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I'm not trying for utter optimization...PCs should see them as very tough at early levels, but not overly threatening as they level up into mid levels...still a significant obstacle, though, if it comes down to it.
RRC - SOLDIERS
CR 2
Male Human fighter 3
None medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +4,
Languages Common
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18
hp 31 (3HD)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +2, +1 Will vs. fear
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee masterwork battleaxe +6 (1d8+2/x3)
Melee dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20)
Ranged dagger (thrown) +5 (1d4+2/19-20)
Ranged masterwork crossbow (light) +6 (1d8/19-20)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 17 Abilities Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Special Qualities Armor Training, Bonus Feat, Bravery, Skilled,
Feats Armor Proficiency, Heavy, Armor Proficiency, Light, Armor Proficiency, Medium, Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Saving Shield, Shield Proficiency, Shield Wall, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Acrobatics -1, Bluff -1, Climb +5, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Heal +1, Intimidate -1, Perception +4, Perform (Untrained) -1, Ride -1, Sense Motive +1, Stealth -1, Survival +7, Swim -1,
Possessions masterwork battleaxe; masterwork breastplate; traveler's outfit; masterwork shield (heavy/steel); bolt, crossbow (x10); dagger; Masterwork Crossbow (Light) ; Armor Training (Ex) You are more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever you are wearing armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by +1
Bonus Feat Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Bonus Feats
Bravery (Ex) You gain a +1 bonus to Will saves against fear effects.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Oh...I'm going to be switching the ranks in Climb to Profession: Soldier.
I'm using the elite array...I don't want them outclassing PCs. At 3rd level, they regularly pull AC 22, 24 possible...with 31 hp. I could make them 4th level, but they're not meant to be knights, or anything like that, so I didn't make them mounted. They're supposed to be heavy infantry.
Hobilars. Medieval infantry, mounted for travel, fighting on foot. Keeps the troops rested for combat. You don't need warhorses for this, just riding horses and you hobble them and leave a couple of guards with them when you dismount to fight. A good duty for nubies before they are trusted to fight with the old hands. I usually use the NPC classes for non adventurers, saving the PC classes for special individuals, but as you said this is an elite unit so that seems reasonable... still I like the Warrior for these type of troops.
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Hobilars. Medieval infantry, mounted for travel, fighting on foot. Keeps the troops rested for combat. You don't need warhorses for this, just riding horses and you hobble them and leave a couple of guards with them when you dismount to fight. A good duty for nubies before they are trusted to fight with the old hands. I usually use the NPC classes for non adventurers, saving the PC classes for special individuals, but as you said this is an elite unit so that seems reasonable... still I like the Warrior for these type of troops.
I'm using the elite array...I don't want them outclassing PCs. At 3rd level, they regularly pull AC 22, 24 possible...with 31 hp. I could make them 4th level, but they're not meant to be knights, or anything like that, so I didn't make them mounted. They're supposed to be heavy infantry.
I agree...they don't move on foot...they just aren't cavalry. In general, I consider fighter to be the appropriate class if they're professional soldiers that see regular combat - garrisons I make warriors...and even the mass of a field army...but mercs, elite guard, and the like I make a PC class. I'm planning on an elite unit of magi, too. ;)
Hobilars. Medieval infantry, mounted for travel, fighting on foot. Keeps the troops rested for combat. You don't need warhorses for this, just riding horses and you hobble them and leave a couple of guards with them when you dismount to fight. A good duty for nubies before they are trusted to fight with the old hands. I usually use the NPC classes for non adventurers, saving the PC classes for special individuals, but as you said this is an elite unit so that seems reasonable... still I like the Warrior for these type of troops.
I'm using the elite array...I don't want them outclassing PCs. At 3rd level, they regularly pull AC 22, 24 possible...with 31 hp. I could make them 4th level, but they're not meant to be knights, or anything like that, so I didn't make them mounted. They're supposed to be heavy infantry.
