough for them. At the same time my players know that there is a time to retreat.

Orcs can be taken down and players don't know what level the NPC's are, nor should they know.

The troll should have been scary assuming they made the knowledge check.

I run pretty standard internal scale. You can tell what level NPCs are by their reputation provided there isn't a secret history with the NPC. The orc chiefs exploits were known, so his level was known.

For a LOT of reasons, I think the game is more simulationist if you can gauge CR and Level directly. It helps with RP for me.

[wraithstrike]

In that case I don't know why your players don't run. Do you allow them to die for not running or do you save them?

[Cranefist]

wraithstrike wrote:

In that case I don't know why your players don't run. Do you allow them to die for not running or do you save them?

I roll all the dice in the open. I tell them the levels of the NPCs. If it is important, I declare what I need on the dice before I roll it.

I'll occasionally give some advice. I'll stretch NPC behavior sometimes to give the PC the benefit of the doubt. But that's about it. Like, I let the troll be distracted longer than I needed, but it still came.

[wraithstrike]

I guess luck is saving them. Maybe when one of them dies from not running they will learn. If they had another GM before you, that might be part of it.

I would not worry about it. They will learn to run or they will day. It is a problem that takes care of itself eventually.

[Cranefist]

wraithstrike wrote:

I guess luck is saving them. Maybe when one of them dies from not running they will learn. If they had another GM before you, that might be part of it.

I would not worry about it. They will learn to run or they will day. It is a problem that takes care of itself eventually.

Honestly, I was impressed that they ran away at all.

I'm a big believer that logic is b*$%@*#~ and that everyone makes their decisions emotionally. Logic is just a rationalization of your decision after you make it. That's why the Supreme Court can go 5/4 every time on pure logic, so to speak.

Something about running all out of spells and HP changed their feeling, made them want to run. That doesn't happen in PF much. Normally it is rocket tag. It was big luck the fighter was up with 1. It was luck they nat 20ed an intimidate check after killing the chief to put a break in the fight (which they squandered by jumping back in on their own). That break let the paladin wake up the cleric.

I was thinking, wondering, if hero points or something like them might be good at getting PCs to run. If you explain the hero point as, "play this not to die but know death is coming," maybe they can use it to get away.

[Darth Grall]

Honestly... I have no idea myself.

My players certainly know they can run. Sometimes my players will run from an easily winnable encounter for absolutely no reason. Or they'll just jump off buildings. Idk, if I knew how to communicate to the party that they should run, I probably wouldn't ask the forums for as much advice.

Players are inconsistent. The best I can say is that the NPCs should run too; that might give them the hint... Unless it's cowardly PCs dragging the NPCs off when you want them to fight.