All that i wrote can be applied also to one player. Your choice, your consequence. I hope it will be fine for all. Good luck and have fun :)
Everyone wants to be a hero.I don't.
Me, I just wanna do the Hokey Pokey, but I REFUSE to turn myself around! That's the DM's job. ;)
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Me, I just wanna do the Hokey Pokey, but I REFUSE to turn myself around! That's the DM's job. ;)Everyone wants to be a hero.I don't.
What if the Hokey Pokey is really what it is all about?
Then I'm just lazy. :)
Even at a lower level, I can't recall a single college class that's actually made it through a textbook the size of the core rulebook in one semester.I can. Twice.
Both were very demanding classes. I still use the knowledge I gained from one of them.
Pathfinder, on the other hand, is a hobby. People are generally far more willing to invest time in a hobby than on homework.
On the topic of rules knowledge: I was once challenged to a Battletech match having no functional knowledge of the current rules version. I spent 16+ hours that night reading through all current rules books + optional magazine articles as part of my prep.
You guys DO realize that most of the core book doesn't actually apply to every character, right? I pointed out that much of the book consists of spells and magic items, even NPC stuff for DM's etc to a player of mine just yesterday. He was running a Fighter, and even the races didn't apply since he has a Hobgoblin. So at most he's got the feats, skills, and combat section to look at. That ain't much.
Everyone wants to be a hero.I don't.
Oh, you studly macho type you! You wanna be a stuperhero, eh?!
You guys DO realize that most of the core book doesn't actually apply to every character, right? I pointed out that much of the book consists of spells and magic items, even NPC stuff for DM's etc to a player of mine just yesterday. He was running a Fighter, and even the races didn't apply since he has a Hobgoblin. So at most he's got the feats, skills, and combat section to look at. That ain't much.Even at a lower level, I can't recall a single college class that's actually made it through a textbook the size of the core rulebook in one semester.I can. Twice.
Both were very demanding classes. I still use the knowledge I gained from one of them.
Pathfinder, on the other hand, is a hobby. People are generally far more willing to invest time in a hobby than on homework.
On the topic of rules knowledge: I was once challenged to a Battletech match having no functional knowledge of the current rules version. I spent 16+ hours that night reading through all current rules books + optional magazine articles as part of my prep.
True enough, but if you want to run the game, you have know all the rules, and how all the rules interact. And that is a big part of the problem when they add new things that have to interact with the old things. For example the Magus, Spell Combat and Haste.
I didn't read past the first page because dang.
Two quick thoughts.
1: 10hp on mooks is pretty high. Cantrips deal 1d3. How long is it gonna take?
2: If a DM told me "Your sleep was interrupted, you can't prepare spells" I wouldn't expect that he wants to hear "Okay, I go back to sleep." How long does a midnight fight last anyway? Like a minute if it's 10 rounds (which is pretty dang long). So if you just slept in a minute, you're fine again. If the DM makes a point of not getting spells back, I'd assume he means there's no way around it.
Playing heroic fantasy game but not to be a hero. Ok :P
Apparently, you are wrong.Everyone wants to be a hero.I don't.That's fine. We apparently don't need any more.
Sorry, Tina wins that competition because she's made of 100% awesome.
True enough, but if you want to run the game, you have know all the rules, and how all the rules interact. And that is a big part of the problem when they add new things that have to interact with the old things. For example the Magus, Spell Combat and Haste.
I am about to pick up Ultimate Magic, and I know the Magus is part of that. How broken is this stunt you mention?
I am about to pick up Ultimate Magic, and I know the Magus is part of that. How broken is this stunt you mention?
True enough, but if you want to run the game, you have know all the rules, and how all the rules interact. And that is a big part of the problem when they add new things that have to interact with the old things. For example the Magus, Spell Combat and Haste.
Spell Combat allows a Magus to cast a spell with his off hand while making a melee attack as part of a full round action. Now Haste allows an extra attack as part of a full attack action. So the debate is whether or not a Magus would while using Spell Combat and Hasted be allowed the extra attack.
The stunt isn't broken, just not well defined. Spell Combat which is gained at first level is broken in my opinion, as is Spell Strike at second level, and the whole Magus class.