I agree...they don't move on foot...they just aren't cavalry. In general, I consider fighter to be the appropriate class if they're professional soldiers that see regular combat - garrisons I make warriors...and even the mass of a field army...but mercs, elite guard, and the like I make a PC class. I'm planning on an elite unit of magi, too. ;)
Makes sense. I usually just bump them up in level and stick with NPC classes but, I see your point. I tend to go for a range of levels in a unit as well, but if this is an elite unit with an entrance requirement it makes sense for them to be uniform in level (outside of officers / commanders?).
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Makes sense. I usually just bump them up in level and stick with NPC classes but, I see your point. I tend to go for a range of levels in a unit as well, but if this is an elite unit with an entrance requirement it makes sense for them to be uniform in level (outside of officers / commanders?).Hobilars. Medieval infantry, mounted for travel, fighting on foot. Keeps the troops rested for combat. You don't need warhorses for this, just riding horses and you hobble them and leave a couple of guards with them when you dismount to fight. A good duty for nubies before they are trusted to fight with the old hands. I usually use the NPC classes for non adventurers, saving the PC classes for special individuals, but as you said this is an elite unit so that seems reasonable... still I like the Warrior for these type of troops.
I'm using the elite array...I don't want them outclassing PCs. At 3rd level, they regularly pull AC 22, 24 possible...with 31 hp. I could make them 4th level, but they're not meant to be knights, or anything like that, so I didn't make them mounted. They're supposed to be heavy infantry.
I agree...they don't move on foot...they just aren't cavalry. In general, I consider fighter to be the appropriate class if they're professional soldiers that see regular combat - garrisons I make warriors...and even the mass of a field army...but mercs, elite guard, and the like I make a PC class. I'm planning on an elite unit of magi, too. ;)
I already have 5th lvl sergeants and 7th lvl lieutenants drawn up. The Lieutenants are actually built on 20 points...but I let people roll 3 of 4, on the grid.
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The lieutenants:
RRC - LIEUTENANTS
CR 6
Male Human fighter 7
None medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +8,
Languages Common
AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 23, Combat Expertise
hp 67 (7HD)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +3, +2 Will vs. fear
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee battleaxe +1 +12/+7 (1d8+6/x3)
Melee dagger +10/+5 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged dagger (thrown) +9/+4 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged masterwork crossbow (light) +10/+5 (1d8/19-20)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 22
Atk Options Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Abilities Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
Special Qualities Armor Training, Bonus Feat, Bravery, Skilled, Weapon Training,
Feats Armor Proficiency, Heavy, Armor Proficiency, Light, Armor Proficiency, Medium, Bodyguard, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Shield Bash, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Saving Shield, Shield Proficiency, Shield Wall, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe), Weapon Specialization (Battleaxe)
Skills Acrobatics -2, Acrobatics (Jump) -6, Appraise +1, Climb -1, Craft (Untrained) +1, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Heal +1, Intimidate +10, Perception +8, Profession (Soldier) +10, Ride -2, Sense Motive +5, Stealth -2, Survival +7, Swim -1,
Possessions battleaxe +1; full plate +1; outfit (traveler's); shield +1 (heavy/steel); bolt, crossbow (x10); dagger; Masterwork Crossbow (Light) ; Armor Training (Ex) You are more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever you are wearing armor, you reduce the armor check penalty by 2 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by +2
Bonus Feat Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Bonus Feats
Bravery (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves against fear effects.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Weapon Training (Ex) Attacks with a weapon from listed groups, gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls. (Included in weapon blocks)
This is a standard...but as there aren't many of them, I'll likely personalize them somewhat.
Human F3, Combat Reflexes, TWF, Shield Wall, Saving Shield, Bodyguard.
With battleaxes and large shields, I'm not seeing TWF happening. You don't want to TWF at -4/-4, you don't want to go down to light shields. You could go heavy shield & hand axe, but I don't really think you want to shield bash without Imp. Shield Bash.
