ok...In that case he may have to give up some part of his concept to make this work mechanically.
We moved on to how to build a wizard I think.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I don't understand how this went from "no casting, so Bard is out" to "F** it, let's just go wizard."
But whatever.
I believe that was my exact thought process.
Just take a freakin BARD already! it has the skills you want and the abilities you want.No.
How many times do I have to say it? The bard is a slick class, but does not fit any of the current character concepts I have at the moment.
Look, just to show you that I didn't dismiss the bard out of hand, here is the bard build I made before starting this thread.17 12 14 14 7 14 half-orc Bard
Perform(Act,Oratory),Intimidate,UMD,Perception,Stealth,Acrobatics,Knowledge
1 :Arcane Strike ||0th:Prestidigitation,Read-Magic,Ghost-Sound,Mage-Hand|1st:Silent-Image,Cu re-Light-Wounds|
2 : ||0th:Message|1st:Grease|
3 :Power Attack ||0th:Mending|1st:Disguise-Self|
4 : ||2nd:Invisibility,Silence|
5 :Cleave ||2nd:Mirror-Image|
6 : ||2nd:Pyrotechnics|
7 :Great Cleave ||1st:Feather-Fall|3rd:Major-Image,Haste|
8 : ||3rd:Good-Hope|
9 :Toughness ||3rd:Slow|
10: ||2nd:Cure-Moderate-Wounds|4th:Dimension-Door,Dominate-Person|
11:Improved Critical(falchion)||4th:Invisibility-Greater|
12: ||4th:Freedom-of-Movement|
Power Attack? Great Cleave? On a BARD?! Whoof, I would so hate to see a PC like that in game. No offense, but it reminds me of Frankenstein's Monster, Adam.
Oh well. I give up.
Melee bards actually do pretty well, since the buff spells and Bardic Performance make up for the 3/4 BAB.
You get more mileage out of hi dexterity, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus on a rapier than you do with high strength and the like.
Then your damage goes way down. Who needs AC when you have mirror image and Greater-Invisibility?
If you go with high dex and an Agile weapon you get dex to damage instead of strength to damage. You can also take Piranha Strike(power attack for dex based characters). That way you still do decent damage.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Then your damage goes way down. Who needs AC when you have mirror image and Greater-Invisibility?
You mean other then those two don't stack...what you want is mirror image and displacement.
That said, PFS has the field guide agile enhancement as part of core assumption...so really dex kinda rocks. The bad part is that you need at least a +2 weapon which is 27 fame which is about level 6 if you complete all your faction missions. So basically half your career before you can start to do damage.
Then your damage goes way down. Who needs AC when you have mirror image and Greater-Invisibility?You mean other then those two don't stack...what you want is mirror image and displacement.
They don't have to stack. One replaces the other depending on the situation.
wheres the agile weapon enchantment?
Archaeologist bards are better at trapfinding and disabling than a rogue.
A bard with a bow can out damage a rogue. I think a melee bard can give him a run also. I am sure he does not beat the bard by a lot. Both can get in about 45 to 60 DPR for most players if they really want to hurt things.
|
|
They don't have to stack. One replaces the other depending on the situation.Then your damage goes way down. Who needs AC when you have mirror image and Greater-Invisibility?You mean other then those two don't stack...what you want is mirror image and displacement.
But mirror image and displacement DOES stack. Why choose either or when you can have BOTH mirror images and 50% miss chance.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agile doesn't give 1.5x dex. And you can't have it until halfway through your career as Cold Napalm admits. Piranha strike doesn't give 3:1 returns and I'm not even sure it's PFS legal: PFSRD calls the Sargava book a peripheral source. Going two handed you miss out on the rapier's crit range if that means using a longsword, but that's why Markthkus built a half-orc. A strength based bard power attacking with something he can put both hands on does non-smiting paladin level damage. That's in the martial pack even if at the back. The finesse bard isn't. The finesse bard is struggling along with the rogue and dex based monk for damage.
