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I find that starting a game at level 1 encourages most players to pick humans for the bonus feat. I'm looking for recommendations for how to add a bonus feat to all other core classes and still keep the bonuses balanced so that I can get some diversity in my low level games.
Does anyone have input/ideas for how to balance this for each class? I'm not great with balance of this level.
Has anyone done this before?
Actually, if you have more of a race selection, like with the Advanced Race Guide, you don't get many humans in game. Especially when you run dungeon crawls like I do, most players want to have darkvision so they can sneak up on opponents. The running theme with my current group is that all of them have class access to Stealth, and all have darkvision.
After cogitating on this, I figure that the ARG should help you be able to edit the current race selections rather easily to have extra feats instead of whatever they currently have.
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I can confirm this. When I started my Kingmaker game we had only one "oddball" race - one player wanted to play a centaur - and the others were all "normal" (human and half-elf). By the time I'd gotten through the first chapter I'd expanded the races of my homebrew world in more detail, and players were eagerly picking non-standard stuff for the other games we were running at the time, for one-shots, and so forth. (And KM threw some reincarnate shenanigans at them, and not a single one came back as a standard race; recently the last "normal" character got reincarnated as an Aranea. The only person who's still in their original body is the Dhampir rogue, who joined the game late.)
Between more options and actually enforcing light rules - especially by letting monsters and creatures with Darkvision see the light-dependent PCs' light source from off in the distance and letting them attack at range from out of sight - you'll go a long way toward encouraging more Dwarves, Half-Orcs, and any other races you allow with Darkvision (doubly so at low level, before the Human, Elf, etc. casters get access to darkvision spells). I know in my own case I'm guilty of forgetting about light difficulties unless reminded. >_>
If you're adamant about handing out a free feat to every creature, what I'd recommend doing instead is removing it from Humans. (The ARG VASTLY under-prices the unrestricted bonus feat, anyway. It's far, far better than the measly 4 RP they charge for it.) Instead, just make it a house rule that all characters get 2 feats at 1st level instead of 1, and give Humans some different racial trait(s) in place of the removed bonus feat.
I can confirm this. When I started my Kingmaker game we had only one "oddball" race - one player wanted to play a centaur - and the others were all "normal" (human and half-elf). By the time I'd gotten through the first chapter I'd expanded the races of my homebrew world in more detail, and players were eagerly picking non-standard stuff for the other games we were running at the time, for one-shots, and so forth. (And KM threw some reincarnate shenanigans at them, and not a single one came back as a standard race; recently the last "normal" character got reincarnated as an Aranea. The only person who's still in their original body is the Dhampir rogue, who joined the game late.)
Between more options and actually enforcing light rules - especially by letting monsters and creatures with Darkvision see the light-dependent PCs' light source from off in the distance and letting them attack at range from out of sight - you'll go a long way toward encouraging more Dwarves, Half-Orcs, and any other races you allow with Darkvision (doubly so at low level, before the Human, Elf, etc. casters get access to darkvision spells). I know in my own case I'm guilty of forgetting about light difficulties unless reminded. >_>
If you're adamant about handing out a free feat to every creature, what I'd recommend doing instead is removing it from Humans. (The ARG VASTLY under-prices the unrestricted bonus feat, anyway. It's far, far better than the measly 4 RP they charge for it.) Instead, just make it a house rule that all characters get 2 feats at 1st level instead of 1, and give Humans some different racial trait(s) in place of the removed bonus feat.
Instead, just give humans +1 hp AND +1 skill point per favored class, then the standard feat. That should be enough, heck, that's an option to blow a feat on anyway for humans.
Orthos, if you want a reminder of light, do yourself a favor and spend some time in the country at night. Go driving. Head toward a forest, and compare that to a field once your eyes adjust from turning off all the car lights.
Run some Dark Ages Vampire, and start imagining what it's like to NOT have flashlights.
Orthos, if you want a reminder of light, do yourself a favor and spend some time in the country at night. Go driving. Head toward a forest, and compare that to a field once your eyes adjust from turning off all the car lights.
I'll actually be doing exactly that in about two weeks. Some friends are graduating and we're having a get-together out at one of their places - well out in the Georgia countryside - afterward for a bonfire and dinner. The drive home will be interesting.
What's wrong with playing all human? Could it just be that your characters don't feel comfortable roleplaying a different race? Or maybe their character concept required human to be the race for RP reasons rather than optimization reasons?