How about Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Shield Wall, Saving Shield, and then either Pack Attack, Opening Volley or Swap Places?
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Human F3, Combat Reflexes, TWF, Shield Wall, Saving Shield, Bodyguard.
With battleaxes and large shields, I'm not seeing TWF happening. You don't want to TWF at -4/-4, you don't want to go down to light shields. You could go heavy shield & hand axe, but I don't really think you want to shield bash without Imp. Shield Bash.
How about Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Shield Wall, Saving Shield, and then either Pack Attack, Opening Volley or Swap Places?
Excellent. This is exactly what I was hoping for. Hmmm...let me see...
Opening Volley looks very sweet, indeed. Swap Places would be good, too...Pack Attack encourages them to break the Shield Wall...I think Swap Places might be best, here, keeping a fresh combatant in the front rank...
Yup, Swap Places is a winner.
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If they are potential antagonists for later levels, +6 to nothing cut the mustard (or the PCs). I would trade out two weapon fighting for weapon focus and make them weapon master fighters rather than vanilla fighters. At that point, they are +8. I would also look for the lieutenants to be more than just better versions of the soldiers. If you changed their stats a little (just switching wisdom & charisma would do), you could make them fighter 3/bard 4 for example which would enable them to inspire the soldiers & make them more dangerous as a whole. If you want to keep them in fullplate, just pick spells with no somatic components an archetype that loses spells or ignore them entirely. If a sternly religious company is more what you had in mind or even if you just want variety in your lieutenants,fighter 3/cleric4 (crusader if you don't want to give up feats) offers bless and a variety of other buffs. And it wouldn't entail significant sacrifice of the lieutenant's personal abilities either.
Have you thought of making one of the lieutenants a cavalier or bard?
A unit should have some magical support -- even a low-level bard can be really effective when boosting 100 people, or a low-level cleric channelling to heal a lot. Especially with variant channelling rules to use channel energy to give people a boost. Some wizard spells, like flame arrow, are much more useful when supporting large groups than when supporting a small band of adventurers.
Don't have to have the officers be bards or clerics, either. One of them could have the Flagbearer feat from the Inner Sea World Guide, but the company herald might be a bard, or the company medic be a cleric, or the company engineer be a wizard.
The bard bonus on saves vs. fear is also very important for elite military units.
I will note that in the AP's I've seen, ELITE mercs are level 7 all by themselves. Maybe elite government soldiers are level 4, but the AP's put the onus higher when dealing with highest end mercs for hire.
==Aelryinth
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I will note that in the AP's I've seen, ELITE mercs are level 7 all by themselves. Maybe elite government soldiers are level 4, but the AP's put the onus higher when dealing with highest end mercs for hire.
==Aelryinth
Really? Interesting...I'd like to see a source. Are we maybe talking Worldwound stuff??
I will note that in the AP's I've seen, ELITE mercs are level 7 all by themselves. Maybe elite government soldiers are level 4, but the AP's put the onus higher when dealing with highest end mercs for hire.==Aelryinth
As to making some officers cavaliers or bards...or other classes...that has crossed my mind...and I'm not against the concept. They would add considerably, no doubt. I do already have a group of cavaliers set up - and the standard for them is 6th level...but they're a smaller unit.
As for level and class a lot would depend on the setting. Is this Golarion, another published setting or homebrew? Mine is homebrew and my class levels are typically lower than a lot of AP material. I'd say 3rd level for elite troops, as you did...
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I will note that in the AP's I've seen, ELITE mercs are level 7 all by themselves. Maybe elite government soldiers are level 4, but the AP's put the onus higher when dealing with highest end mercs for hire.==Aelryinth
As for level and class a lot would depend on the setting. Is this Golarion, another published setting or homebrew? Mine is homebrew and my class levels are typically lower than a lot of AP material. I'd say 3rd level for elite troops, as you did...