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Apparently, you are wrong.Everyone wants to be a hero.I don't.That's fine. We apparently don't need any more.
Clearly that is from a time long ago in a land far far away, where they needed heroes.
Tina Turner made her statement in 1985, which means we no longer need heroes.
This is why there is no Pathfinder Modern and d20 modern was discontinued.
Obviously...
Doesn’t matter what you rolled. Once the get done with the encounter, they can just go back to sleep, sleep in a bit, and all their spells are back.The way I try to run interrupted sleep nights is, randomize a chance of an encounterI rolled a natural 20 to see if they encountered anything.
I usually roll a d20 and if i roll above a 17 they get an encounter during the night.It's not like I was deliberately trying to poke at the weaknesses of wizards, tho they should be prepared for it, and they had a guard who could easily have taken out 4 crappy kobolds on his own while the others got some sleep, but it's like they wanted to forget about the mechanics of wizards needing full rest, and I do not want to reward players who want to ignore their classes weaknesses. There have to be counter balances to the class.
False, letting them sleep extra without wasting time out of the adventuring day is bad time management. I will not ignore a plainly stated rule just because "WIZARDS!!!"
If they want to sleep more, it will not be 'just implied' that they sleep more. Serious time will be spent out of teh day to make up the extra 2 hours of sleep and the hour it takes them to prepare their spells, eventually they will run out of daylight. Your opinions seem to be that "wizards are god, they have no weaknesses!!!! your dm is badwrongfun!!!!" And you have offered nothing constructive thus far.
I am not just going to throw a bunch of mindless, weaponless, armorless enemies at them for them to just blow up, nor am I going to tell them to do some minor exploring in an open room that as adventurers they should be doing that anyway.
DOn't mean to prod a dead horse. But doesn't the rules say the wizards just need non-straining rest. They don't have to sleep, they can have summon a rocking chair and enjoy the sky?
DOn't mean to prod a dead horse. But doesn't the rules say the wizards just need non-straining rest. They don't have to sleep, they can have summon a rocking chair and enjoy the sky?Doesn’t matter what you rolled. Once the get done with the encounter, they can just go back to sleep, sleep in a bit, and all their spells are back.The way I try to run interrupted sleep nights is, randomize a chance of an encounterI rolled a natural 20 to see if they encountered anything.
I usually roll a d20 and if i roll above a 17 they get an encounter during the night.It's not like I was deliberately trying to poke at the weaknesses of wizards, tho they should be prepared for it, and they had a guard who could easily have taken out 4 crappy kobolds on his own while the others got some sleep, but it's like they wanted to forget about the mechanics of wizards needing full rest, and I do not want to reward players who want to ignore their classes weaknesses. There have to be counter balances to the class.
False, letting them sleep extra without wasting time out of the adventuring day is bad time management. I will not ignore a plainly stated rule just because "WIZARDS!!!"
If they want to sleep more, it will not be 'just implied' that they sleep more. Serious time will be spent out of teh day to make up the extra 2 hours of sleep and the hour it takes them to prepare their spells, eventually they will run out of daylight. Your opinions seem to be that "wizards are god, they have no weaknesses!!!! your dm is badwrongfun!!!!" And you have offered nothing constructive thus far.
I am not just going to throw a bunch of mindless, weaponless, armorless enemies at them for them to just blow up, nor am I going to tell them to do some minor exploring in an open room that as adventurers they should be doing that anyway.
Yes, they could in theory not sleep as long as they meditate, sit in a rocking chair, out do whatever it is that relaxes them as long as it isn't taxing on the mind or attention of the wizard.
If this was about a wizard who sneezed in the middle of the night, I would not rule that an interruption.
Having full on combat where the wizard uses his prepared spells, and being awake for a block of a few hours to stand guard while you have to stay alert and mind your surroundings I ruled as interruptions.
Mostly players on these boards want me to just imply that the casters get enough sleep anyway, and let them enjoy playing their class like there were no downsides because it's more fun that way.
But I feel that defeats the purpose of having those rules exist in the first place. Ignoring the few weaknesses that the class has makes them even more powerful than they already are.
An update, now two of my players want to switch out from being wizards, and they did it just so they could experience playing all wizards once. It was a fad, and it is now over.
Here's a question: Do both Wizards and Clerics have to rest those 8 hours, which means they are exempt from watches unless the PC group rests a total of 10 hours and switch off every 2 hours?
Or is it just Wizards? What other classes have to do that?
Seems to me that it would be wise for a primary spellcaster to get a Ring of Sustenance and wear it at all times, so that they have time to rest, memorize spells, take watches, and even craft magic items while adventuring.
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Here's a question: Do both Wizards and Clerics have to rest those 8 hours, which means they are exempt from watches unless the PC group rests a total of 10 hours and switch off every 2 hours?
Or is it just Wizards? What other classes have to do that?
Seems to me that it would be wise for a primary spellcaster to get a Ring of Sustenance and wear it at all times, so that they have time to rest, memorize spells, take watches, and even craft magic items while adventuring.
Actually...divine casters need NO rest to regain spells. They pray at a set time of day to get spells back (usually set as dawn, dusk, noon or midnight...but it can really be anything as long as it is the same time each day). They can be up for 10 days, completely exhausted and still get their spells back.
Most groups do not rule that guard shift counts as interruption just so the wizard can take a shift and not unduly burden the rest of the party with longer shifts. Now it could be viewed that guard duty is an interruption...but even then, all that mean is that the wizard sleeps in an hour longer...not big deal...but really, that is a grey area.
well, other than the 10 days bit, it is relatively reasonable for divine casters to not need to rest specifically for spells, since generally they are just a conduit for something to cast through them, while arcanists actively manipulate the either.
now: my 2cc.
An all wiz group, even at low levels if balanced with themselves, should be able to at least survive for a while (not counting walking up and poking the tarrasque to see if it is asleep) and almost sounds fun.
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Here's a question: Do both Wizards and Clerics have to rest those 8 hours, which means they are exempt from watches unless the PC group rests a total of 10 hours and switch off every 2 hours?
Or is it just Wizards? What other classes have to do that?
Seems to me that it would be wise for a primary spellcaster to get a Ring of Sustenance and wear it at all times, so that they have time to rest, memorize spells, take watches, and even craft magic items while adventuring.
Actually, our group for many years has taken our rest periods to be 12 hours, meaning all the spellcasters can take first or last shift without interrupting the time needed to rest and prepare spells. Of course, sometimes the adventure does not permit that period of time, in which case, spellcasters are usually exempted from watch. On rare occasions, we are in such hostile territory that there is no way to get the required rest and spellcasters simply can't recover their spells. In the most extreme cases (very rare) noone gets any rest and everyone's effectiveness starts to drop from fatigue.
I actually kind of like this, as it takes on the feel of epic adventrues when everyone is battling to overcome adversity. Overcoming that adversity is what produces epic stories and heroes.
To clarify, I will most likely get in depth into the mechanics of seasons, not too in depth, but enough to make it matter.
I'm considering something along the lines of:
Summer- 14 hour days, 10 hour nights
Autumn & Spring- 12 hour days and nights
Winter- 10 hour days, 14 hour nights
Naturally doing this means I need to clarify exactly where on the planet they are to experience such climate, but it makes it so they understand just how long the adventuring day is.
Most likely divide the night into 3 different blocks, each being either 3 1/3- 4 - 4 2/3 hour long shifts. Deciding who gets the first and last shifts is important, because they won't need additional rest if they don't wake up. At least, if I was playing that's what I would do to mitigate the resting weakness of my class. The only person who gets screwed is the middle shift, so make sure he either (a) gets more sleep, or (b) isn't another wizards who is going to tax us out of travel time in the day to get more rest.
Another weakness of wizards is they really cannot afford to travel through the night and only get a few hours of rest, because they require all that sleep, that should be a significant factor.
@Piccolo, yes. I planned on a Ring of Sustenance being a very important item once my players figure out how to get one. For their first few adventures I want them to have to rough it though.
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Seems to me that it would be wise for a primary spellcaster to get a Ring of Sustenance and wear it at all times, so that they have time to rest, memorize spells, take watches, and even craft magic items while adventuring.
Uh...yeah.
It's kind of like getting a handy haversack. Just something you do at a certain level.
Seems to me that it would be wise for a primary spellcaster to get a Ring of Sustenance and wear it at all times, so that they have time to rest, memorize spells, take watches, and even craft magic items while adventuring.Uh...yeah.
It's kind of like getting a handy haversack. Just something you do at a certain level.
Never did that before. Never thought it was necessary. And the sucky thing about it is that it sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots. Rings are easily one of the best magic item types in the game.
Now, the way most of the parties I ran did time management like this:
You adventure for approximately 8-10 hours a day.
You sleep for 8 hours a day.
You take a night watch for 2 hours a day. This assumes a 4 man party.
That leaves approximately 4 hours a day for cooking, eating, "bathroom" breaks, item maintenance, etc.
With a Ring of Sustenance on the Wizard or Sorcerer (especially the Wizard since they also have to memorize spells), the whole party gets more time to work with each day. Suddenly, the group only has to rest for 8 hours a day total, because the Wizard can take a double shift on night watch. BTW, that also means Perception checks become very important for a Wizard, which can be mitigated by the Alarm spell somewhat.
Meanwhile, the Wizard can now spend that 4 hours (or 8 hours a day if the rest of the group takes over night watch completely) on crafting, AND STILL ADVENTURE AS NORMAL. However, to have room to do this, and NOT to have to carry all that gear, you'd need a Portable Hole, a ladder, a hammock, and your alchemical gear inside the Hole. Effectively if you construct vertically within the Portable Hole, you can have a mobile apartment you carry with you.
Personally, I think the Wizard really should have 4 class skill points per level, instead of 2, because of the Craft (whatever) skills they need to do their job, AND the Knowledges necessary to identify monsters, AND the magical Spellcraft/Arcana checks they need to do their thing. Might just make that change in my game.
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The Wizard doesn't need more skills per level as an Int focused class.
Edit: Example.
@Piccolo, yes. I planned on a Ring of Sustenance being a very important item once my players figure out how to get one. For their first few adventures I want them to have to rough it though.
Here, this might help:
Travel Cloak- 5 cold resistance, sheds precipitation to the knees, gray-green color, trail rations for one each day (you could make it a racial version if it was inherited by a PC), turns into a 1 man tent once per day, a 1 pint flask in a hidden extradimensional pocket that provides up to 2 gallons of fluid each day either sugared hot tea or cool spring water. Weighs 1 pound, costs 1200gp, Craft Wondrous Item (dunno what spells needed). Found in Magic of Faerun softcover book, page 166.
All they need to get more than that is a bunch of soap, a lantern, flint and steel, a masterwork backpack, and a bedroll to camp for however long. But I would require increasing Will saves if they subsist on trail rations for long periods and encounter the chance to have real food!
Buy a wagon, however many days worth of Common food, cooking gear, 2 riding horses, and hire out a cook/driver (pay as professional NPC, because of the danger level) for the same number of days, and perhaps include enough water for several days. Then have the rest of the party buy war horses so they don't spook, and you can travel long distances much faster as well as not having to spend time cooking. Upgrade the meals for free to Good because you have a professional cook doing the work.
The Wizard doesn't need more skills per level as an Int focused class.
Disagree. There are simply too many that are needed. Here's a list:
Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Planes, Religion just to identify all forms of beasties.
Spellcraft to do their jobs, as well as Appraise because you need that to identify how much moolah is it worth when you sell it. Stealth because the entire party moves solely on the worst Stealth check out of the bunch. Eventually you might need Fly as well, and Linguistics to read odd ancient documents.
That means just plain too many Int skills for someone to run around with and use. Even with a 20 Int, you are looking at perhaps 8 at most skill points per level, not counting Human. Yes, it's possible to jack that up to 36 Int by 20th level. All I can say is, either take a straight up human or Elf with Darkvision if you want to be a Wizard.
Racially, you need:
Darkvision so you don't have to carry a light source and give yourself away while using Stealth. Bonus to Int (spells and all those skills) and Dexterity (touch spells and firing into melee, not to mention AC, Init, Stealth, Reflex saves).
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I'm playing a Pathfinder wizard in one game, and I by no means feel like I am lacking in skill points... and I'm only level 3! You don't need to max every Craft and Knowledge to be useful with them - most, you only need a couple of ranks across your whole career. The first rank is probably the most important, so you can make those trained-only checks, and also because it gives the most bang for your buck.
This is utterly at odds to pretty much every single other character I've played, where there's almost always a vital skill I'm missing out on.
Besides - unless your GM houserules otherwise, you can substitute Spellcraft for most Craft checks for making magical items. My wizard has two ranks in two separate Craft skills for flavour more than anything. She also maxes out Bluff and Diplomacy as well. :P
It forces you to pick which skills you really need maxed. This is good. Otherwise your wizard is a better skill monkey than the rogue.
Oh geez, even if a wizard could potentially start out with TWELVE skill points starting out, there's no way they could touch Rogue skills. They don't have the attributes to pull it off, and there are far too many useful Wizard skills that they should grab.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
Besides - unless your GM houserules otherwise, you can substitute Spellcraft for most Craft checks for making magical items. My wizard has two ranks in two separate Craft skills for flavour more than anything. She also maxes out Bluff and Diplomacy as well. :P
Sigh, I have never heard of anyone allowing Spellcraft for magic item creation checks. From what I read, it was Craft from the get-go, JUST to make the masterwork item (or homonculus).
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It forces you to pick which skills you really need maxed. This is good. Otherwise your wizard is a better skill monkey than the rogue.Oh geez, even if a wizard could potentially start out with TWELVE skill points starting out, there's no way they could touch Rogue skills. They don't have the attributes to pull it off, and there are far too many useful Wizard skills that they should grab.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
They don't have to touch "Rogue" skills, because they have the covered via spells. Invisibility > Stealth, Fly > Acrobatics, True Seeing > Perception.
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Rogues don't have a huge incentive to increase Int as they level like Wizards do. And with the retroactive nature of skills in PF, that makes a difference.
I would rather the Wizard have to pick and choose wisely, putting one rank in skills he just needs trained, and maxing his chosen knowledges, than having every knowledge known to man.
It forces you to pick which skills you really need maxed. This is good. Otherwise your wizard is a better skill monkey than the rogue.Oh geez, even if a wizard could potentially start out with TWELVE skill points starting out, there's no way they could touch Rogue skills. They don't have the attributes to pull it off, and there are far too many useful Wizard skills that they should grab.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
Besides - unless your GM houserules otherwise, you can substitute Spellcraft for most Craft checks for making magical items. My wizard has two ranks in two separate Craft skills for flavour more than anything. She also maxes out Bluff and Diplomacy as well. :PSigh, I have never heard of anyone allowing Spellcraft for magic item creation checks. From what I read, it was Craft from the get-g
o, JUST to make the masterwork item (or homonculus).
Ummmmmmmmm I've never seen a wizard witt less than an 18 INT, or a 17 if they rolled for it.
6 or 7 skill ranks per level should be enough to do something.
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Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
Even assuming 15 point buy or the elite array, it's easy to get a 15-16 in Int, 17-18 from race. Other point buys will have 18 at bare minimum.
Sigh, I have never heard of anyone allowing Spellcraft for magic item creation checks. From what I read, it was Craft from the get-go, JUST to make the masterwork item (or homonculus).
Read here and keep scrollin'. Spellcraft all the way down, baby.
They don't have to touch "Rogue" skills, because they have the covered via spells. Invisibility > Stealth, Fly > Acrobatics, True Seeing > Perception.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
Nope. Have you looked at the duration of Improved Invisibility? Even regular Invisibility is measured in minutes, and that's not long enough outside of combat rounds. I know how long it takes to do most things, and its longer than most people calculate mentally, part of that is my career.
Second, MM, lots of people in my time and even today do not have a 17-18 Int in game. Point buy virtually assures this won't happen, and most 4d6 dice rolls are NOT 6, 6, 6, whatever. I routinely see 14-16 on Wizards. Racial bonuses knock that up 2 points, but either way, it ain't a 20 unless they get VERY lucky or the DM is generous.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.Even assuming 15 point buy or the elite array, it's easy to get a 15-16 in Int, 17-18 from race. Other point buys will have 18 at bare minimum.
Read here and keep scrollin'. Spellcraft all the way down, baby.
Sigh, I have never heard of anyone allowing Spellcraft for magic item creation checks. From what I read, it was Craft from the get-go, JUST to make the masterwork item (or homonculus).
Must have been one of the changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder that I haven't yet discovered, probably because none of them in my campaign are high enough level where magic item crafting is common. I've run previous games with Pathfinder, but they only got to 9th and the players didn't bother with item creation.
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They don't have to touch "Rogue" skills, because they have the covered via spells. Invisibility > Stealth, Fly > Acrobatics, True Seeing > Perception.
Also, someone as educated as a Wizard is SHOULD have more skill points than just 2. Intelligence only makes up for so much, and most characters DO NOT have a maxed out Int to play with. They're lucky if they have a 15-16 Int.
Nope. Have you looked at the duration of Improved Invisibility? Even regular Invisibility is measured in minutes, and that's not long enough outside of combat rounds. I know how long it takes to do most things, and its longer than most people calculate mentally, part of that is my career.
Second, MM, lots of people in my time and even today do not have a 17-18 Int in game. Point buy virtually assures this won't happen, and most 4d6 dice rolls are NOT 6, 6, 6, whatever. I routinely see 14-16 on Wizards. Racial bonuses knock that up 2 points, but either way, it ain't a 20 unless they get VERY lucky or the DM is generous.
I've never seen a wizard in a point buy that didn't max Int. Alternatively rolling a 15 or a 16 will lead to a 17 or 18 with racial modifiers. Wizard is the most SAD class in the game, realistically you won't see a pure wizard build without at least a 17 from the start.
I have to agree. There is no class that SAD's better then a wizard. They can dump Cha, WIs and Str, and likely even Dex if they like (base 10 or 12). They need Int and some Con, and that's about it.
==Aelryinth
We're not going to talk about a single archetype of orc witches with severe role-playing problems, are we?
Sure, we aren't. Heh.
As a class, wizards hands down, although witches are very similar...they just have more restricted spell choices.
==Aelryinth
I have to agree. There is no class that SAD's better then a wizard. They can dump Cha, WIs and Str, and likely even Dex if they like (base 10 or 12). They need Int and some Con, and that's about it.
==Aelryinth
Never saw that in a game before. Most of your players must be geniuses, because I notice mine have a tendency to look at the warrior types with envy when they mention their Dexterity, Constitution scores. And I note they tend to get pounded on hard, because my NPC villains attack whoever they can get their mitts on, ESPECIALLY the squishy ones with the big firepower.
Also, I find that Wizards need Dexterity far more than Constitution, if only to shore up their horrible physical weaponry//BAB and to hit with ranged touch attacks that are subject to firing into melee penalty (-4).
I can certainly understand why a Wizard might want to go Eldritch Knight even if it does end up costing them 2 caster levels. I like the class, but you have to be incredibly careful to play one.
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The difference in stat expectation may be due to differing stat generation methods. Point buy wizards usually start with a 18-20 Int, while rolled wizards typically start with a 16-18 Int. Rolled wizards probably have a couple secondary stats that are higher than the point buy wizard. That is with similar power level rolled vs point buy.
The difference in stat expectation may be due to differing stat generation methods. Point buy wizards usually start with a 18-20 Int, while rolled wizards typically start with a 16-18 Int. Rolled wizards probably have a couple secondary stats that are higher than the point buy wizard. That is with similar power level rolled vs point buy.
Yup. And I like the rolled ones better, as they tend not to be as fragile. I happen to WANT my players to succeed; I just want them to have to work for it (and to laugh often). That laughing is one of the values I absorbed from Castle Greyhawk, once upon a time. More jokes, the merrier, but don't forget to hack the beasties to bits!