Anyway, the best way would probably be to penalize humans instead of powering up other races. Just like the best way to fix fighter is to nerf wizard. Perhaps a penalty on will saves to reflect humanities shifting nature and susceptibility? Or just replacing the feat with a variety of less powerful bonuses? Whatever you do, just make sure you don't nerf human too much. The feat is balanced out by the fact that they only have one bonus to one ability score, and they have no other real racial features. If you take away the feat and don't replace it with something good, you might have a completely non-human party. Which could be a good thing if you prefer a wildly diverse party.
personally, i banned half elves simply because they were too close to being totally human mechanically.
Orthos, if you want a reminder of light, do yourself a favor and spend some time in the country at night. Go driving. Head toward a forest, and compare that to a field once your eyes adjust from turning off all the car lights.I'll actually be doing exactly that in about two weeks. Some friends are graduating and we're having a get-together out at one of their places - well out in the Georgia countryside - afterward for a bonfire and dinner. The drive home will be interesting.
Neat tricks:
Have one eye closed when you are looking at the fire, and when you leave it, switch eyes.
When you walk about in the dark, carry a lit stick as a torch. To use it, hold it BEHIND your head and above it. Walk about in the forest. That is what the dark ages was like. Try reading by candlelight (rich folk could afford this).
Have one eye closed when you are looking at the fire, and when you leave it, switch eyes.
A-la pirate ship eyepatch? ;)
yup. Handy trick, but it robs you of depth vision.
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Well, there's nothing "wrong" with it, but I've heard my (and other's) players say some version of this paraphrasing: "I'd like to play some other race, but the bonus feat is too strong a choice."
So, to compensate this to give players the role-play variety that they're looking for with a more enticing roll-playing option of balancing the bonus feat I wanted some balance ideas for how to homebrew some class abilities that would be good to remove and still balanced with adding the bonus feat option.
I'm not looking to get alternatives to this, but to get some homebrew rule balance ideas.
I find that starting a game at level 1 encourages most players to pick humans for the bonus feat. I'm looking for recommendations for how to add a bonus feat to all other core classes and still keep the bonuses balanced so that I can get some diversity in my low level games.
Does anyone have input/ideas for how to balance this for each class? I'm not great with balance of this level.
Has anyone done this before?
For a rough measurement, try using the Race Builder options from the ARG. All the values for each core race are given, as well as how much the extra feat item costs. Add and subtract until you've given them all the feat, and are all roughly within a couple of points of each other.
Well, there's nothing "wrong" with it, but I've heard my (and other's) players say some version of this paraphrasing: "I'd like to play some other race, but the bonus feat is too strong a choice."
So, to compensate this to give players the role-play variety that they're looking for with a more enticing roll-playing option of balancing the bonus feat I wanted some balance ideas for how to homebrew some class abilities that would be good to remove and still balanced with adding the bonus feat option.
I'm not looking to get alternatives to this, but to get some homebrew rule balance ideas.
Then have humans automatically grant both +1 skill pts and +1 hit points upon leveling, instead of granting a feat slot. Works fine.
I have the same feeling as you do. Especially at first level there is not much you can do to customize. Many archetypes start at 2nd level and higher so for now you are a standard class even when trying to diversify later.
That is why in my games I allow flaws (and traits... that is what traits were made for) You take a flaw you get a feat.
One flaw is always allowed and more are possible if you tie the flaw and the feat you take into the background thematically.
For example lets say you play a old veteran fighter that is exceptionally slow because he has an old cursed war wound (-10 speed) that won't heal. But then he puts the feat he got into Skill Focus (Heal), saying he has spent so much time on battle fields he had to learn to tend to the wounded.
Or your flaw and feat are directly linked. Like you have bad eyesight (-5 on visual perception) but exceptional senses otherwise (+5 on perception when not visual).
I think it gives characters more flavor and also gives a little edge where it is desired. And many hilarious situations arise from flaws too.
For example:
This valyrie-like character that is totally badass when riding and fighting and singing and general ass kicking, but falls prone when attempting to jump over a large crack in the floor most people can just step over (Flaw: Clumsy, -5 Acrobatics)
Then, start above 1st level. The first few levels, from 1-5 are typically involving defensive, and purely numerical feats.
Or, go to a different game system where the power curve is steeper. Try Dark Ages Vampire. Starting characters can go invisible, evoke super speed, etc.
