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Monk: Does the extra attack from spending ki as part of a flurry of blows stack with the extra attack from haste?Yes. The extra attack described in the ki pool ability doesn't say it works like haste, nor does it say that it doesn't stack with haste, so the monk would get two additional attacks (one from spending a ki point as part of a flurry, one from haste).
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday
Wow. The extra attack from spending ki stacks with haste. Some will hate this ruling, others will look for way to exploit it, but I am glad that some issues are being addressed.
MA
Interesting. That makes the monk a little stronger, considering I generally tend to assume no sources of extra attacks stack.
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monks suxxors
Wait, people actually assumed it didn't stack?
I'm in the same boat.
Nothing written about it says it doesn't| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Good ruling.
I believe the reason some people said that it didn't stack was because they were trying to prove how bad monks sucked. If this ability stacked it would be good, there for it couldn't stack, because then they would be wrong, and that would be worse than the monk sucking.
Yes, even people that don't want the monk to suck would argue that it didn't stack. Again, because if it did it would be good and they would have less to complain about. "Gee, I really wish it would stack. But by RAW it doesn't. Why does Paizo hate monks?"
I always figured it would, or should. The argument that it didn't relied on a pretty specific interpretation of the exact wording. That kind of nit-picking is not what RPGs should be about.
Wait, people actually assumed it didn't stack?
I did, because it's safer to assume that no sources of extra attacks stack considering most regular sources of extra attacks (specifically haste, speed, and blessing of fervor) say they "are not cumulative with similar effects".
Even if the ki power doesn't say so, it's certainly a similar effect, so it would be a safe assumption that haste/speed/blessing of fervor would not stack with it (because of their specific wording) even though another source of extra attacks could.
And no, that assumption has no ulterior motive whatsoever, as I don't have a side in the "monks rock/suck" debate.
So in my book, this is a good and necessary clarification.
[I edited my post slightly, apparently while Diego Rossi posted. The meaning is the same, so everything should be fine!]
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Wait, people actually assumed it didn't stack?I did, because it's safer to assume that no sources of extra attacks stack considering most regular sources of extra attacks don't stack (haste/speed/blessing of fervor). Yes, those sources specify they don't, unlike the ki power, but it's easy to assume it was simply omitted from the latter.
And no, that assumption has no ulterior motive whatsoever, as I don't have a side in the "monks rock/suck" debate.
So in my book, this is a good and necessary clarification.
/Signed.
The powers/magic items that add extra attack are becoming confused now. Before it was simple: whatever the source you get only 1 extra attack a round from effects that speed up you or seem to speed up you.
Granted the monk Ki ability don't say that it speed up you so it was a error on my part, but there are other abilities that add attacks without "hasting" you (beside the two weapon fighting line of feats)?
Wait, people actually assumed it didn't stack?I did, because it's safer to assume that no sources of extra attacks stack considering most regular sources of extra attacks don't stack (haste/speed/blessing of fervor). Yes, those sources specify they don't, unlike the ki power, but it's easy to assume it was simply omitted from the latter.
And no, that assumption has no ulterior motive whatsoever, as I don't have a side in the "monks rock/suck" debate.
So in my book, this is a good and necessary clarification.
/Signed.
The powers/magic items that add extra attack are becoming confused now. Before it was simple: whatever the source you get only 1 extra attack a round from effects that speed up you or seem to speed up you.
Granted the monk Ki ability don't say that it speed up you so it was a error on my part, but there are other abilities that add attacks without "hasting" you (beside the two weapon fighting line of feats)?
There will likely be people looking to dig up all those abilities to get as many attacks as possible right now, the same thing goes for ninja I assume making them a bit better too.
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Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.
Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.
Though you already said you will never understand, I will try anyway.
The thing is that the monk's speed is a supernatural, mystical ki thing rather than the barbarians impressive physique, so it does not stack with other magical effects.
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Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.Though you already said you will never understand, I will try anyway.
The thing is that the monk's speed is a supernatural, mystical ki thing rather than the barbarians impressive physique, so it does not stack with other magical effects.
