The spell does not provide you with invisibility. If you move and the image stays where you were there wouldn't be much use to the spell. RAI is almost certainly that the image is supposed to move with you, otherwise it would not be able to continue to provide its benefit. RAW the wording isn't entirely clear, but "...double that takes the same space of you" doesn't say anything about it staying in the location you were in when you cast the spell. I can see that it could be read that way. But it would be just as easy to read it as it continues to occupy whatever square you are in, which given the likely RAI for the reasons I've already stated...
To my knowledge... It moves with you. It always occupies your square. Its not a level 1 "Disappear and walk away" spell. That would be more powerful than invisibility itself wouldn't it? Its a spell that makes you avoid AoOs, but ceases once someone makes the saving throw to disbelieve. It doesn't keep creatures from seeing or attacking you, just makes you look like you aren't doing anything that could provoke an attack of opportunity.
Doesn't say it moves. Does say it occupies your square. It wouldn't make much sense if it doesn't move with you.
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Here is what Paizo Creative Director James Jacobs had to say about it.
James Jacobs on Illusion of Calm
The spell moves with you, but makes it look like you're simply sliding over the ground. It masks what you're really doing. It's not meant to trick folks into thinking you're not doing anything as much as it is meant to simply mask what you ARE doing. It masks any action, and therefore prevents folks from making attacks of opportunity; it's kind of a "poor man's invisibility" spell in a lot of ways. Foes are not flat-footed against your attacks.
The spell's pretty specific in what it does. Don't let the flavor of the spell's name or its in-game description trick you into thinking it does anything more than what it does—prevent attacks of opportunity when you cast a spell, make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, or move out of your first square during a move action.[/url]
I see nothing that says it moves with you. If it doesn't then it becomes possible to sneak away. You could cast it, then subsequently cast invisibility. Or Teleport, or Dimension Door. You could cast it, then subsequently cast invisibility, and then polymorph unseen, becoming visible only once you attack in a new and surprising form.
Seriously, is there anywhere it says the illusion moves?
I'll counter by saying I see nothing that says it doesn't move with you... and as I've already pointed out the spell becomes of more limited use if it doesn't move with you - because if you move and it doesn't there are now two of you, guess which one everyone will attack - the one that is actively moving about and actively provoking AoO's from another square. If it doesn't move how can it continue to provide it's benefits to you?
Is it really as easy to read *either* way?
No its not. The more logical reading is it moves with you. I can see your reading of it, I just don't agree with it and have provided reasons why I don't.
Outside of buff spells or other spells that don't have visible effects leaving your square, I'm imagining that the spell allows your character to move in such a way as to not provoke attacks of opportunity IE appear to cast defensively, appear to throw as if you had the Close Quarter's Thrower Feat or appear to move out of your square in such a way as to not leave an opening.
So what your saying is, if we say anything you'll counter until we tell you that you can abuse your reading of this spell?
@Alakest are you thinking Mr. Jacobs is wrong or just think this should have an errata?
Is there any authority to which I can appeal and get a ruling on this?
The faqs button.
The problem wouldn't be the ability of the spell to make an illusory double just stand there, while the character walked away. The problem would be that wouldn't protect you from any of the things it says it would protect you from. UNLESS it makes you invisible. Which it doesn't say it does. And that would make it equal to 4th level spell, since the way it is written it would still allow you to attack.
@ Alakest are you saying that you think Mr. Jacobs is wrong?
The spell you want is mislead, a 6th level spell. Do you believe a first level spell should mimic a 6th level spell?
So when you say "I'll counter by saying I see nothing that says it doesn't move with you..." I feel confident you detect no mention of the illusion moving. Do mended Items stay where you put them? Does created food follow a Cleric around?
Sure. Feel confident all you want, just as I feel confident you find no mention that it doesn't move. Given there is no reasoning to be made along that line I provided you with different reasons for why I come to the conclusion I have.
@ Alakest are you saying that you think Mr. Jacobs is wrong?So I've looked at what he said and have to say that if it works the way he explains it, then it's a poorly written, fairly useless spell. Who created it? Did he?
No idea who exactly created it, but it has its uses. Such as completely avoiding AoOs until someone makes a will save after attacking you.
