In Defense of Faction Missions

[kinevon]

Mazym wrote:

Isn't PFS the only OP play option? You are pretty much stuck with playing a PFS agent if you want to OP in PF. The factions give variety in what might otherwise be a "you are the Mission Impossible team" game. More Decemvirate focus and less factions means more MI team feel and less variety of motive. Not saying good or bad, but different. I guess good for player cooperation and not having weird breaks in the action. Bad for folks who are only PFS agents as a way to play and really want to be <faction> agents.

No, PFS is not the only Pathfinder RPG OP campaign. It is the only one from Paizo, but there are others.

NeoGenesis, from LPJ games, which former VC JP Chapeau is involved with.
IIRC, Living Arcanis has updated to use PFRPG instead of 3.5E.

There may be others, as well.

[Pirate Rob]

Living Arcanis became Legends of Arcanis and uses its own system now.
There is an ENWorld OP campaign called Living Pathfinder.

[Cold Napalm]

Honestly, the only real issue I have is with GM skill level. Even with the faction mission stated out directly, I have seem GM screw things up royal. Like forgetting to tell a faction where one of the item they need is...or forgetting an NPC that is faction vital as just some guy over there. I shutter to think what would happen when the optional goal is even MORE vague. I'm okay with the whole table works on one extra side quest deal as it makes things a whole lot easier...but I think the players really should know ahead of time what the extra side quest actually is and not some vague do something over there somewhere.

[Joko PO]

OK, my two copper.

Factions and by extension Faction Missions were a great idea with some basic flaws that caused them to evolve poorly. While the flavor is inspiring and helps create the "feel" for PFS that has made it successful, the the end result has become trivial.

The primary problem with Faction Mission is one of time. Time is a precious resource for a PFS scenario. Trying to tell a compelling story, advance a meta-plot, engage is exciting and challenging combat while completing so many side-quests is simply too much for the time frame required of a PFS scenario. That is why so many faction missions come off as bland and trivial. The writers are trying to stuff 70 cubic feet of material into a Bag of Holding Type 1. They simply do not have the time to give them all the love they deserve.

So while I love so many things about the Factions and could regale everyone with fun memories of Faction Missions, we simply need to prioritize and decide what is really important to pack into our scenarios. IMHO Faction Mission need to be cut. Or at least morphed into something else.

Ok, now suggestion time.

Let prestige be linked to a Primary and Secondary mission for each individual scenario. Eliminate faction missions entirely as a mechanic and let the inter-faction rivalry rest int he hands of the meta-plot. Since Prestige is already tracked by faction, let this be a tool for the Powers that Be in developing future scenarios. I would love to see a quarterly blog post that helps to outline what is going on. Maybe int he form of a underground publication within the society. A gossip rag, so to speak. Maybe published by an unknown author. (Maybe Shadow Lodge remnants still fighting against the Decemvirate?)

Now to keep the flavor of the Factions, I would love to see a greatly expanded list of uses for Prestige. Link these purchases more closely with the Factions. Give us unique and flavorful options that are different to each Faction. And don't be afraid to have some very nice mechanical effects. With a large list of options Prestige will quickly become a precious commodity. So make these purchases meaningful and they will add flavor and depth to the factions.

Ok enough typing for now. How reads long posts anyway? Hope I have provided food for thought.

[LazarX]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Funky Badger wrote:

The characters are meant to be Pathfinders first and foremost, faction agents second.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm afraid of seeing happen.

I don't know if I am alone in this, but being an instrument of pillage and murder for ten masked entities is pretty depressing. The Decemvirate have done very little if anything to inspire loyalty in their soldiers, while they continually amass more and more of the world's magical items. The Hao Jin Tapestry, especially if they succeed at unlocking the power to connect the Grand Lodge to anywhere on Golarion, would arguably become the most powerful magical item ever known, in that it would be an infinite-use, infinite-range teleportation effect. That right there would vastly increase the Decemvirate's military and economic power, granting potential for trade and conquest unseen in the rest of Golarion. And we don't even know what they want, beyond, as we know, more power.

That's a bit of an unfair call for the following reasons.