Balance wise? The barbarian get +10' to his movement at fist level and that is all he get.
The monk fast movement ability get up to +60'. Adding another 30' to that thanks to haste probably seemed excessive.|
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Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.Though you already said you will never understand, I will try anyway.
The thing is that the monk's speed is a supernatural, mystical ki thing rather than the barbarians impressive physique, so it does not stack with other magical effects.
I could more readily accept this explanation if Bloodline Powers also gave you an enhancement bonus to speed rather than an untyped one. In other words, if the Barbarian was the exception here rather than the Monk. Such is not the case.
Also the ki-based additional attack (definitely supernatural, mystical ki thing) stacks with Haste ;-)
BTW the Fast Movement ability of both the Monk and the Barbarian is Ex. Not Su.
Balance wise? The barbarian get +10' to his movement at fist level and that is all he get.
The monk fast movement ability get up to +60'. Adding another 30' to that thanks to haste probably seemed excessive.
You can cast Haste as a 5-th level character. At that point, a standard Medium PC (no fast movement) will have a 60' speed. The Barbarian will have a 70' speed. The Monk will have a 60' speed, same as everyone except the Barbarian.
In fact, the hasted Monk will have to wait till 12th level to catch up with the hasted Barbarian, and till 15th level to be faster !!!
If anything, this "balance wise" difference means that a fast character will go for a nice one-level dip in Barbarian (+10' speed stacking with Haste) rather than for a 3-levels dip in Monk (same +10' speed but not stacking with Haste).
Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.Though you already said you will never understand, I will try anyway.
The thing is that the monk's speed is a supernatural, mystical ki thing rather than the barbarians impressive physique, so it does not stack with other magical effects.
I could more readily accept this explanation if Bloodline Powers also gave you an enhancement bonus to speed rather than an untyped one. In other words, if the Barbarian was the exception here rather than the Monk. Such is not the case.
Also the ki-based additional attack (definitely supernatural, mystical ki thing) stacks with Haste ;-)
BTW the Fast Movement ability of both the Monk and the Barbarian is Ex. Not Su.
Balance wise? The barbarian get +10' to his movement at fist level and that is all he get.
The monk fast movement ability get up to +60'. Adding another 30' to that thanks to haste probably seemed excessive.
You can cast Haste as a 5-th level character. At that point, a standard Medium PC (no fast movement) will have a 60' speed. The Barbarian will have a 70' speed. The Monk will have a 60' speed, same as everyone except the Barbarian.
In fact, the hasted Monk will have to wait till 12th level to catch up with the hasted Barbarian, and till 15th level to be faster !!!
If anything, this "balance wise" difference means that a fast character will go for a nice one-level dip in Barbarian (+10' speed stacking with Haste) rather than for a 3-levels dip in Monk (same +10' speed but not stacking with Haste).
It is true, still think it is the reasoning behind it though, an enhancement bonus should be (su) in my opinion. As is I rather give them a smaller movement bonus that is not an enhancement and the ability to act as if hasted for a number of rounds per day. That is what I do in my campaign at least,along with a few other adjustments.
You can cast Haste as a 5-th level character. At that point, a standard Medium PC (no fast movement) will have a 60' speed. The Barbarian will have a 70' speed. The Monk will have a 60' speed, same as everyone except the Barbarian.
In fact, the hasted Monk will have to wait till 12th level to catch up with the hasted Barbarian, and till 15th level to be faster !!!
If anything, this "balance wise" difference means that a fast character will go for a nice one-level dip in Barbarian (+10' speed stacking with Haste) rather than for a 3-levels dip in Monk (same +10' speed but not stacking with Haste).
Don't forget the monk can boost his speed by another 20ft at 4th level. And being (Ex) instead of (Su) means he doesn't lose his extra speed in areas of anti-magic.
Extra attacks that don't stack with haste specifically say they don't. I didn't think this FAQ was necessary, but since there are DMs out there surprised by this ruling, I guess I'm glad it was issued.
Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.
