No.
The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round
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No.
The core rules assume that you're a humanoid creature and you only have two "limbs" to attack with each round if you're using the "fighting with two weapons" option. It doesn't matter if you're making a headbutt and a punch, or a kick and a punch, or 2 kicks, or 2 punches, you're just making two attacks per round. At no time would you ever be able to justify a BAB +0 creature with no natural weapons making 2 punches AND 2 kicks per round
The intent was to prevent you from making a full attack sequence with your natural attacks and a bunch of unarmed strikes by specifically defining your undefined unarmed strikes as conveniently different limbs than your natural attacks. Which is exactly what you're trying to do.
In this case, we have an eidolon with 4 claw attacks on 4 different limbs. There is no mixing between natural attacks and iterative attacks, which is what SKR is talking about there. The number of natural attacks that an eidolon is allowed to use is specifically based on his level and the number of attacks he owns.
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Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.
Yes, an eidolon can get 4 attacks at level 4. He will still have a lower DPR than a berserker with a decent weapon. Toss in DR 5 and he'll be lucky to inflict an average of more than 1-2 damage per hit.
At level 4 an eidolon's claws will be hitting for 1d6+3, with the improved damage and strength evolutions. To-hit Bonus will be +7 with weapon focus.
A Barbarian could be swinging for 2d6+13 with a +13 to-hit bonus (weapon focus + masterwork greatsword).
Eidolon: .55(6.5) + .05(.55)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 15.015
Barbarian: .85(20) + .1(.85)(20) = 18.7
I can't believe I haven't gotten any attention to this or everyone is digging through there books to find out. So far I don't think it's against the rules, but I was wondering?
Post time of 2 AM (my time). Most of the forum users are asleep at that time.
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Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.
Yes, an eidolon can get 4 attacks at level 4. He will still have a lower DPR than a berserker with a decent weapon. Toss in DR 5 and he'll be lucky to inflict an average of more than 1-2 damage per hit.
At level 4 an eidolon's claws will be hitting for 1d6+3, with the improved damage and strength evolutions. To-hit Bonus will be +7 with weapon focus.
A Barbarian could be swinging for 2d6+13 with a +13 to-hit bonus (weapon focus + masterwork greatsword).
Eidolon: .55(6.5) + .05(.55)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 15.015
Barbarian: .85(20) + .1(.85)(20) = 18.7
You are forgetting "against AC 20".
Make it AC 25 an you get
Eidolon: .30(6.5) + .05(.30)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 8.19
Barbarian: .60(20) + .1(.60)(20) = 13.2
AC 15 and you get
Eidolon: .80(6.5) + .05(.80)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 21.84
Barbarian: .95(20) + .1(.95)(20) = 20.9
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I don't really believe that Synthesist are broken.Yes, Eidolons are broken. No, most of the things that people use to break them are not legal. Yes, you get 4 attacks at full attack bonus at 4th level. It's that sick.
Yes, an eidolon can get 4 attacks at level 4. He will still have a lower DPR than a berserker with a decent weapon. Toss in DR 5 and he'll be lucky to inflict an average of more than 1-2 damage per hit.
At level 4 an eidolon's claws will be hitting for 1d6+3, with the improved damage and strength evolutions. To-hit Bonus will be +7 with weapon focus.
A Barbarian could be swinging for 2d6+13 with a +13 to-hit bonus (weapon focus + masterwork greatsword).
Eidolon: .55(6.5) + .05(.55)(6.5) = 3.75375 * 4 = 15.015
Barbarian: .85(20) + .1(.85)(20) = 18.7
In a current game I'm running I have both a barbarian and a summoner, so I'm going to show their fifth level builds over their fourth level. I'm also going to use his old eidolon build before we decided it was ridiculous.
Dex: 14
Con: 15
Int: 7
Wis:12
Cha:10
BAB: +5
Masterwork Nodachi
Feats: Power Attack, Raging Vitality, Comabt Reflexes, Extra Rage Power
Rage Powers: Reckless Abandon, Supersition, Lesser Beast Totoem
Raging Attack(always power attacking): +12 1d10 +15
Eidolon-Biped
Stats:
Strength 18
Dex:14
Con:13
Int:7
Wis:10
Cha:11
Evolutions:
Free: Claws, Arms, Legs
Arms (2)
Claws(1)
Increased Damage(1)
Wings(2)
Imp natural armor (1)
Reach (1)
Feats:Power Attack, Weapon Focus Claws
Attacks: 4x +7 1d6+ 8 each
In addition to this, the summoner often uses haste and lesser evolution surge. The surge he uses on elemental damage for a non-resisted element or vulnerability.