1. The Society does not send you on murder hobo missions. They send you to gather artifacts and occasionally to put a check on groups that really are in the rape and pillage of precious sites, such as the Aspis. The fact that you do wind up in combat is part of the unfortunate world you live in. And occasionally they send you to stop some very serious threats such as the occaisonal rising Runelord. Quite frankly if anyone is of the murderous bent, it's the Andorans. And they're supposed to be the good guys!

2. There is no sign that the Society is planning on opening up the Hao Jin tapestry as a form of commercial mass transit. More than likely they'll keep reserving it's use to it's agents as they are now. The last thing they want to do is to start flaunting overt power in a world where many fear and hate them as it is. The Society fields archaeologists, not armies.

[Netopalis]

Welcome aboard the Hao Jin Tapestry.....next stop, Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment, with connecting bus service to Muckmouth Caverns. This is the Diamond Line, terminating in Varisia. Mind the gap.

[Mike Lindner]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Honestly, the only real issue I have is with GM skill level. Even with the faction mission stated out directly, I have seem GM screw things up royal. Like forgetting to tell a faction where one of the item they need is...or forgetting an NPC that is faction vital as just some guy over there. I shutter to think what would happen when the optional goal is even MORE vague. I'm okay with the whole table works on one extra side quest deal as it makes things a whole lot easier...but I think the players really should know ahead of time what the extra side quest actually is and not some vague do something over there somewhere.

The problem is that GMs have to juggle telling the main story along with keeping 10 additional side missions in their head that may only have a few lines of text describing them. People can only keep 3-7 things in their head at one time. In a PFS scenario most if not all of those are usually already taken up with the various points of the main story. With this change the GM just focuses on the main story and possibly one or two faction missions that are tied to it. Since all the objectives will be related it should be much easier for GMs to keep the necessary details fresh in their minds. I think this will improve the play experience noticeably.

I hope the requirements to earn the secondary prestige point are not revealed to the players. Keep in mind the description of what will earn the second prestige point - it's not some side quest unrelated to the main mission that you have to guess at blindly. It's going above and beyond to show that you are a capable, motivated Pathfinder Society field agent; that is, that you are deserving of prestige and acclaim for going above and beyond. That you aren't just following orders but thinking and looking out for the greater interests of the society and your fellow field agents. At least that's how I understood it and hope it will work. Prestige and fame aren't something a person gains to great extent by doing the minimum amount of work necessary - not on Earth and I hope not on Golarion.

Overall, I think this new prestige system will encourage players to be more creative and more engaged, and have more of a say in how scenarios play out.

[Fromper]

I'll toss in my two silver's worth (inflation).

I agree that some of the faction missions we've seen in the past have been annoyingly specific things sent by omniscient faction leaders, and they tend to derail the main mission as people constantly ask if they spot the teapot or the woman with the hidden broach. I think we can all agree that eliminating generic "find the MacGuffin" type of faction missions, or at least limiting their frequency, is mostly a good thing.

And the season 4 faction goals as a way of replacing them is a step in a good direction, I think. But I really dislike how those have been implemented in season 4. I have characters in every faction now. I had 7 or 8 when season 4 started. I don't remember what all those seasonal faction goals are, and I almost always forget to use them when playing season 4 scenarios. The communication of getting a letter at the start of the season might be a fun one time thing, but expecting us to remember the details and use them in game 6 months later just doesn't work. I need a reminder at the start of my current session, or it just isn't happening.

Which brings me to my main point. I think having seasonal goals along the lines of the season 4 goals is a good idea, but I don't want to see faction handouts in every adventure go away. How about a compromise? Give us faction handouts in every scenario, which lets everyone (especially new players) have a steady connection to their faction leader, and helps with immersion in the faction system. But instead of specific "find the MacGuffin" missions, those handouts can just be reminders of the overall faction goals, both generally and seasonal, maybe with relevant scenario-specific information as appropriate.