What annoys me is that in 3E, a monk's fast movement applied to all speeds, not just land. That was the big advantage over barbarian. Paizo nerfed it because, "lol, monks" or whatever. So now Fly spell + Haste = equal or greater speed than any monk can get, and with the added tactical mobility and maneuverability of...flight! At least in 3E, monk w/ fly spell on him was the fastest PC.
This is fantastic. Thank you for pursuing this and notifying everyone, Master Arminas.
Extra attacks that don't stack with haste specifically say they don't. I didn't think this FAQ was necessary, but since there are DMs out there surprised by this ruling, I guess I'm glad it was issued.
The thing is that the haste spell, the blessing of fervor spell, and the speed enhancement all say they don't stack with anything that has a similar effect. So it wouldn't actually be necessary for other effects (like the ki power) to say anything about stacking, since the spell already does. That's why this FAQ is necessary.
In essence, because of haste/speed/blessing of fervor being written the way they are, anything that does stack with them has to specifically call that out, rather than the opposite being true.
No... they all state they don't stack because they need to in order to not stack...
Please name one form of extra attack that has been confirmed as not stacking with haste that does not say so.
Extra attacks all stacking is the norm, the assumed status. Deviating from that, with haste and its similar abilities, is the exception, and thus needs to be explicitly stated as such.
I'm only continuing because I want to explain why I didn't believe they would stack before this FAQ was issued. I like this clarification just as much as anyone else. Just making that clear :)
To me, the line "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon" does not actually leave much open to interpretation. If an effect is similar, it would not be cumulative with the effect in question, unless the "such as ..." part should be considered an exhaustive list, which would make it a rather oddly written sentence.
As an aside, what other effects that provide extra attack(s) stack with haste/etc?
Actually, the reason for the enhancement bonus to monk speed goes back to 3E and boots of striding. Boots of Striding in 3E had a proportional speed increase that stacked with Monk movement, so that Monks could very, very quickly get an unholy rate of movement that was just ridiculous, and how far they could jump was...well, maps weren't long enough. Jump distances used to be based on a 30' move, and your distance increased proportionately. So a Monk with 60' move could jump twice as far as someone with a 30' move...
In 3.5 they changed it to a flat enhancement bonus and jump modifier that didn't stack, and so it has stayed.
I can remember my Halfling doing a double move and jump with boots of speed and clearing something like 60' at level 6...he landed in the next round. :o
==Aelryinth
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There will likely be people looking to dig up all those abilities to get as many attacks as possible right now
Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting . . .
As an aside, what other effects that provide extra attack(s) stack with haste/etc?
Well, it depends what you even interpret to be "extra attacks" in some cases. But just off the top of my head there is...
Flurry of Blows
TWF
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Come and Get Me rage power
Wild Rager Barbarian's Wild Fighting
Cleaving Finish
Target of Opportunity teamwork feat
Coordinated Charge teamwork feat
"Seize Glory"? teamwork feat, to AoO when someone crits
Bladed Dash spell (particularly when used by a Magus w/ spell combat)
Anything that gives a free maneuver attempt (which are by all rules "attacks") after hitting, like the Grab and Trip monster abilities / eidolon evolutions.
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Speaking of Monk and Haste, I will never understand why the fast movement of the Monk gives him an enhancement bonus to speed (does not stack with Haste, for example) while the Barbarian's fast movement and most other similar non-spell abilities I know of give a bonus (untyped or other type than enhancement) that stacks with Haste.What annoys me is that in 3E, a monk's fast movement applied to all speeds, not just land. That was the big advantage over barbarian. Paizo nerfed it because, "lol, monks" or whatever. So now Fly spell + Haste = equal or greater speed than any monk can get, and with the added tactical mobility and maneuverability of...flight! At least in 3E, monk w/ fly spell on him was the fastest PC.
In Pathfinder the Monk's bonus applies to all speed. If he has a base flight speed then it is applied, if he has a base swim speed then it is applied etc...
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an
enhancement bonus to his base speed, as shown on Table
3–10. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load
loses this extra speed.
Says nothing about his base "land" speed so if you have an Aasimar monk with wings then Fast Movement would apply because he now has a base flight speed.