Agile doesn't give 1.5x damage true, but having a stat that does AC, to hit and damage is a pretty big deal. Piranha strike is legal for PFS...but does not work with a rapier anyways. It needs to be a light weapon. A rapier while finessable is not a light weapon.
Archaeologist bards are better at trapfinding and disabling than a rogue.
A bard with a bow can out damage a rogue. I think a melee bard can give him a run also. I am sure he does not beat the bard by a lot. Both can get in about 45 to 60 DPR for most players if they really want to hurt things.
Only in a vacuum, as in with a stupid DM. While you are singing to yourself to beef up your Perception and Disable Device rolls, the bad guys in the next room will hear, and attack. Think about it.
As for out damaging a Rogue, I'd like to see the attempt. Just flanking with ye old Fighter and a Knife Master Rogue would blow that out of the water. That's not even counting various feats to beef that up. Put simply, Bards are not built to really dish out damage. You know, they're dabblers, not specialists.
How would you get a rogue to be able to hit anything? They are 3/4 and have no ways to improve their to-hit rolls. Weapon focus and scroll scoundrel can give a +3 to hit against opponents that hit you last round.
Archaeologist bards are better at trapfinding and disabling than a rogue.
A bard with a bow can out damage a rogue. I think a melee bard can give him a run also. I am sure he does not beat the bard by a lot. Both can get in about 45 to 60 DPR for most players if they really want to hurt things.
Only in a vacuum, as in with a stupid DM. While you are singing to yourself to beef up your Perception and Disable Device rolls, the bad guys in the next room will hear, and attack. Think about it.
As for out damaging a Rogue, I'd like to see the attempt. Just flanking with ye old Fighter and a Knife Master Rogue would blow that out of the water. That's not even counting various feats to beef that up. Put simply, Bards are not built to really dish out damage. You know, they're dabblers, not specialists.
Singing? Perception does not require singing. If you are speaking of using the perform skill, the bard is not actually performing, when the perform modifier is used in place of another skill. I don't even know if there is skill that replaces perception. I do know some of the perform modifiers replace acrobatics, stealth, and the social skills. If a GM incorrectly ruled that the perform skill required an actual performance then I would just actually use perception.
The rogue that does nonlethal damage(sap master) can do it. The knife master, which I would have to check out might be able to do it, but not the other rogue archetypes. A normal or archetype bard can keep up with them.
edit:I misunderstood what you meant with singing. The bard does not need to sing to boost his skills to bypass the rogue for perception and disable device. The archaeologist gets a bonus equal to half his level on all perception checks and disable device checks, not just traps. He also does not get the bardic performances, not that it mattered because Inspire Competence does not work on the bard.
A bard can't inspire competence in himself.
How would you get a rogue to be able to hit anything? They are 3/4 and have no ways to improve their to-hit rolls. Weapon focus and scroll scoundrel can give a +3 to hit against opponents that hit you last round.
Flanking for another +2, and if you can catch them flat footed that's usually an advantage (stealth, invisibility, feinting). If you are a rogue, no-one is expecting you to go toe-to-toe, one-on-one against foes.
How would you get a rogue to be able to hit anything? They are 3/4 and have no ways to improve their to-hit rolls. Weapon focus and scroll scoundrel can give a +3 to hit against opponents that hit you last round.
Sneak Attack makes up for it to a large extent. You do decent damage with a strength based build. Magic weapons helps as do ability score enhancers. If rogues had a higher AC and were better at skills I think they would be more likely to be chosen.
By better at skills I mean they could have special abilities such as having a talent that allowed them to use diplomacy to charm someone similar to charm person, but have it remain non-magical so they can bypass SR.
However that is not the case.
Thomas the question was how to get rogue to hit level appropriate AC. That is all I was responding to. I never said they had it has easy as everyone else. :)
How would you get a rogue to be able to hit anything? They are 3/4 and have no ways to improve their to-hit rolls. Weapon focus and scroll scoundrel can give a +3 to hit against opponents that hit you last round.
Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Finesse, Precise Strike, Outflank, weapon enchantment heartseeker. Want me to go on? That's just off the top of my head. There's also the Agile enchantment that amps damage.
How would you get a rogue to be able to hit anything? They are 3/4 and have no ways to improve their to-hit rolls. Weapon focus and scroll scoundrel can give a +3 to hit against opponents that hit you last round.Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Finesse, Precise Strike, Outflank, weapon enchantment heartseeker. Want me to go on? That's just off the top of my head. There's also the Agile enchantment that amps damage.
most of those are teamwork feats. Weapon finesse is a wash with just using your strength score. Gear is available to everyone and damage isn't the issue here. The rogue has trouble getting pluses to hit.
Is there anyway I don't end up more than plus 5 to hit behind the fighter by Lvl 12?
Fighter gets plus 4 from weapon training and weapon focus by lvl 12. They have an additional plus 3 from being full Bab. If the rogue is twoweapon fighting the fighter will have a plus 9 to hit over the rogue. His second attack will be plus 4 higher than the rogues best attack and his last attack the one that will probably miss is only one point lower than the rogues best attack. If the fighter uses power attack then he only has plus 5 over the rogue but gained plus 16 to damage per hit.
Damage is irrelevant if you can't hit anything.
Not to mention that the level of cooperation in your average group of PFS players makes a herd of cats look like one of Ceasars legions by comparison. If you're running up to thinks and beating on them thats no big deal. If you NEED your allies to flank with you then you're out of luck.
Not to mention that the level of cooperation in your average group of PFS players makes a herd of cats look like one of Ceasars legions by comparison. If you're running up to thinks and beating on them thats no big deal. If you NEED your allies to flank with you then you're out of luck.
also I feel like there is 0% chance that anyone would have your same teamwork feats that piccolo suggested.
How so Shain, and what does the rogue give up to get them?
edit:That bard is still a better overall scout, and once you beat DC 35 disable device by taking 10 it does not really matter that much anymore. Getting a +25 by level 10 can be done. The perception would be even higher.
edit2:That bard gets more than skill proficiency for traps..
Careful Disarm --The bard is not going to fail by 5 or more anyway if he cares to disable traps.
Trap Master-Most groups kill all enemies going forward, so this almost never comes up.
Just disable the trap, and keep going. Giving up uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge is not a bonus here.
You get rogues to hit level appropriate AC by taking another class. A ~50% rogue/cavalier or rogue/weaponmaster fighter split or possibly rogue/barbarian if you can stand to give up the higher prerequisite rage powers.
At which point you might as well just play the other class. Are you telling me there is no uber optimization way to get a rogue to have a to-hit bonus that is within 5 points of a fighter?
You get rogues to hit level appropriate AC by taking another class. A ~50% rogue/cavalier or rogue/weaponmaster fighter split or possibly rogue/barbarian if you can stand to give up the higher prerequisite rage powers.At which point you might as well just play the other class. Are you telling me there is no uber optimization way to get a rogue to have a to-hit bonus that is within 5 points of a fighter?
You can make a rogue who is on-par/close to being on-par with a fighter, but then what you've got is an odd-ball fighter with a tough time qualifying for feats. You don't even need to be badass at optimizing, just get your weapon focus feats when you can, put an 18 in strength (or dexterity if you really want,) and try to make the enemy lose their dex bonus as much as possible.
On the subject of skills, just the 8 you get is good enough. If you're going to go the skill-focus route, go human and take Focused Study instead of an extra feat (it will pay off at level 8.) It really is better to look into the extra +x bonuses to skills rather than getting high intelligence, as the extra points you get are limited by the "ranks =< level" rule.
At which point you might as well just play the other class. Are you telling me there is no uber optimization way to get a rogue to have a to-hit bonus that is within 5 points of a fighter?You can make a rogue who is on-par/close to being on-par with a fighter, but then what you've got is an odd-ball fighter with a tough time qualifying for feats. You don't even need to be badass at optimizing, just get your weapon focus feats when you can, put an 18 in strength (or dexterity if you really want,) and try to make the enemy lose their dex bonus as much as possible.