For instance, Andorans would be reminded every scenario to free any slaves they meet, even if there aren't any in that specific scenario. Or if they're in a city where slavery is legal and common, they may need to be told not be overzealous, because they could get themselves in trouble. Silver Crusaders would be reminded to be kind to strangers, not kill anyone unless they have to, and help keep their party alive (all three of which are specific Silver Crusade missions I've gotten in the past), even if there's not something specific in that scenario that ties into those things. And there would also be reminders about the season-specific goals. If the member of the faction happened to find a way to advance of their faction specific stuff in a scenario, then they could earn their second prestige that way. Otherwise, they could still get it just by being a good Pathfinder, as proposed by the campaign leadership in the blog and podcast. More options is a good thing, especially if players don't actually know which option will be available in a specific scenario, so they have to get creative and really think.

Also, one thing I didn't like that was mentioned in the podcast last week was that the change to the faction missions would be retroactive, so people playing season 0-4 scenarios would no longer get the faction missions for those scenarios. I don't like that, either. While some of the older ones are mildly weird or annoying, there are also a lot of fun, memorable moments in those older faction missions. Who here can't look back on "I do this for Taldor!" and laugh? Anyone who played The Disappeared with a Silver Crusader at the table got to see them practically fall over laughing as they read their faction mission. And in some cases, the faction missions actually did tie in very closely to the main storyline (Qadira and Taldor missions in The Dalsine Affair, I'm looking at you). Do we want new players of those scenarios to miss out on those moments? I'd rather keep the bad with the good and keep all the older faction missions, rather than throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Mattastrophic]

Fromper wrote:

Also, one thing I didn't like that was mentioned in the podcast last week was that the change to the faction missions would be retroactive, so people playing season 0-4 scenarios would no longer get the faction missions for those scenarios.

Holy cow, seriously? That's a really bad change for those seasons!

Joko PO wrote:

The primary problem with Faction Mission is one of time. Time is a precious resource for a PFS scenario. Trying to tell a compelling story, advance a meta-plot, engage is exciting and challenging combat while completing so many side-quests is simply too much for the time frame required of a PFS scenario.

That reminds me...

Why does there need to be so much combat in scenarios anyways? Has anyone considered reducing the number of fights per scenario to make room for, well, other stuff?

But that's a side-concern. Let's wait and hear Mr. Compton; what will happen is likely to be much better than we are speculating.

-Matt

[CRobledo]

From the podcast, the current thinking is that GMs can if they wish print out and distribute the factions missions for flavor, but it would not have a bearing on the fame and prestige earned. But if the GM doesn't want to waste all that ink or keep track of handouts, then they can just ignore them.

If possible, they would like to have a document that details for all old scenarios what would qualify as the "secondary mission" that would grant you the second PP. All the GM would have to do is have a copy of this document at hand.

Once again, this is only the current thinking and may change in the next ~6 months...

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

You know what I'm not going to miss about faction missions?

How godawfully arbitrary they are.

Last night I played

Fortune's Blight:

and got the Andoran mission, which required that I find a book--easily done--and pass a DC 20 Linguistics check so that I could understand it myself and report to the faction head the minute I got back to Absalom, despite the fact that I was bringing him the book which could then be read by, I dunno, people who aren't morons like my Paladin?

Or how about whichever mission had to bring back the Harpy feathers? Dude needed a DC 25 Knowledge Nature to PLUCK SOME FEATHERS OFF THE THING. Give me a BREAK.

The inflexibility of GMs in interpreting these is also problematic. I remember on the boards here someone complaining about

Penumbral Accords:

which required one faction to pick up a tea cup from a museum display. But apparently this tea cup is SO FRAGILE that it requires a DC 15 Sleight of Hand check to pick up. But then once it's in your possession, it's fine, it can just be tossed in a pouch or whatever. And her GM wouldn't let her pick it up without SOH, then cast Mending, which would result in THE EXACT SAME THING.

TL;DR: I am all for faction handouts. But if we're going to keep them, let's get rid of this idea of throwing a dart at a board for a skill, rolling 3d10 for difficulty, and then coming up with some flavor text to fit it.

[Mark Moreland]

You are free to disagree with campaign staff and express your frustration with the direction of the campaign, but use of profanity, even filtered, is not acceptable.

