Hello,
I have some issues with our current campaign. I am the gamemaster for a group of six players playing WotW from Fire Mountain Games. Most of the problems stem from one player. He seems to have very different views of Lawful Evil and how this campaign should be played than at least 2 other players and me.
The players are Lawful Evil but by adventure path default they try to overthrow the current Lawful Good Monarchy and establish a dictatorship. But how can LAWFUL characters do this without conflicting regulary with the laws of the land?
If I had at least an Asmodeus codex I would have a guiding principle.
This problem player constantly breaks laws and does everthing to further his own wealth (killing merchants, cheating in an arena and starts a betting fraud, kills children after they had seen thru his disguise). He justifies this as he has not to oblige to the laws of Talingard - only Asmodeus laws count for him (funny we know none so he has really broad base to interpret them as he want). His actions often discredit the other players because he has a really good hand in getting away. And he constantly says he PLAYS exactly lawful evil. But I see no difference in his playing to neutral evil or chaotic evil (I think he mostly says this because he knows he will lose his improved familiar if the strays to far from the alignment and as a witch that would be sucking).
Because of this he is in constant struggle with another player who views Asmodeus and the alignment Lawful Evil more in my way (Schemer, merciless tyrann but not going out of his way to hurt people unnessary, bears always the great plan in mind, use of violence sure - but only if necessary).
So last session finally they met a contract devil and after the scene they asked him to make a judicial call who is right and who is wrong.
I really was not prepared so I had some contradictions. I stated that its not legal in Asmodeus Laws to Murder. So the problem player asked: How are we then going to topple this kingdom. I stated that war and murder are differnt shoes and so forth
He is now of the opinion this campaign is unplayable. I just want to stop him playing a tough and constantly bring the mission in danger thru his actions.
I can understand your dilemma. Lawful Evil is one of those hard to grasp moral codes. I believe the major reasons that players and DMs get unsure of how to interpret LE is because it doesn't seem totally evil, in a sense. I mean in the sense that diabolical, chaotic, anarchic, acts of wanton villainy seem to be the domain of CE individuals. In addition, we, as people can most easily identify with these dark acts as truly evil. Lawful evil, in it's myriad definitions that have been provided over the years, leaves us as players to believe that a LE PC is evil but must follow a lawful code of ethics, however twisted that might be. This, in a way, leaves players with a bit of leverage on what their personal code. Therefore, they can pretty much act in whatever way they want, if you let them. However, you have three things going for you. 1) Despite your player's desire to act chaotically in a lawful campaign, you can reign in his behavior with a concrete dogma of the church that you establish or read elsewhere. From your entry it seems that your problem player is playing a character moored in the Asmodean faith. Use that to your advantage. 2)As the DM, you can sit down with the player alone, away from the group, in person, on a day that your not gaming (the previous parts is imperative so that pride and ego is less of a governing factor)and explain to him your difference of interpretation of lawful evil and how his actions, as DM and final arbiter, is causing you and the game a problem. 3)You are running an evil game, let the other lawful evil party member kill him for not acting right :)
In that specific campaign, I would have Tiadora, and possibly even Adrastus have a talk with him, and tell the character that they are endangering his master plan. The Cardinal won't take kindly to that.
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"Lawful" means "following a code". When that codes violates local laws,... well, that's too bad then. A LE character would likely prefer to stay within a legal framework and adhere to socially accepted mores, but it's their own code that must be obeyed first and foremost.
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If you look at it in absolutes: Then lawful evil means anyone who is trying to manipulate the system for their own game. They have codes and morals but they're generally off-par with the rest of the world.
If you look at in self-perception: I know what I am doing is wrong but it is for the greater good.
Generally I would say alignments aren't worth the debate, let them have a character and alignment is secondary.
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If I had at least an Asmodeus codex I would have a guiding principle.
This. This is your problem right here. If you can't give him some concrete guidance on what is 'legal' for an Asmodean in your game and what isn't, then you are implicitly giving him permission to devise it himself.
I can't tell from your description whether he is behaving reasonably or not (the laws of the land are *not* the guiding principals for a lawful character) but it is clear that you have a problem. If you can't provide him with an authoritative *written* code for him to follow, then the two of you need to get together away from the group and hash out what one is. Or agree to disagree.
It sounds to me that the problem isn't so much interpretation of law, so much as simple party conflict. The player in question seems to be endangering the mission(s) by killing people who he doesn't like. That's high profile and I agree will eventually attract attention. Obvious solution is explain the problem, else the GM might need to start punishing the character (possibly with irritated devils or vengeful authorities). If he's a simple thief, devils might pop in demanding 'their cut'.
But, if you're after advice as to what constitutes lawful evil behaviour, in my opinion, some of what he is doing might be okay... just.
Killing a merchant is fine. But if the PC (for example) sold a magic sword to the merchant first, he shouldn't be allowed to loot the merchant and take back his sword. The deal was made.
Murder might be a necessity but promoting chaos and discord most certainly is not. Inciting a riot after being found cheating or from distraught parents is NOT what Asmodeous would appreciate.
But, if you want some specific guidelines:
"Asmodean rogues often say, a worshiper of Asmodeus never steals, but rather exacts rightful tribute from her lessers."
"As a member of the faithful, you are probably arrogant and intolerant of those lesser than you, and respectful to those above. You believe in authority and its calming effect on society."
"The fact that Asmodeans almost never break laws makes it difficult for local governments to justify ousting them"
Just my 5 cents.
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At a glance, I think he might be right.
Lawful doesn't refer to something like "laws of Talingard". Lawful neutral specifically describes someone who follows a code. I don't remember exactly what Lawful Evil says (can someone quote it?) but I imagine it's just a darker version of "having a method to your madness" - which is what you're describing he's doing, I think.
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There is the book 'Evil' by AEG which gives some excellent description of LE/NE/CE.
Paraphrasing:
LE, you use the laws to get what you want.
You want someone's property/land/daughter in marriage - work the court system to increase the fellow's taxes until he goes into foreclosure, have his faithful dog put to sleep (better yet, make him put the dog down), then at the end offer a pittance for the daughter's hand. All done by the law.
Now with Way of the Wicked, yes, they are doing evil things... but because Talingarde is kind of peaceful and such, having unsolved murders will definitely raise some sort of alarm.
If he is leaving a trail of bodies and such in his wake... bring in a special inquistor squad to investigate and get to the bottom of the problem... maybe he has forgotten how he wound up in Branderscar in the first place... :)
He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil