So I'm running a game and my players are now level 12. The mage recently chose this spell to his list.
Am I reading this wrong? Does everyone touched gain 150 points of DR 10/adamantine?
And if so, does anyone else think this is too powerful? Sure, it only works against physical damage, but I recently ran them through Halls of the Frost Giant Jarl and they took almost no damage, save from the Winter Wolves and Cryohydra's breath weapons. Am I just DMing poorly for this? I understand that that module is intended for a 4-man group of lvl 9 players. But nevertheless, at one point they had 3 frost giants, 3 ogres and 5 winter wolves on them, and we're only a 3-man group and I saw no true fear of anyone dying due to this spell's amazing protection.
Can someone help me out with this?
Stoneskin
School abjuration; Level alchemist 4, druid 5, inquisitor 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3; Domain earth 6, strength 6; Bloodline abyssal 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (granite and diamond dust worth 250 gp)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 10 min./level or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION
The warded creature gains resistance to blows, cuts, stabs, and slashes. The subject gains DR 10/adamantine. It ignores the first 10 points of damage each time it takes damage from a weapon, though an adamantine weapon bypasses the reduction. Once the spell has prevented a total of 10 points of damage per caster level (maximum 150 points), it is discharged.
Stoneskin, Communal
School abjuration; Level alchemist 5, druid 6, inquisitor 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (granite and diamond dust worth 100 gp per creature affected)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target creatures touched
Duration 10 min./level or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions like stoneskin, except you divide the duration in 10 minute intervals among the creatures touched. Once the spell has prevented 10 points of damage per caster level (maximum 150 points) for a subject, the spell’s effects end for that subject.
1) The wizard is 12th level? That means the spell gives 120 points of DR10/Adamantine.
2) Did you notice the duration (120 minutes) is divided amongst the 2 characters? That would mean it only lasts 40 minutes at a time and at 300 GP per casting that could get expensive.
It is a very powerful spell. You'll probably have to either throw in some extra giants or ogres to make combat a challenge for them (to whittle down the DR points). Or throw in some creatures that do non-physical damage (like enemy spell casters).
It's all about finding that balance where you aren't punishing them for using a good spell, but also giving them challenges that can't be defeated w/ a single defensive spell.
The giants don't have any +4 or adamantine weapons? They don't have anyone that can dispel? They don't have anyone capable of dealing more than 10 damage in a hit?
Thanks for responding, Strannik and MP. In this particular module, no. No adamantine weapons. And +4 or greater? Does +4 or greater negate the DR? I may be missing something.
As far as the spell lasting 120, yeah. That's an oversight by me, I mis-typed. But even at 40 minutes each that's still pretty rough.
But yeah, it WAS just a lvl 9 CR module. As a DM, I'm admittedly not great at running spellcaster enemies. Especially at this level. But I was just running the module in its original form, just with Pathfinder mobs instead of 3.5.
Thanks for the advice though. At 12th level the tank has a 30 AC, 34 vs. Giants since he's a dwarf. The other is a Cleric/Martial, so he's not terribly useful in damage dealing combat, but very useful as a support character.
A weapon of a +3 enhancement bonus counts as silver or cold iron for the purpose of bypassing DR. A weapon of +4 enhancement bonus counts as adamantine for the purpose of bypassing DR.
But to be honest, a party with a 12th level wizard present is playing whack a mole in a 9th level module.
VonZrucker wrote: But yeah, it WAS just a lvl 9 CR module. A level 12 character in a level 9 module? The lack of danger had nothing to do with Communal Stoneskin, that's for sure.
I'm surprised giants and ogre's weren't able to beat DR 10 with their 3d6+13 attacks (before power attack). My impression has always been that this was a really useful spell (especially against weaker foes in mass) but not really that good against the exact type of opponents you were fighting.
You relate your tank had an AC of 34 - maybe that had more to do with it?