[Joko PO]

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

stuff

I understand your point that many of the Faction missions area a little too "forced". I think it is an unavoidable problem when a writer is forced to shoehorn 10 side quests (quasi-skill challenges) into the time frame of a PFS scenario. That well dries up very quickly.

[Chris Mortika]

I've stated previously that the faction missions in the Golden Serpent and Green Market finally got me excited about the Sczarni faction. There are little gems here and there, outlining potential story seeds or character hooks.

I sincerely hope that the change in faction missions is not retroactive. It would be a shame for players to lose those hooks.

"Murder on the Throaty Mermaid" without faction missions falls pretty flat. The first half of "Immortal Conundrum" without faction missions is hardly worth the bother.

[Chalk Microbe]

Mark Moreland wrote:

You are free to disagree with campaign staff and express your frustration with the direction of the campaign, but use of profanity, even filtered, is not acceptable.

Sigh. Well I wish I could remember exactly what I wrote.

Lets see if I can remember...

--+--
re: no more faction missions

Is that true? That's really stupid. And what's even worse is that none of this info is available anywhere else but youtube.

Also, what in the bloody hell is the point of having a profanity filter if you don't let it do its work?

[Jim Groves]

Chris Mortika wrote:

I've stated previously that the faction missions in the Golden Serpent and Green Market finally got me excited about the Sczarni faction. There are little gems here and there, outlining potential story seeds or character hooks.

I sincerely hope that the change in faction missions is not retroactive. It would be a shame for players to lose those hooks.

Thanks Chris, I stumbled upon this thread by accident. It is nice to read.

They were intended to get people's attention and inspire the Development Team to consider future scenarios. I also wanted to demonstrate the Sczarni as doing something meaningful with their international connections.

So, I felt the best way to give the Sczarni a meaningful faction mission was to direct them outward at a third-party foe. If they could defeat this enemy, it would further their faction goals.

Basically the missions were an internal sub-plot I was sliding in there, which I hoped could be later realized in a proper scenario. Not an easter egg I was slipping past MArk, but a possible plot-hook to be picked up on. At the same time they're open ended enough to just set aside.

Feel free to advocate future development of those missions! They belong to the Campaign, not to me. :)

Heh. If I don't get a big project this summer, I might ask for a scenario myself.

[John Compton]

Alright, I can see where many of you are coming from in favor of or against particular features of factions as they operate now and how they will operate--at least based on what has been publicly revealed. As we outline and develop Season 5's scenarios, we will be keeping in mind people's concerns and working to avoid some of the pitfalls that you have brought up. Change can be unsettling, but the campaign staffers are players and GMs who have grown to love the factions, too; before instituting changes, we carefully consider how faction loyalists and the campaign at large will respond. I think you'll like how it turns out.

That said, a number of Season 5 scenarios are already in the pipeline, and the largest changes pretty well set. The smaller details are more open to adjustment.

I will briefly comment on a few concerns and comments made.

There will be a lack of exposure to one's faction leader.
Quality over quantity, and even then that does not mean a lack of quantity

People will only play characters of the relevant faction(s) in a mission because the special rewards are geared towards those PCs. I will need a character of every faction.
There are good reasons for a non-faction PC to play in faction-related scenarios.

Pathfinders are Pathfinders first and faction agents second.
This has been the case in the eyes of the society.

Players will not have a good enough understanding of what their faction goals are or how to accomplish them, leading to the chasing of red herrings and tilting at windmills.
Addressing this as I assign and develop scenarios is important to me. My aim is not to unnecessarily obfuscate faction goals.

It's going to be hard for new players to get involved.
Understood. I'll keep this in mind as I assign and develop scenarios.

The faction missions in Seasons 0–4 will no longer exist.
Oh?

[Mekkis]

I'm sure this has come up before, but it seems that during season 0 and season 1, there was a lot of secrecy as far as factions - and faction missions - are concerned.

In the games I've played and run over the last year or so, all of this has gone away - to the point where players are sharing their faction missions with each other the minute they leave the briefing room, and are asking the other players to "look away" if they need to do their 'secret' faction mission (in the few recent scenarios that have them).