I find that starting a game at level 1 encourages most players to pick humans for the bonus feat. I'm looking for recommendations for how to add a bonus feat to all other core classes and still keep the bonuses balanced so that I can get some diversity in my low level games.
Does anyone have input/ideas for how to balance this for each class? I'm not great with balance of this level.
Has anyone done this before?
I think this really shouldn't be perceived as a problem. Traditionally adventuring parties are mostly human, because that is in most seting the most common race.
I usually play with people who don't want to play humans at all because they find them boring flavorwise (i count myself among them usually).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
agreed, humans in Pathfinder are really really boring. I never play them if I can help it.
For example, I would far rather have an assimar variant than run a human paladin, but I will if limited to just the core book for races.
That's why I recommended just having the human NOT getting 2 feats, instead having +1 hp and skills for every level up in a favored class. Preserves the generic flavor, yet takes away that bonus feat.
You could alternatively give other races the versatility of humans without giving them a feat at all. Give everyone their pick of where their ability score modifiers go and their pick of favored class options. You don't take away any features and just open up more options for everyone.
Giving HP/Skill point favored class doesn't do a thing for someone who wants the favored class bonus for being a particular race. Humans have some of the best choices such as boosting superstitious or giving a spontaneous caster an additional spell known.
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I find that starting a game at level 1 encourages most players to pick humans for the bonus feat. I'm looking for recommendations for how to add a bonus feat to all other core classes and still keep the bonuses balanced so that I can get some diversity in my low level games.
Does anyone have input/ideas for how to balance this for each class? I'm not great with balance of this level.
Has anyone done this before?Most players SHOULD be picking Human, it reflects human predominance. That said, I see a LOT of non-Humans at our local PFS tables, Humans aren' t quite as predominant as you might expect.
Depends on your setting. I've been in plenty where humans are rare, or where the races are mostly the same. Once I was in a setting where Halflings were the most common creature. I played a goliath. I felt so tall!
Golarion is pretty human-centric. PFS even the assimar/tiefling are human descendant. Humans are definitely the most versatile race, and one of the better choices for any given class, but I don't think that was made so they were always the most dominant in every setting...
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Agreed with MrSin. I'm kinda fed up with the humanocentric nature of Golarion, and I see that the PFS players share this sentiment to an extent.
Agreed with MrSin. I'm kinda fed up with the humanocentric nature of Golarion, and I see that the PFS players share this sentiment to an extent.
I'll have you know I'm backed by the "Full Votes for Half-Men Society(of Golarion)". Sadly they never get there way because of the lack of democracy in Golarion, but at least they represent.
Can't help the Golarion base setting being human centric. We can however help with balance to get more people to play other races instead of human. I'm slightly biased towards my own solution of course.
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Agreed with MrSin. I'm kinda fed up with the humanocentric nature of Golarion, and I see that the PFS players share this sentiment to an extent.I'll have you know I'm backed by the "Full Votes for Half-Men Society(of Golarion)". Sadly they never get there way because of the lack of democracy in Golarion, but at least they represent.
Can't help the Golarion base setting being human centric. We can however help with balance to get more people to play other races instead of human. I'm slightly biased towards my own solution of course.
I'm solving the problem with two of my own methods.
1. My own homebrew setting, which is not humanocentric.
2. Highlighting how lame humans are in Golarion when I am the DM.
Come on, Azlant was full of evil jerks, same with Thassilon. One of the few humans to do good was Jatembe, and Aroden wasn't even Lawful Good. The former disappeared, while the latter kicked the bucket without warning. If I had my way, I'd replace some nations of humans with Elves and Dwarves.
I actually really hate how Pathfinder and most fantasy systems in general handle humans. They just aren't interesting, and so they get a powerful unique ability of an extra feat.
IMO There needs to be more breeds of human, more flavor, etc. In my own home setting there is more of a difference between humans of different nationalities than different "races" within the same nation.
IMO There needs to be more breeds of human, more flavor, etc. In my own home setting there is more of a difference between humans of different nationalities than different "races" within the same nation.
That's represented by the "heart of" traits I think actually.
Giving HP/Skill point favored class doesn't do a thing for someone who wants the favored class bonus for being a particular race. Humans have some of the best choices such as boosting superstitious or giving a spontaneous caster an additional spell known.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Getting an extra hp and skill point for every level up is always useful, though boring. That is exactly the flavor of humans in Pathfinder.
Useful, but boring.