As to making some officers cavaliers or bards...or other classes...that has crossed my mind...and I'm not against the concept. They would add considerably, no doubt. I do already have a group of cavaliers set up - and the standard for them is 6th level...but they're a smaller unit.
Very cool. Yeah, it's a homebrew. I likely use a scale that's a bit low for most, to allow the PCs to shine. Most folk are level 1-2, and commoners are vastly the most common. In rural areas and the bad side of the city, they're second more often than the safer areas...the other NPC classes get slightly more play, though damn few ever make it past 4th or 5th, in a world where experience largely comes from combat (and if not, why do you get tougher?). Most of my guards are War2...armies are rarely more than that, except for the special units...professional soldiers are usually Ftr2, instead, with Ftr3-4 elites...and a handful of exceptional small units at lvl 5 and 6.
I have a tendency to define the most powerful in any given area - like in the big city that's so important in my present game, where there are a bare handful over 10th level, with two at 14th being the top end - one cavalier, and one monk/shadowdancer. Usually any character over 13th to 14th is renowned, and the best known in a whole kingdom is likely no higher than 16th-17th level. I prefer that players know, once they get into the teens of levels, that there are damn few that compare...and that way, when there's a big threat...who ya gonna call?
Very cool. Yeah, it's a homebrew. I likely use a scale that's a bit low for most, to allow the PCs to shine. Most folk are level 1-2, and commoners are vastly the most common. In rural areas and the bad side of the city, they're second more often than the safer areas...the other NPC classes get slightly more play, though damn few ever make it past 4th or 5th, in a world where experience largely comes from combat (and if not, why do you get tougher?).I have a tendency to define the most powerful in any given area - like in the big city that's so important in my present game, where there are a bare handful over 10th level, with two at 14th being the top end - one cavalier, and one monk/shadowdancer. Usually any character over 13th to 14th is renowned, and the best known in a whole kingdom is likely no higher than 16th-17th level. I prefer that players know, once they get into the teens of levels, that there are damn few that compare...and that way, when there's a big threat...who ya gonna call?
Sounds like our campaigns are pretty much on the same page. My main city is the center of adventuring in my world and tends to be higher level than the norm at the upper end. I'd say 1-4 is low level, 5-8 mid level, 9-12 high, 13-16 famous / infamous, 17+ legendary / internationally well known. Low level are just that, mid level are known locally, High level characters are movers and shakers locally, famous / infamous are top level in a region and legendary are just that whether living or dead. My NPC class characters tend to range up to high level, typically 10th, (but not much higher) due to time / experience on the job and are commonly low level with some mid level at best. I have a progression for experience level based on age and area (less or more dangerous) and profession (again, less or more dangerous) for NPCs. People stop leveling up when they get old and retire (if they can retire...).
The first AP where I noticed it was Serpent's Skull...the mercs hired by the mercantile faction to ambush you are f/r's 4/3.
I believe the 'rote' hobgoblins in part IV of Jade Regent are level 7.
I think one of the elite merc bands out to get you in Kingmaker are level 7.
In Skull and Shackles, you go up against elite Cheliax mercs, and in a prior book, swashbuckler f/rgoues. Level? 7, of course.
===Aelryinth
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The first AP where I noticed it was Serpent's Skull...the mercs hired by the mercantile faction to ambush you are f/r's 4/3.
I believe the 'rote' hobgoblins in part IV of Jade Regent are level 7.
I think one of the elite merc bands out to get you in Kingmaker are level 7.
In Skull and Shackles, you go up against elite Cheliax mercs, and in a prior book, swashbuckler f/rgoues. Level? 7, of course.
===Aelryinth
Thanks for the info. I'll look up at least a couple of them...
I really don't think either way is bad...but if you have a *LOT* of higher levels, it makes the PCs a bit less special...
They were minions. They all occured in books where the PC's are supposed to be 8-10 or higher levels. And since they have less effective gear, they are still just minions.
==Aelryinth