James Jacobs most likely did not write that spell.
Useless is relative. Personally I'm not terribly impressed with the spell. But not getting a great axe to the face while you move away or cast a spell at the raging barbarian in front of you sounds like a pretty good deal (though why did you ever let a raging barbarian get next to you in the first place without other defenses up...)
I could provide you a good list of first level spells that I feel are worthless. The perceived worth of a spell, ability, class, etc does not define how such spell, ability, or class works though. You can't argue that because X is weak that it doesn't work like it actually does. You can argue that it is worthless, or needs to be buffed, but that does not change how it actually works.
Let's get this straight: I never assert it makes you invisible outside the square you cast it in. I doesn't need to. It only saves you from AoO going into the first square.
But if that's what the spell does, the spell needs to say that. It would say, "so long as you don't move from the square you cast it in it prevents AoO's". Given that is not the wording, the wording being to effect that it prevents AoO's till the spell ends, then you've placed your own limit on it by requiring it to only effect the square you started in.
Given that the spell prevents AoO's even from moving, that really gives me an impression of the spell being mobile, else how would it prevent an AoO against movement.
It only saves you from AoO going into the first square.
To follow up on bbangerter. No It's not saying you are only protected from AoO from the first move action but rather the first move.
during a move action. Just like it's not just the first spell or first thrown attack. This wouldn't make sense if it didn't stay with you.
When casting this spell, you create an illusory double that takes the same space of you. That double makes it look like you are standing still, even when you are not. While under the effects of this spell, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you cast a spell, make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, or move out of your first square during a move action. It does not hide ranged attacks made with any type of projectile weapon.
And as far as utility, for a 1st level spell with a minute per level to allow a Magus to not have to worry about casting defensively when doing Spell Combat or an Alchemist to throw and not get AoO is pretty good in my opinion. Yeah if they hit you, then all bets are off, but you are just back to where you were before hand.
Since we're going to work STRICTLY to the text, please indicate the part where there is *ANY* indication that that the illusion moves once it has been cast.But if that's what the spell does, the spell needs to say that. It would say, "so long as you don't move from the square you cast it in it prevents AoO's". Given that is not the wording, the wording being to effect that it prevents AoO's till the spell ends, then you've placed your own limit on it by requiring it to only effect the square you started in.
Let's get this straight: I never assert it makes you invisible outside the square you cast it in. I doesn't need to. It only saves you from AoO going into the first square.
Shrug, you don't have to agree with me. I'm giving you logical reasons for why I think it works the way I believe. You've given me... "I want it to work differently" which, no offense, isn't much of a reason. Really since your DM disagrees with you, you need to convince him. But coming here doesn't look like it is going to give you the support you want in that direction for this particular issue. You might consider that your GM has the correct intent of how the spell is supposed to work.
James Jacobs (creative directory of pathfinder) gave his opinion on it (but he does not make official rules declarations - though its likely the most *official* answer you are going to get on this spell).
I believe it is intended to mean that one has moved out from under the stationary spell and are no longer "under it's effect". A remedy would be to sneak away. Another would be to teleport away.
Do we honestly think a first level spell is going to pop up where a 5th level spell has taken you? Would it be more parsimonious from a physics stand point to have it remain where it was cast?
In a moving version the spell is detrimental - any sneaking and the illusion flags the five foot square you're in. Same for invisibility.
If you want to sneak away cast Vanish (also a 1st level spell). If you want to continue fighting without eating AoO's cast Illusion of Calm. Different spells are useful in different situations. Understanding the benefits and limitations of any given spell is part of knowing when you use a given spell or when to pick something else.
The illusion only works because it makes you look like your committing no acts. Regardless, who's going after the guy standing still when there is one running away throwing fireballs?
You're giving me logical reasons for what you suppose, you've even appealed to authority - yet you're not pointing to any point where the text says the illusion moves.
And your pointing out in the spell where it states it stays in a single spot is.... where? And you've appealed to authority to prove your viewpoint... where? Paizo isn't going to swoop in and answer your question, so I can't help you there.