On the subject of skills, just the 8 you get is good enough. If you're going to go the skill-focus route, go human and take Focused Study instead of an extra feat (it will pay off at level 8.) It really is better to look into the extra +x bonuses to skills rather than getting high intelligence, as the extra points you get are limited by the "ranks =< level" rule.
The fighter is still +6-8 points ahead of you in to-hit. That is a lot. In comparison a monk without weapon focus is 6 points behind the fighter in bonuses to-hit when flurrying. And a non optimized monk is considered one of worse combat option in the game.
Well... Bonus to attack and damage rolls are pretty much all the Fighter has, it's the focus of the class.
A better idea would be comparing your to-hit and damage to a Ranger without Favored Enemy or Non-smiting Paladin.
Well... Bonus to attack and damage rolls are pretty much all the Fighter has, it's the focus of the class.
A better idea would be comparing your to-hit and damage to a Ranger without Favored Enemy or Non-smiting Paladin.
Not looking at the damage just to-hit. The fighter is the baseline for melee-combat effective class. If you are +9 behind him in to-hit, then you are way behind where you need to be. I'm asking if there is a way to get within +5 of the fighter by level 12. non-Paladins and non-twf-non-FE-rangers are only +4 behind the fighter, but they both have options to catch up and surpass the fighter.
|
|
Play a half-elf rogue with an Agile Elven Curved Blade and Weapon Finesse. Or if you don't want to play a half-elf, just play a human and spend your level 3 feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
1d10 damage, 18-20 crit range, and it's finessable.
Already explained...this is for PFS. Your not getting an agile before level 6...or at least not much before 6 (maybe 1 session). The PFS game goes to level 12. Spending half your game life being useless is not exactly fun...nor advisable way to play PFS as you may annoy the random other people at your table.
Not looking at the damage just to-hit. The fighter is the baseline for melee-combat effective class. If you are +9 behind him in to-hit, then you are way behind where you need to be. I'm asking if there is a way to get within +5 of the fighter by level 12. non-Paladins and non-twf-non-FE-rangers are only +4 behind the fighter, but they both have options to catch up and surpass the fighter.Well... Bonus to attack and damage rolls are pretty much all the Fighter has, it's the focus of the class.
A better idea would be comparing your to-hit and damage to a Ranger without Favored Enemy or Non-smiting Paladin.
What? It's not like you need Weapon Training to consistently hit your target. It's a nice bonus, but not necessary. A fighter could lose it and still land his strikes more often than not, just like a Paladin doesn't need Smite Evil to be relevant.
Not looking at the damage just to-hit. The fighter is the baseline for melee-combat effective class. If you are +9 behind him in to-hit, then you are way behind where you need to be. I'm asking if there is a way to get within +5 of the fighter by level 12. non-Paladins and non-twf-non-FE-rangers are only +4 behind the fighter, but they both have options to catch up and surpass the fighter.Not sure what you are getting at. The Rogue is, assuming no feat or ability difference, at +9BAB vs the fighter's +12BAB (OK +15 including weapon training), a three (six) point difference.
The Rogue does have chances to attack vs targets without having those targets include their Dex bonus to AC. (Stealth -> first attack = Surprise)
But I agree with Lemmy, You shouldn't try comparing a primary non-combat class to the premier combat class and expect it to match up.
Rogues scout.. preventing fighters from falling into deep pits where they can't get out of.
Fighter: 12 BAB + 2 weapon focus + 2 weapon training
Rogue: 9 BAB + 1 weapon focus - 2 two weapon fightingAssume same ability modifier
Fighter to-hit - Rogue to hit = 8
Can't assume no feat difference since the fighter gets feats the rogue can't.
Can't add in flanking since both get that
The rogue needs to be somewhat close to fighter in hitting things. They don't even need to hit things harder, but a +8 (9 without weapon focus) is too large. Only NPC classes, Sorcerers and Wizards are that far (or farther) behind the fighter with to-hit roles.
So yeah the rogue is better at melee combat than arcane full casters without polymorph and commoners in terms of being able to-hit things.