Yeah, good points guys. This was really intended as a minor 1-night adventure simply for the players to establish a base of operations. Guys, is there a tool or something that makes it easy for me as a DM to scale up lower level CR mobs to higher lvl? For instance, say I had wanted to scale those CR 9 Frost Giants up to 12 to bring them on par?
AC 34 is really high, yeah. The dwarf is a knight, and doesn't deal much damage at all, but he was certainly keeping the giants busy with his challenges/shouts and whatnot.
34 is not a very high AC for level 12 (unless he is two handing the weapon, if it is armor and shield, it's rather low IMO).
I run a home campaign with 8 players so I have to re-write every encounter. Sometimes I'm lazy and just double the critters, but that rarely cuts it. More often I use Herolab to rebuild the monsters with templates or class levels. It's a great tool for the job, but by the time you've bought all the expansions so you can have access to all the rules, it is pretty pricey.
VonZrucker wrote: Yeah, good points guys. This was really intended as a minor 1-night adventure simply for the players to establish a base of operations. Guys, is there a tool or something that makes it easy for me as a DM to scale up lower level CR mobs to higher lvl? For instance, say I had wanted to scale those CR 9 Frost Giants up to 12 to bring them on par? Some of the simple templates - particularly advanced - might help some. To the best of my knowledge though there is no substitute for simply doing it yourself though. I know my poor GM has to rebuild virtually every encounter to deal with a sword and board with an 40+ AC and a two-hander who together dish out 300-400 damage a round (at 15th level).
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote: The giants don't have any +4 or adamantine weapons? They don't have anyone that can dispel? They don't have anyone capable of dealing more than 10 damage in a hit? I really had to laugh at those questions. Were you joking around or not taking into account what this would do to WBL?
No, no Magnus. They dealt more than 10 dmg, yes. When they hit. Eventually I put up my dm shield and started fudging rolls because they simply weren't connecting with the Dwarf. The Wizard was flying and had Improved Invisibility going, and the Martial/Cleric had a couple summoned monsters up in front of the giants and was buffing/debuffing and using his auras.
In this module, even the final "boss," the Frost Giant Jarl which was a Cleric 5 on top of his monster levels couldn't dispel the stone skin of the 12th level wizard. Not to mention for some reason he only had a +1 Greataxe.
As far as Wealth By Level goes... I'm not sure what you mean. I was going by the module. If I'm running a module, I don't typically increase what the mobs have per the module. In this case I suppose I should have.
I think Communal Stoneskin, with its short duration if split up a bunch, is actually most powerful on the NPCs, who tend to have some influence or knowledge of roughly when a fight will actually happen. Just imagine a 12th level NPC caster giving a group of 11 NPCs and himself this spell before the party barges in...
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VonZrucker wrote: No, no Magnus. They dealt more than 10 dmg, yes. When they hit. Eventually I put up my dm shield and started fudging rolls because they simply weren't connecting with the Dwarf. The Wizard was flying and had Improved Invisibility going, and the Martial/Cleric had a couple summoned monsters up in front of the giants and was buffing/debuffing and using his auras.
In this module, even the final "boss," the Frost Giant Jarl which was a Cleric 5 on top of his monster levels couldn't dispel the stone skin of the 12th level wizard. Not to mention for some reason he only had a +1 Greataxe.
As far as Wealth By Level goes... I'm not sure what you mean. I was going by the module. If I'm running a module, I don't typically increase what the mobs have per the module. In this case I suppose I should have.
I was actually responding to the suggestion of mplindustries to equip the giants with adamantine weapons or +4 weapons, which would just crush the WBL balance when the party inevitably loots those weapons and sells them.
As for the problem you are having, it doesn't seem so much with the DR 10/adamantine which Stoneskin provides, but with the fact that giants are really poor opponents if the players are smart enough to use flying, invisibility and the other stuff you mentioned against them. Your players simply know how to optimize well. So maybe it is time to bust out monsters which are a few CRs better than what you just put up and have more special abilities.
