Goblin Squad Member
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I look forward to one of my two mains being a cleric, a Lawful Good worshipper of Torag. Iomedae will be sufficient until Torag can be properly worshipped in the uncivilized lands of the River Kingdoms. I remain hopeful the many tasks of daily life in the church or temple are to be part of Pathfinder. Even though this list is targeted towards a good, specifically a lawful good cleric, the opposide may be available as well for evil aligned clerics. Here are the things I hope to see:
Clerics serving their chosen deity - in any number of ways clerics are expected to spend their life serving their chosen deity, whether it be in deeds or words.
Leading religious services – Once churches and/or temples of various types are implemented, hopefully there will be scripted interactions with the NPCs who manage the temple (or even eventually all PC run).
Preaching the gospel – Roleplayers should enjoy spreading the good word amongst the masses, whether in town, on the road or in potentially hostile situations. You never know when a good word can help out.
Serving the righteous – Good people deserve good things happening to them. Doing good deeds serves the interest of the temple and the cleric’s chosen deity, possibly bringing converts, craftsmen, and donations.
Performing religious rituals (marriage, birth, death) – Those who revere Torag or his allied gods may receive religious services in the temple of Torag. Clerics of Torag may conduct marriages, blessings , and last rites for those deemed worthy of such.
Keeping histories – Scribes record the histories of life events so they may be passed down to future generations. Temples should have scriptoriums either as part of the temple or adjacent to them (libraries should also be nearby).
Going on Sabbatical – The staff at the temple will rotate duties, allowing other clerics, paladins and priests to further their skills and education, or travel the lands seeking converts, knowledge and treasure in the name of Torag.
Performing missionary work – Converting non-believers into believers is one of the primary missions or clerics, and clerics of Torag should seek out non-believers to increase the flock whenever and wherever possible.
Serving penance – Not every cleric makes it through live untarnished. Quests of forgiveness and penance should be part of the rituals available to clerics and paladins in order to regain the divine standing with their chosen deity.
Feeding the hungry – The wretched and poor within each settlement are in constant need of care from charities. Temples can fill that need with food, clothing and medical care.
Healing the sick and tending the malformed – As noted above, clerics will serve the population within their settlement to heal the sick and care for the handicapped and abandoned.
Fighting evil – Evil knows no bounds, and should be not only held at bay, but destroyed. Fighting evil wherever it is found is a paramount duty of the divine.
Boosting Morale in the field and in battle – While in the field, armies need support through healing, prayer and morale. Clerics can perform all these duties, as well as support the armies in combat.
Resurrecting the dead (when possible) – It may be that not everyone can be resurrected automatically (perhaps they have not been faithful enough to their chosen deity). Clerics may resurrect the dead when possible, as resurrections are one of the things no others but the divinely trained may do….restore body and soul. The foul scum who only resurrect the body through the dark art of necromancy shall be punished!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Drat, I was just going to create a thread about clerics archetypes.
I would like to see the following as part of the cleric archetype:
1) Shrines to your deity: these would be places where a lot of @Hardin's activities would be done. They would also be soulbinding points for characters to revive after death. A cleric archtype character should have incentive to build shrines to their diety.
2) Gain NPC worshipers: I think that a cleric archetype character's reputation should increase as his shrine gains NPC worshipers.
3) Gain PC character followers: I think that cleric archetype characters should gain reputation or some other benefit for having PC characters bind to their shrine.
4) State Faith: I think that settlements should be able to align with deities and shrines for some benefit. This could be tied to a settlement artifact or to a major shrine with other shrines under it.
5) Benefits for Deity Devotion: I think that PC characters should receive some in-game benefit for declaring a specific deity when it comes to shrines or settlements dedicated to that deity. This could be a souldbind benefit, or increased spell affect when cast by a cleric archetype of that deity.
6) Divine Presence: I think that there should be some active divine presence in-game. This could be temporary buffs/debuffs for sanctification/desecration of shrines or holy places.
7) Holy Places: I think there should be areas in-game (mostly spawned in the wild) where a deity's presence is temporarily evident. This could be tied to spawned monsters or a resource node.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I intend to be a faithful believer of some deity (not sure who yet), but I won't be playing a cleric. I don't think there needs to be any benefit to it beyond RP potential, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.
I would appreciate some sort of religious schedule so I know when holidays are. I think a simple posted schedule in the local temple would suffice, but if I'm expected to bring some item or offering, that info would be nice to have as well.
Also, how would I go about tithing? Does the gold go in a jar or to a priest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Generally speaking I dig all of this.
I would like to see a process for PCs to devote themselves to a deity. In fact, I think it would be ultra-cool if a PC priest of the particular was required as a kind of sponsor. I would like to see rituals that involved a PC devoting themselves to a deity at a service where other PCs could witness the act, etc, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) Shrines to your deity: these would be places where a lot of @Hardin's activities would be done. They would also be soulbinding points for characters to revive after death. A cleric archtype character should have incentive to build shrines to their diety.
I would presume (which can be dangerous) that at the very least the "starter temple" would become a bind point for clerics of that alignment, but not be restricted to that. Eventually there may be other places that could be specifically constructed to enable a resurrection, placed by that particular cleric. It would probably be tied to a higher level skill and become available after a series of rituals. (Guessing)
2) Gain NPC worshipers: I think that a cleric archetype character's reputation should increase as his shrine gains NPC worshipers.
As the settlement grows, more people attend the regular sermons, readings, etc... Larger templs attract bigger crowds, may have a larger tithing (if required, might be cash, might be a chicken or duck, whatever the faithful could afford, not sure how that would be implemented). Good times would provide large crowds, a bad omen would diminish the crowd.
3) Gain PC character followers: I think that cleric archetype characters should gain reputation or some other benefit for having PC characters bind to their shrine.
Interesting idea. A well placed shrine could draw many binders. Perhaps a strong, devoted following could even increase the number of threads available.
4) State Faith: I think that settlements should be able to align with deities and shrines for some benefit. This could be tied to a settlement artifact or to a major shrine with other shrines under it.
There will be a core alignment for settlements. I will be LG, but that will restrict others, as an LG settlement will allow LG, LN, and NG, but a NG settlement allows LG, NG, CG and N (If I am understanding the current plan). Although there will eventually be a settlement based on LG, as devotees to Iomedae and Torag or other LG deities grow.
Artifacts may at some point be installed in a temple (or other building) to buff the entire settlement, and some artifacts found as escalation victory rewards might be tied to a specific slot, such as a boost to a temple to increase tithing, or settlement farm production as a boost to food growth, or to fertility to increase the NPCs generated at local harvest event.
5) Benefits for Deity Devotion: I think that PC characters should receive some in-game benefit for declaring a specific deity when it comes to shrines or settlements dedicated to that deity. This could be a souldbind benefit, or increased spell affect when cast by a cleric archetype of that deity.
Some specific spells, many I think of right off are non-combat and related to creation of more food for the poor, or a more bountiful harvest for an NPC, or a blessing to a recently born child. RP type things that could be ceremonies performed at your temple. All together a regular attendance might increase through earned bonuses by being a devoted cleric.
6) Divine Presence: I think that there should be some active divine presence in-game. This could be temporary buffs/debuffs for sanctification/desecration of shrines or holy places.
For desecration of a shrine, perhaps a flag visible only to followers of that diety, communicated to them directly by their god. You decescrate my Shrine of Torag, you light up like a candle to me, but others cannot see the flag. But the bad guy gains favor from his god as a reward.
7) Holy Places: I think there should be areas in-game (mostly spawned in the wild) where a deity's presence is temporarily evident. This could be tied to spawned monsters or a resource node.
Not sure how this would play out, but I like the idea. Druids could have a trail of leaves appear in their wake if they have performed a deed the deities of nature favor. Or colorful birds hover or light on the druids shoulder for a while. Clerics of Torag might have their hammer smoulder for an hour after same requirement met. Each deity would have a requirement, result much like a cantrip, harmless but visible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Performing missionary work – Converting non-believers into believers is one of the primary missions or clerics, and clerics of Torag should seek out non-believers to increase the flock whenever and wherever possible.
I have to question how viable "converting non-believers" would be.
A) It's impossible to not believe the deities exist in the first place, since they fairly often influence the world through their clerics and people can more-or-less casually summon angels.
B) If the divine are a known quantity and information on them seems pretty readily available even without listening to someone preach about them, it seems really dickish to try and convert people from one religion to another, since both are completely and perfectly valid, and the one they were in first was probably one they chose consciously based on their own opinions and beliefs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of this will have to be roleplayed to have any merit. It is doubtful many of these elements can be programmed in....a few can for certain, but most will depend largely on the player base wanting to live in a world where they believe their efforts make a difference (sounds like real life...maybe I should play THAt more).
Still, programming has limits. Players have imaginations for a reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to question how viable "converting non-believers" would be.
A) It's impossible to not believe the deities exist in the first place, since they fairly often influence the world through their clerics and people can more-or-less casually summon angels.
B) If the divine are a known quantity and information on them seems pretty readily available even without listening to someone preach about them, it seems really dickish to try and convert people from one religion to another, since both are completely and perfectly valid, and the one they were in first was probably one they chose consciously based on their own opinions and beliefs.
Even some of the Pathfinder deities seek to convert other deities from one relogion to another. For example, see this quote from the Pathfinder Wikia:
"Sarenrae counts all non-evil gods as companions, and even communicates with evil deities in the hopes of converting them from their dark ways."
If you think Sarenrae is being "dickish" in her attempts to convert, please feel free to tell her so.
(Proselytizing is common, but is unlikely in an MMO. For the sake of roleplaying, it shouldbe as accepted as any other action including combat, exploration, or shopping. It is a game, after all.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Performing missionary work – Converting non-believers into believers is one of the primary missions or clerics, and clerics of Torag should seek out non-believers to increase the flock whenever and wherever possible.I have to question how viable "converting non-believers" would be.
A) It's impossible to not believe the deities exist in the first place, since they fairly often influence the world through their clerics and people can more-or-less casually summon angels.
B) If the divine are a known quantity and information on them seems pretty readily available even without listening to someone preach about them, it seems really dickish to try and convert people from one religion to another, since both are completely and perfectly valid, and the one they were in first was probably one they chose consciously based on their own opinions and beliefs.
There is an entire nation in pathfinder that has outlawed the worship of any god. Just because the gods are real, doesn't mean that the same kind of religious proselytizing that we have in the real world isn't present.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is an entire nation in pathfinder that has outlawed the worship of any god. Just because the gods are real, doesn't mean that the same kind of religious proselytizing that we have in the real world isn't present.Performing missionary work – Converting non-believers into believers is one of the primary missions or clerics, and clerics of Torag should seek out non-believers to increase the flock whenever and wherever possible.I have to question how viable "converting non-believers" would be.
A) It's impossible to not believe the deities exist in the first place, since they fairly often influence the world through their clerics and people can more-or-less casually summon angels.
B) If the divine are a known quantity and information on them seems pretty readily available even without listening to someone preach about them, it seems really dickish to try and convert people from one religion to another, since both are completely and perfectly valid, and the one they were in first was probably one they chose consciously based on their own opinions and beliefs.
I know it's a different setting, but I'd suggest you also look at characters like Sanya. He's a character in the Dresden Files books who was possessed by a fallen angel, then met the archangel Michael and was given a holy sword made from a nail of the cross of the cruxifiction. And he's an agnostic/athiest. People could acknowledge these beings as extremely powerful without considering them gods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even some of the Pathfinder deities seek to convert other deities from one relogion to another. For example, see this quote from the Pathfinder Wikia:
"Sarenrae counts all non-evil gods as companions, and even communicates with evil deities in the hopes of converting them from their dark ways."If you think Sarenrae is being "dickish" in her attempts to convert, please feel free to tell her so.
(Proselytizing is common, but is unlikely in an MMO. For the sake of roleplaying, it shouldbe as accepted as any other action including combat, exploration, or shopping. It is a game, after all.)
In hindsight, when I wrote my post I should have mentioned that I was coming from the perspective of interactions between the good-aligned, let's use Torag and Sarenrae for this example.