It makes the actual faction you choose feel trivial and cheap, and strains the ability to really identify with the faction.

Should something improve this, I think it will make factions more meaningful, and PFS more enjoyable.

[Cold Napalm]

Actually, with the secondary mission being hidden from players, I cann see this scenario happening...

Players: can I use x,y,z skill now? Nope...okay how about now? Now? Oh now?

Because seriously, with the whole vague mission of season 0 and 1, that is basically what players do to get factions missions done. It's QUITE unfun actually. And your talking about even MORE vague so...yeah I can see this being an issue.

[Chalk Microbe]

John Compton wrote:

The faction missions in Seasons 0–4 will no longer exist.

Oh?

Thank you for addressing this rumor.

[Netopalis]

I do hope that there is more exposure to faction heads in the future. The Silver Crusade faction leader is entirely nonexistant, aside from her appearance in First Steps. Colson Maldris, too, hasn't been showing up that much lately.

[Belladonna Blayze of Andoran]

Alot of faction missions have asked players to do some very questionable things. I used to play Living Arcanis and they had secret factions in them. Unlike Pathfinder however, many secret faction requests in Living Arcanis created some very tangible player versus player conflict potential. The rules stated that players could not attack players but some of the positions they put players in made it implausible NOT to have a player attack another player. I like Pathfinder faction missions because they really for the most part avoid this problem. I despise Cheliax but faction missions never or rarely pit me in a hostile manner against a fellow Cheliax PC which I am very happy about. Hopefully this change is not taken to an extreme.

[Iammars]

Netopalis wrote:

I do hope that there is more exposure to faction heads in the future. The Silver Crusade faction leader is entirely nonexistant, aside from her appearance in First Steps.

Nope.

Spoiler:

4-10 Feast of Sigils

[Netopalis]

Iammars wrote:

Netopalis wrote:

I do hope that there is more exposure to faction heads in the future. The Silver Crusade faction leader is entirely nonexistant, aside from her appearance in First Steps.

Nope.

** spoiler omitted **

Oh. Huh.

[Fromper]

Chalk Microbe wrote:

John Compton wrote:

The faction missions in Seasons 0–4 will no longer exist.

Oh?

Thank you for addressing this rumor.

????

This isn't what we were told in the podcast.

[CRobledo]

Fromper wrote:

This isn't what we were told in the podcast.

as they have mentioned in other threads, what they said in the podcast is all things they are considering, nothing is final. Things may change between now and gencon.

[Mike Lindner]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Actually, with the secondary mission being hidden from players, I cann see this scenario happening...

Players: can I use x,y,z skill now? Nope...okay how about now? Now? Oh now?

Because seriously, with the whole vague mission of season 0 and 1, that is basically what players do to get factions missions done. It's QUITE unfun actually. And your talking about even MORE vague so...yeah I can see this being an issue.

This seems to be the biggest misunderstanding with the new way prestige will work. The description and example provided in the podcast describes the second prestige point being tied to the Pathfinder Society's objective(s), not each PC's faction objectives. The second PP will be for groups that go above and beyond the basic objective provided by the venture captain. The only time specific faction objectives will come into play is for certain scenarios where it makes sense and even then we don't know whether that will affect prestige for members of that faction (or other factions for that matter).

So for example, your mission is to rescue a missing Pathfinder. You do that successfully. But as it turns out there are three more Pathfinders that were kidnapped as well. If you talk to the rescued agent, follow up on the information, and rescue the other three agents, then you will get the second prestige point. If you just cart him back to the venture captain without ever bothering to ask what happened to him or just fail in rescuing the other three agents, then you won't get the additional prestige.

Fromper wrote:

Chalk Microbe wrote:

John Compton wrote:

The faction missions in Seasons 0–4 will no longer exist.

Oh?

Thank you for addressing this rumor.

????

This isn't what we were told in the podcast.

No one said faction missions won't exist for old scenarios. What was said is that they will be optional. So, the GM may still hand them out, but the players could still then just ignore them and still have the possibility of getting 2 PP since the second prestige point will no longer depend on the faction mission.