Also, if your player of a dwarf character has an untouchable AC, check if his CMD is also as high. Normally attacking with combat maneuvers can help a lot to circumvent player characters who are all about the untouchable AC. Just happened in my Jade Regent campaign, where the Cleric has managed to get his AC up to 37+ if he has one round to buff, but has a horrible CMD.
magnuskn wrote: VonZrucker wrote: No, no Magnus. They dealt more than 10 dmg, yes. When they hit. Eventually I put up my dm shield and started fudging rolls because they simply weren't connecting with the Dwarf. The Wizard was flying and had Improved Invisibility going, and the Martial/Cleric had a couple summoned monsters up in front of the giants and was buffing/debuffing and using his auras.
In this module, even the final "boss," the Frost Giant Jarl which was a Cleric 5 on top of his monster levels couldn't dispel the stone skin of the 12th level wizard. Not to mention for some reason he only had a +1 Greataxe.
As far as Wealth By Level goes... I'm not sure what you mean. I was going by the module. If I'm running a module, I don't typically increase what the mobs have per the module. In this case I suppose I should have.
I was actually responding to the suggestion of mplindustries to equip the giants with adamantine weapons or +4 weapons, which would just crush the WBL balance when the party inevitably loots those weapons and sells them.
As for the problem you are having, it doesn't seem so much with the DR 10/adamantine which Stoneskin provides, but with the fact that giants are really poor opponents if the players are smart enough to use flying, invisibility and the other stuff you mentioned against them. Your players simply know how to optimize well. So maybe it is time to bust out monsters which are a few CRs better than what you just put up and have more special abilities.
Also, if your player of a dwarf character has an untouchable AC, check if his CMD is also as high. Normally attacking with combat maneuvers can help a lot to circumvent player characters who are all about the untouchable AC. Just happened in my Jade Regent campaign, where the Cleric has managed to get his AC up to 37+ if he has one round to buff, but has a horrible CMD. 1. Who are you going to sell the weapons too?
2. Fighter's CMDs usually exceed their ACs.
3. Dwarf could have got over 40 AC vs. Giants if he was really trying.
4. Of course a 5th level caster will have trouble dispelling a 12th level caster.
If that spell also had a rider saying that it absorbs 10 points per caster level of damage from all the recipients that take damage it would be more balanced.
By that I mean, a 12th level caster's communal stoneskin absorbs 120 points of damage, then poofs. It doesn't matter whether it is spread among the recipients or all on one target.
As it reads now I'd say it is unbalanced.
Makes the Broodmaster more interesting actually. He has a bunch of tiny indestructible men.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Funky Badger wrote: 1. Who are you going to sell the weapons too?
2. Fighter's CMDs usually exceed their ACs.
3. Dwarf could have got over 40 AC vs. Giants if he was really trying.
4. Of course a 5th level caster will have trouble dispelling a 12th level caster.
1.) At 12th level you can get very creative with Plane Shift as to where you go to sell stuff your loot. Also, I'd rather not know what the material cost is of large/huge weapons made of adamantine.
2.) "Usually" doesn't mean always. And attacking CMB is pretty applicable for a lots of other classes, too.
3.) Yep. So? Was I advocating "get giants with more base attack"?
4.) Where did I talk about dispelling?
magnuskn wrote: Funky Badger wrote: 1. Who are you going to sell the weapons too?
2. Fighter's CMDs usually exceed their ACs.
3. Dwarf could have got over 40 AC vs. Giants if he was really trying.
4. Of course a 5th level caster will have trouble dispelling a 12th level caster.
1.) At 12th level you can get very creative with Plane Shift as to where you go to sell stuff your loot. Also, I'd rather not know what the material cost is of large/huge weapons made of adamantine.
2.) "Usually" doesn't mean always. And attacking CMB is pretty applicable for a lots of other classes, too.
3.) Yep. So? Was I advocating "get giants with more base attack"?
4.) Where did I talk about dispelling? You attack CMD, not CMB. And a fighter would have to be trying really hard (or have an extremely magical shield) not to have CMD > AC.
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