Of course most of the time good would try and redeem the evil and evil would try and corrupt the good (and even other evil), that's just the way things go. That's not what I was aiming at.
Sarenrae isn't a dick for wanting to convert and redeem evil. That's just who she is and what she does, and that's fine. What wouldn't as fine was if she had so little respect for Torag that she figured his followers were better off worshiping her than him. That's what I'm aiming at.
There is an entire nation in pathfinder that has outlawed the worship of any god. Just because the gods are real, doesn't mean that the same kind of religious proselytizing that we have in the real world isn't present.
That's a very valid situation. For people who really haven't had the exposure to religion like most other places in the world, it'd be totally realistic that you'd have clerics teaching the word of their deity and trying to bring them into the fold. That's not what I was going for, though.
However, the people who you will be interacting with do have that exposure, be it from a metagaming perspective (chances are, nearly all PFO players will be Pathfinder players and already know what most deities are like and which they prefer for their characters) or from an actual in-character perspective.
Again, hindsight is 20/20.
But to be clearer, my perspective is I don't know how viable evangelizing will be when nearly every person you meet already knows pretty much everything there is to know about your deity* but chose otherwise for ideological reasons and I'm hoping you have enough respect for them, their decisions, and the deity they worship to refrain from going "no, you're wrong, worship my deity instead". Except when trying to convert and redeem the evil. Go nuts with that.
*: I'm guessing it's gonna be really damned unlikely that someone playing Pathfinder Online wouldn't be a fan of the tabletop game and not know about the various deities and what they stand for.
[*: I'm guessing it's gonna be really damned unlikely that someone playing Pathfinder Online wouldn't be a fan of the tabletop game and not know about the various deities and what they stand for.
Hello :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, we have as many MMO fans as we do PF fans, and I'll bet it swings that way when the game comes out. Frankly, I do think a lot of people will come having never even played a TT game, let alone Pathfinder. It's just biased that way right now, because PFO drew in a lot of people through the name, for the moment, and because of advertising from Paizo.
Of course, players can probably find descriptions of the Deities, especially where ever they choose to start worship.
Besides, even in universe, just because they are real doesn't mean every person has heard much of any particular god. It's a big world, and a lot of people never go far, or get much education, so it wouldn't be too hard, in the right place, to never hear of Irori, or if you're not a Dwarf, might not hear much of Torag, and if you're in a non-evil area, you probably haven't taken a close look at the words of Norgorber and Asmodeus. And past there, it's implied sometimes locals have variations on gods that they worship, especially area from the Inner Sea.
I really doubt all the people know everything of all Deities, all the time, instead of just what's most worshiped locally and what rumors pass through. Further, even if you know of deities, you might only worship them on some relevant occasions. Clerics could seek to turn the apathetic into more active, loyal followers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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During the video of the Kickstarter countdown Stephen Cheney was able to name the nine starting deities off the top of his head, so they know which ones will be in at the start. There will be more, but having at least one "set" of deities is a good start. I haven't heard a peep about which gods or demigods will be up next, but since my cleric will be an LG Dwarf, I am hopeful to see Torag in the next list.
@Harrison: You're making tons of assumptions in your post. Not everyone in the world of Golarion necessarily knows much about the gods. There are many different fantasy novels I can name that give wonderful examples of this. The best one I can think of is called the Deed of Paksenarrion. In this trilogy, the main character starts out as a sheepfarmer's daughter who wants to become soldier. Even though gods are real, have powers similar to what a deity in PFRPG has, and even has powerful mortal servants similar to clerics and paladins she has NO idea about many of the deities except the ones her family worships particularly.
Why? She has little education and spends all of her time working on a farm. From before dawn until after the sun sets. Many people in PFO could easily be roleplayed to fit into a similar niche. People raised in a large town or city may be better educated about the different deities, but there are many reasons why a large-ish percentage of the people in a community would have little or no idea about a deity... not to mention that Golarion's pantheon is ENORMOUS! I love Pathfinder, but I'm not certain whether or not I could name each and every god in the pantheon, much less their portfolios... It seems reasonable to think that this would be true for a large percent of people in Golarion, too.