Giving HP/Skill point favored class doesn't do a thing for someone who wants the favored class bonus for being a particular race. Humans have some of the best choices such as boosting superstitious or giving a spontaneous caster an additional spell known.Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Getting an extra hp and skill point for every level up is always useful, though boring. That is exactly the flavor of humans in Pathfinder.
Useful, but boring.
how about simply letting them getting two favored class bonus' (simply choosing different ones). a tad bit better but not as good as a variable bonus feat.
dunno, that sounds a bit potent, especially given that the APG lists humans as being able to take extra spells known if they are a spontaneous caster, even if they are a level below the maximum spell level they can cast. That option is a mite too potent, IMHO, and this idea of yours would make that even worse.
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Count me in the boat of people who are tired of human-predominant settings. I'm actually doing a lot of reverse-revision on my own setting to make humans less and less prevalent, due to the setting just having a ton of them when it was first created, out of habit. I've managed to back them down into ruling just three regions of the world, and a few areas where they have a decent-sized population and are a substantial political force but aren't the ruling species.
As well as being one of those who never plays a human if given another option.
dunno, that sounds a bit potent, especially given that the APG lists humans as being able to take extra spells known if they are a spontaneous caster, even if they are a level below the maximum spell level they can cast. That option is a mite too potent, IMHO, and this idea of yours would make that even worse.
It's pretty much a fixed choice between Toughness or Open Minded from dreamscarred press, for the sorcerer at least, because they are probably going to pick that option every time anyway. Also it should be noted that humans are not the only race that gets that bonus for sorcerers.
I had a thought though, because there are many fun builds that really need that extra feat to get off the ground, what if every race choose two feats at level one?
That's pretty much exactly what I suggested. Remove the feat from Humans and give them something else in its place, then houserule two feats at level 1 instead of just one.
Giving HP/Skill point favored class doesn't do a thing for someone who wants the favored class bonus for being a particular race. Humans have some of the best choices such as boosting superstitious or giving a spontaneous caster an additional spell known.Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Getting an extra hp and skill point for every level up is always useful, though boring. That is exactly the flavor of humans in Pathfinder.
Useful, but boring.
Its useful, but useless if you want the favored class bonus. Which was my point. Bothers me a lot because I go for favored class bonuses all the time. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean it doesn't affect anyone.
how about simply letting them getting two favored class bonus' (simply choosing different ones). a tad bit better but not as good as a variable bonus feat.That hasn't made Half-Elves that much more popular.
Half elves get two favored classes, but in a game that doesn't want you to multiclass that isn't very good.
Getting two favored class bonuses each level would be much better.
how about simply letting them getting two favored class bonus' (simply choosing different ones). a tad bit better but not as good as a variable bonus feat.That hasn't made Half-Elves that much more popular.Half elves get two favored classes, but in a game that doesn't want you to multiclass that isn't very good.
Getting two favored class bonuses each level would be much better.
Wizard with a level or two of Fighter, then Eldritch Knight.
But then, I don't like Humans in this game anyway. Too generic.
All races are reincarnated humans, since reincarnate lets you keep feats it's been ruled somewhere that you even get to keep the bonus feat for being human.
Or, make all humans the focused study variant that gets skill focus over and over.
Goal is to make humans less appealing right?
how about simply letting them getting two favored class bonus' (simply choosing different ones). a tad bit better but not as good as a variable bonus feat.That hasn't made Half-Elves that much more popular.Half elves get two favored classes, but in a game that doesn't want you to multiclass that isn't very good.
Getting two favored class bonuses each level would be much better.
Wizard with a level or two of Fighter, then Eldritch Knight.
But then, I don't like Humans in this game anyway. Too generic.
I don't get your point? What does not liking humans have to do with anything? At best you would get like 1-3 more hps or skillpoints if you were a half elf going eldritch knight.
All races are reincarnated humans, since reincarnate lets you keep feats it's been ruled somewhere that you even get to keep the bonus feat for being human.
Or, make all humans the focused study variant that gets skill focus over and over.
Goal is to make humans less appealing right?He said the goal is to make non-humans viable. That's something entirely different. A lot of builds simply cannot function at low levels without the human bonus feat.
The OP has players who want to play non-humans, but can't because they want to play concepts that are only supported for humans. Taking away the human bonus feat means the players can't play their concepts at all.
So reincarnate then?
The suggested Fast Learner bonus feat sounds wonky to me. If you want to encourage play for other then humans then don't use a bonus that is still tremendously useful to any class. Especially considering any use with alternate fave class bonuses.