While the barbarian has a better to hit and single hit damage, the eidolon/summoner is a lot more versatile, especially in skills and spells, is much more powerful buffed, and when the two flank the eidolon has a very solid to-hit the brings it's damage up more than the barbarian's.
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I am not sure how you get a +13 to attack and a +13 to damage for the barbarian. A strength bonus of +7 only gives a +10 to damage and power attack would add +6.
1. Your right. the barbarian should have been +14 to-hit and 2d6+16 on damage, putting him even further ahead of the eidolon. I missed adding in furious focus and the extra +3 damage.
2. Elemental Rage: barbarians can add energy damage too.
3. Should I add in the barbarians secondary natural attacks? Lesser Beast totem says I have claws on my feet and animal fury says I have a bite attack. I even qualify for multi-attack.
4. a 4th level eidolon has a BAB of 3, you'll only be getting +2 damage while using it. I did include weapon focus as one of the eidolons two feats. With the lower to-hit bonus, power attacks would not increase damage vs most opponents for a low level eidolon.
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I am not sure how you get a +13 to attack and a +13 to damage for the barbarian. A strength bonus of +7 only gives a +10 to damage and power attack would add +6.
1. Your right. the barbarian should have been +14 to-hit and 2d6+16 on damage, putting him even further ahead of the eidolon. I missed adding in furious focus and the extra +3 damage.
2. Elemental Rage: barbarians can add energy damage too.
3. Should I add in the barbarians secondary natural attacks? Lesser Beast totem says I have claws on my feet and animal fury says I have a bite attack. I even qualify for multi-attack.
4. a 4th level eidolon has a BAB of 3, you'll only be getting +2 damage while using it. I did include weapon focus as one of the eidolons two feats. With the lower to-hit bonus, power attacks would not increase damage vs most opponents for a low level eidolon.
The claws for beast totem are actually on your hands. Elemental rage is generally sub-optimal and costs two rage powers, not to mention being minimum 8th level, and animal fury is weaker too since it gets a low to hit and alf damage pretty much, and is even weaker against a creature with DR. The build the barbarian is aiming at is the beast totem/superstition chain AM Barbarian does. I was recording their two fifth level builds for this, since that's the level they're currently at and thus the more easily accessed builds. I don't think that our point of which class is better should be made if there is a significant one level gap that is also not compared.
EDIT: I'll admit, where the claws are are a bit unclear but its generally accepted to be on the hands. The eidolon getting claws on its feet was added to give quadrupeds a claw option while staying with their theme.
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EDIT: I'll admit, where the claws are are a bit unclear but its generally accepted to be on the hands. The eidolon getting claws on its feet was added to give quadrupeds a claw option while staying with their theme.
With Quadrupeds I have no issues with claws on the feet.
With Bipeds I do. However, if you are going to allow biped eidolons with foot claws, you have to allow them for the barbarians as well.
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EDIT: I'll admit, where the claws are are a bit unclear but its generally accepted to be on the hands. The eidolon getting claws on its feet was added to give quadrupeds a claw option while staying with their theme.With Quadrupeds I have no issues with claws on the feet.
With Bipeds I do. However, if you are going to allow biped eidolons with foot claws, you have to allow them for the barbarians as well.
He did buy an extra arms evolution so the build had four arms.
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Once again, the problem is people mis building the eidolon. It is clearly in print, you cannot even -take- an evolution that brings you over the max attacks allowed. So... claw/claw/bite is the best until 4,
We were discussing level 4 builds ......
And, at low levels multiple attack rolls usually trump mass damage, as 10-12 points kills it either way, 2d6 +13 and 3x 1d6+5 (usually 2 out of 3 hit) means one enemy a round dies either way. The summoner just gets to roll more dice, while the barb says "does my roll hit? he dies."
My play experience has been just the opposite. With a much lower to-hit bonus I find my eidolon tends to wound opponents but seldom eliminates them.
At level 4, the level we are talking about, 2d6+16 is not a 100% kill. Some opponents will have 40-50 hit points.
Claw/claw/bite is a bad idea. Why? becouse for a bite attack you need a head, witch alone cost 2 evolution point. So a ttal of 3 evolution point for an extra attack. Get more damage for the claw instead.
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Claw/claw/bite is a bad idea. Why? becouse for a bite attack you need a head, witch alone cost 2 evolution point. So a ttal of 3 evolution point for an extra attack. Get more damage for the claw instead.
Eidolons start with a head.
The evolution is for adding extras.
The head evolution is not even in the APG, it was added with the UMG.
I'm not sure if this is addressed else where but since this thread is getting so much traffic right now and it's along the same lines I'll ask.
Does the Feat: Augment Summoning effect the Eidolons ?
That make's sense it seemed that if it was able to be applied to the Class Ability it would be a bit overpowered especialy if using the Synthesist Archtype