Base speed means lands speed, I thought. I've never seen any form of speed other than land referred to as base speed.
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AFIK there isn't a clear cut definition of "base speed" in the game.
My interpretation is that "Base speed" are the form of movement listed under your type in the Bestiary.
As I see it, a human monk has only a land base speed unless a spell or power specifically give him a base speed, something that the Fly spell don't seem to do.
A grippli monk with a land and climb speed will benefit from the monk ability on both speeds.
If the monk get a form that give him a flying base speed (polymorphing into an eagle as an example) he will benefit from his enhanced speed.
Ok, while "base speed" may not be specifically defined anywhere in the rules as "land speed", there's an AWFUL LARGE amount of evidence that is the case...
Slow and Steady: Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Slow Speed: Gnomes have a base speed of 20 feet.
Normal Speed: Half-elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Normal Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Slow Speed: Halflings have a base speed of 20 feet.
Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
Could you please tell me what base speed is referring to there? I mean, if base speed does not mean land speed, that could be potentially any kind of movement mode, couldn't it? Where does it even SAY any playable race has a "land speed"?
Looks to me like "base speed" is indeed being used as a synonym for "land speed," unless you'd like to prove otherwise.
But hey, let's check out the Strix that was mentioned...
Normal Speed: Strix have a base speed of 30 feet on land. They also have a fly speed of 60 feet (average).
Again called a base speed, not a land speed. Hmm... It's a base speed on land, a distinction not found in most races, so if base speed does not automatically mean land speed, then the fact they felt the need to specify on land lends credence that maybe dwarves have a 20 ft burrow speed or something?
In any case, even if base speed DOES mean any racial / polymorph-granted speed, it's still a nerf for Monk Fast Movement from 3E. If indeed base speed = land speed only, as I think, then it's a huge nerf.
I always figured the "Monks don't benefit from Haste effects" was a much bigger question than "Does Ki spending stack with Haste?"
I mean, after all, you can't know the second without knowing the first. :P
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Ok, while "base speed" may not be specifically defined anywhere in the rules as "land speed", there's an AWFUL LARGE amount of evidence that is the case...As I interpret it, your land speed is set equal to your base speed unless instructed otherwise (e.g. you are encumbered). However, some effects increase your land speed only (e.g. barbarian fast movement) and some your base speed (e.g. travel domain).
There is at least one precedent I can think of off the top of my head for retaining that difference. Consider wings of air:
Benefit: Your bonus on saves against effects with the air or electricity descriptors and effects that deal electricity damage increases to +4. In addition, you gain a supernatural fly speed equal to your base speed (good maneuverability). You may only fly with this ability when wearing light armor or no armor.So as I read it, barbarian fast movement wouldn't increase your fly speed, but travel domain does.
All of that aside, the PRD currently reads that monk fast movement applies to land speed.
Books take precedent over the PRD unless an official errata was done and the books say nothing about the Monk's Fast Movement only being applied to land.
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Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table 3–10. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
I don't have the 5th printing at hand, but I doubt it is different. So it isn't "base speed" but specifically land speed.
@StreamOfTheSky: AFAIK the base speed of a creature is the speed listed under its entry in the bestiary. The bestiary specify to what for of movement that base speed apply.
You can have multiplòe base speed: a land base speed, a flying base speed, a climbing base speed.
Most creature have only 1 form of movement and don't have any form of movement that isn't listed under their entry, so no dwarf burrowing speed unless a spell or special ability give them that.
To make an example:
Grippli
from statblock Speed 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
....
Grippli Characters
...
Fast Speed: Gripplis have a base speed of 30 feet and a base climb speed of 20 feet.
and just to be clear about the burrowing speed:
Speed: The creature's land speed, and additional speeds as necessary for the creature.
I would imagine that the angel wing feat would add a base fly speed as they are mundane and not magical.
I find it interesting that a Monk's Flurry of Blows can benefit from haste, but a Magus' Spell Combat can't. I guess this is because Flurry specifically states that it is a type of Full-Attack Action, while Spell Combat is a Full-Round Action.