"...takes the same space of you" doesn't say "unless you move". If you move, how does it still take the same space as you? The spell lasts for X duration. If you and the spell are no longer in the same space how does it continue to provide its benefit? Not only have you not provided a statement from the spell that indicates it doesn't move with you, you haven't provided any reason how the spell continues to function for its full duration should you move. Nothing in the spell indicates the spell ends if you move.
But as I've said previously, talking about what spell does not state for one side or the other isn't really a good argument for how the spell is supposed to work.
"The rules don't say dead people can't take actions. So dead people can therefore take actions." This is the essence of what we are discussing if we discuss how IoC doesn't say anything about whether the illusion moves with you or not. It's an untenable point in the discussion for either side to make claims based upon.
If you want to sway anyone to your viewpoint, then you need to at least provide a reason besides, "I think the spell is useless if it doesn't work like I want it to." That just means its not useful for the intent you want to use it for. There are other applications where the spell is useful.
If the illusion stays put, there should be something stating that the protections that spell offers from AoO end when you leave your original square - it doesn't.
It should also should have something about the range of the spell, so it is known how far from the illusion you can go - it doesn't, the only range is "personal".
One would expect that instead of having "Target you" it would have something more like "Target/Effect you/one illusory double" from the Mislead spell
Also it says "makes it look like you are standing still". Not that the illusion stands still, nor does it state ALWAYS. This very last point is not only important to whether it moves with you, but to other claims that this spell allows more than what it says it does.
So, to all who care to read, here is how I think the spell works:
1. You cast it
2a. It creates an illusion of yourself just standing there.
2b. It renders any of your other movements in that square invisible.3a. While in the square the invisibility affords avoidance of any attacks of opportunity.
4a. When leaving the square you benefit from having just been invisible by avoiding the possibility of an attack of opportunity.
4b. All other movement is not modified by this spell.
5. When the duration of the spell has elapsed, the spell, and it's effects such as the illusion, end.
Anyone read the text and think it's different than that? Is there a simpler way to account for what the spell describes?
I disagree, based on what the spell say it doesn't affect one movement, it says you don't provoke an AoO for the first square you move out of. That means you don't provoke for moving out of the square you start in at the beginning of your turn as you normally would. If however you have multiple opponents and the 2nd square you would move out of is threatened you still provoke. However, the illusion moves with you and on your next turn you can move again and you don't provoke for moving out of that first square again.
Nowhere does the spell say you are limited to only one move action with it.
You are basically trying to create a poor mans Mislead spell by casting this and then invisibility. But Mislead is 6th level spell and this has already been pointed out. You've also had it pointed out where JJ gave his opinion as creative director about what the intent of the spell is. I think you are trying to reach to combine spells to do something that isn't intended, and if I were your GM I wouldn't allow it.
So when people disagree with you, you assume that it's because they are irrational?
In the intrest of politeness and maintaing my account I'm simply not going to respond to you any longer. My personal request is that you not muddy-up what I and others are discussing.
Request denied.
I'm discussing the same thing everyone else has been discussing. I've just tried to explain it further to help you understand the viewpoint we are looking at it from - to no avail since you are simply ignoring it, instead of addressing the viewpoint as to why it you think it is invalid.
You are of course free to ignore anything I post, though the claim about 'muddying the waters'... eh, whatever. Given you have yet to find a 'rational' person who agrees with you on these forums - the waters look perfectly clear to the rest of us in this discussion. You'd best ask everyone who has participated in this thread so far to stop participating, cause so far none of us have agreed with your interpretation.
Apparently the GM of your current campaign is irrational as well. Do any of the other players at your table agree with your view?
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Here's my take. It's a personal spell, and there's no effect line. That means it's a magical effect that is on you, and lasts a duration. You don't create an illusory double in a specific space, you create an illusory double that occupies your space. When you move, it will continue to occupy whatever space you are in, because the spell affects you for a duration, not a space on the floor.
This is strengthened by the fact that it also states "while under the effects of this spell", which further confirms that the target is "you", and not a space on the floor, and stays with you, even if you move somewhere else (just like every other personal range, non-instantaneous duration spell in the game). There's nothing in the description that says that if you move, you lose the effects of the spell, which is what would have to happen if the illusory double stayed in the square after you moved.