Why not Focused Study variant trait. It replaces the bonus feat with a free Skill Focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th level. Sure that's even more extra feats but its Skill Focus. It helps your skill users and reinforces a theme of humans as distinctly skilled not merely distinctly generic.
The suggested Fast Learner bonus feat sounds wonky to me. If you want to encourage play for other then humans then don't use a bonus that is still tremendously useful to any class. Especially considering any use with alternate fave class bonuses.
Why not Focused Study variant trait. It replaces the bonus feat with a free Skill Focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th level. Sure that's even more extra feats but its Skill Focus. It helps your skill users and reinforces a theme of humans as distinctly skilled not merely distinctly generic.
Simple, that trait eliminates the ability to create feat focused builds, and replaces it with something that's generic, yet helps with lots of characters.
Ultimately I don't like humans since they are generic, and they have poor vision, and I choose race to specialize my class somewhat via attributes. In fact, I would rather we had class earlier in the core book, with race following it.
There's always starting at lvl3.
Or you can give everyone the lvl3 feat in advance at level 1, then allow them to retrain it at 3.
Or allow players to be of whatever race they like but use the human crunch if they choose to.
Yup, this bit about how lower levels don't get all the golden woobies the later levels do is kinda silly. If you don't like it, start out at a higher XP level.
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Or you can train players to get used to lower power lvls. I got really irritated when one player in my game complained about low his were and he didn't have any scores below 11 at all. :)
*plays fruit ninja with all the thrown tomatos*
Frankly i always found humans to be underpowered, their only benefit is free choice, but really other races get so much more then humans it is ridiculous. I don't play humans even when i want to because the benefit from playing something else is much greater. Which is interesting how /different/ views can be right.
As for feat based concepts that can't be played without an extra feat at first level, i don't believe in such poppycock. Though i certainly like idea of two feats at level 1 for all. But not because some concepts require it.
Or you can train players to get used to lower power lvls. I got really irritated when one player in my game complained about low his were and he didn't have any scores below 11 at all. :)
*plays fruit ninja with all the thrown tomatos*Frankly i always found humans to be underpowered, their only benefit is free choice, but really other races get so much more then humans it is ridiculous. I don't play humans even when i want to because the benefit from playing something else is much greater. Which is interesting how /different/ views can be right.
As for feat based concepts that can't be played without an extra feat at first level, i don't believe in such poppycock. Though i certainly like idea of two feats at level 1 for all. But not because some concepts require it.
Most players are a bit spoiled these days, as they seem to think that they should be instantly potent due to video games influence. Life ain't that easy.
Ultimately, a race can be found for just about any class. The only one that DOES NOT EXIST is one that grants a bonus to both strength and dexterity, both primary attributes for bowyers. So I made one, an elf variant.
So far, the only class that grants multiple feats upon level one are Monks and Fighters, and the only race that grants an extra one is a Human.
Or you can train players to get used to lower power lvls. I got really irritated when one player in my game complained about low his were and he didn't have any scores below 11 at all. :)
*plays fruit ninja with all the thrown tomatos*Frankly i always found humans to be underpowered, their only benefit is free choice, but really other races get so much more then humans it is ridiculous. I don't play humans even when i want to because the benefit from playing something else is much greater. Which is interesting how /different/ views can be right.
As for feat based concepts that can't be played without an extra feat at first level, i don't believe in such poppycock. Though i certainly like idea of two feats at level 1 for all. But not because some concepts require it.
Most players are a bit spoiled these days, as they seem to think that they should be instantly potent due to video games influence. Life ain't that easy.
Ultimately, a race can be found for just about any class. The only one that DOES NOT EXIST is one that grants a bonus to both strength and dexterity, both primary attributes for bowyers. So I made one, an elf variant.
So far, the only class that grants multiple feats upon level one are Monks and Fighters, and the only race that grants an extra one is a Human.
In 3.5 there was a Strong Heart Halfling that gave up the bonuses on saves and gained a bonus feat as a human instead. Not sure if they exist anywhere in Pathfinder Lore, I did have a player who asked if he could play one and my response was: "if you can find it in a Pathfinder book it's legal."
That variant doesn't actually exist in Pathfinder. I do know they are easy to reproduce. Just take away the +1 to all saves that halflings get, and replace it with a feat slot. Personally I would rather have the saves.