I'm also a bit surprised others didn't think they stacked. Sure, haste says what it says but that still doesn't stop you from using ki as a swift action to get another attack. Let's say you make all your attacks in your full-attack. Awesome. Then, you use your swift to spend ki to gain another. Haste has already done its thing so it can't say no. Now, your ki is doing its thing. Those are clearly two different set of actions going on between full-attack and swift. Haste triggers off the full-attack and doesn't care about swift actions as the swift action to attack doesn't care about the full-attack action either. What's confusing about that?
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We actually had this debate in a PFS game I played about a month ago. I was the one who brought the sorcerer with Haste as a known spell to a table with two monks, and we weren't sure if the extra attack stacked with flurry of blows, let alone the extra attack from spending a ki point.
For some reason, I thought they didn't stack, because I (not knowing much about monks) mistakenly believed flurry of blows had similar wording to Haste about not stacking with other sources of extra attacks. Once we looked it up, one of the monk players argued that they should stack, and I didn't see any reason to disagree. The GM ended up allowing it. Now the FAQ confirms that this was the right call, which I'm glad to have clarified.
but a 20th level Wizard is only as efficient as a 1st level Wizard without feats;
Well, I certainly consider someone routinely casting wish, mage's disjunction, gate, time stop and shapechange a good deal more efficient than someone who is limited to magic missile, sleep, and mage armor.
Also consider that several lower level spells become more potent as a spellcaster gains levels. That 1d4+1 magic missile is a good deal less efficient than a 5d4+5 magic missile, for instance.
I'm seriously considering asking my GM for our upcoming campaign to use Haste in its 3.0 version.
Remember that 3.0 haste was single-target, while 3.5/PF haste is multiple-target.
It doesn't have to be a weaker one with a greater rod or a spell you have spell perfection feat on.
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Monk: Does the extra attack from spending ki as part of a flurry of blows stack with the extra attack from haste?Yes. The extra attack described in the ki pool ability doesn't say it works like haste, nor does it say that it doesn't stack with haste, so the monk would get two additional attacks (one from spending a ki point as part of a flurry, one from haste).
—Pathfinder Design Team, yesterday
Wow. The extra attack from spending ki stacks with haste. Some will hate this ruling, others will look for way to exploit it, but I am glad that some issues are being addressed.
MA
What I dislike is lack of consistency.
The same argument could be made with spell combat.
but a 20th level Wizard is only as efficient as a 1st level Wizard without feats;Well, I certainly consider someone routinely casting wish, ... , gate, ...
I want to see that wizards bank account. 10k-25k a shot adds up fast.
(I'm not arguing your point, just saying....)
Except spell combat is a full-round action. Haste only works with the full-attack action. Also, there no other action you can take after spell combat such as the monk can will full-attack and swift actions.
The redesign was also (IIRC) aimed at making wizards/sorcerers more "team-players" as opposed to "solo-artists", in that it now affects the entire party all at once, and benefits most other party-members more than yourself, while before you would rarely get a chance to cast multiples, and you'd usually target yourself first.
@Silentman73:
I think what should be addressed is adding more ways for combat classes to be potent with one attack. There aren't many ways to meaningfully use a move action (other than moving, and feinting with Improved Feint) that give significant advantages in combat.
I, for one, would like the ability to forgo my 4 two-weapon-fighting attacks at level 6, and instead do one attack (Vital Strike) and something cool and useful with my remaining move action.
Example:
You're good at making the most out of combat situations.
Prerequisites: Wis 13
Benefit: After you hit with a melee attack you may, as a move action, perform any combat maneuver against that target. The maneuver provokes as normal.
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Except spell combat is a full-round action. Haste only works with the full-attack action. Also, there no other action you can take after spell combat such as the monk can will full-attack and swift actions.
Excuse me, where do you get the curious idea that a magus can't use a swift action after using spell combat?
The monk is using a no action (spending a Ki point) to make a extra attack that is still a no action but is part of his flurry of blow.
He don't get any action from that expenditure of a ki point.