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Can somebody please let me know what I am comparing levels with? Please, a fighter? A Gunslinger? A Ranger? A Paladin? A Barbarian (my favorite)? Monks are "better" because they can have style feats, like crane style. Or snatch arrows. After you have that, there is not much in being a monk, unless you are a Champion of Irori or a Zen Archer. The fast movement has synergy with Panther Style.
The Duelist is the one that gets the high AC from Int. And these are only non-caster classes we are talking about.Another thing about armor, is that in order for the enemy to have the highest possible chance to hit you, 95%, he would have to have your AC in Attack bonus minus 1 (or more). Every other addition to armor makes the gap smaller. AC does matter, even if it is just to get rid of the 2 on that die. So, by this logic. At +20 to Attack rolls, you need at least 23 AC for it to matter and no more than 40.
So, to continue rationally, one would need the level of PC engaged with this hypothetical enemy. Without that, I don't know what I can put on my character. But a level 1 Crane Wing monk can do away with one attack per round and/or one arrow attack per round, easy, so the creature would need more than that. I know that 8 Dex bonus +9 AC from the armor of Celestial Armor = 17, so that is 27....
I guess this would work best if there is a specific creature in mind and a specific level in mind. But yes, I would like to think about this.
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The interesting thing is that a few of the classes ...
T...You may be capable of doing respectable damage and be very hard to harm or kill, but you used a lot of character level options to do it, so your not going to be full of interesting combat options.
Combat options like what? Full attack? What other combat options can a fighter have?
Anyway, this is getting repetitive, I should be happy with what I know and just play the game. Maybe I will see something that is worth saying "AC is meaningless". So far, it has been quite meaningful.
A druid with dragon hide full plate with the enchant that allows its armor bonus when wildshaped and a dip into master of many styles for two levels and crane wing feats... That's a decent example of a class that really doesn't need to invest much outside of what a normal martial would.
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Agile is a very good enchantment for Monks because you get to boost a stat that can increaseyyour to hit, damage, AC, key skills, and reflex. I don't know what Mpindustries was talking about but dex is a hell of a lot more valuable than strength.
I've created several Monk builds using agile and I really enjoy them.
You play what you want to play and what you enjoy playing. Didn't listen to some of the BS that comes from some of these posters.
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I wish I could favourite this again and again and again and again.Er, monks really do suck--this is a widely recognized fact.And here I've been having fun with one. Sorry for playing wrong.Still missing the point.
Nobody is saying anyone is doing anything wrong.
Nope, haven't missed a damn thing to be honest, I would say that some posters are spot on.
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Have what spot on?
Yeah, the Monk is mechanically inferior.
You can still play one, and no is saying that is wrong.
You can have fun playing one, and still, no one saying that is wrong.
It is as if someone is saying that "You know, McDonalds is not very healthy", and the response is "I am not fat, and I don't hit my kids!".
It comes out of no where.
To that last one,
I was always thinking that a Champion of Irori is a really strong.
Only if you have some crazy stats, and anyway 'smite chaos' is not as much use as smite evil.
Also, a Master of Many Styles (3 levels)with Kirin Strike at level 2 and High Intellect, A level of Mind Chemist, and ending with 10 levels of Duelist after 4 levels of Champion + or - something else, would really bring the AC to the max, especially touch. (As a second style Panther looks good, also Archon)
MoMS drops flurry of blows, your main attack form. Those dips will drop your attack chances even further. High intelligence drops your other stats down. The Duelist works better with Snake Style (piercing attacks). So to top it off you have a super-AC, but little offensive capacity. All the enemies have to do is ignore you.
Oh, and this isn't exactly a monk with only three levels of MoMS by level 18...it's a class that dipped monk.
I personally don't believe that any non caster mono class isn't lacking. The Zen Archer is an obvious reason I said that the monk does not suck.
One decent archetype does not a viable class make.
Zen Archer's look good only because the core monk sucks so badly. Compare them to what an archer-ranger can do with better skills, an animal companion, and spells, and the zen archer suddenly looks lacklustre.
And I would rather take a level of Monk than a level of Figher, the saves alone, make up for the BAB, then you have the 3 extra feats, one of which is two weapon fighting, so to speak.
MoMS is the perfect class for a monk dip, to make any other class better than monks at what monks are meant to do. The issue is not the monk's use as a dip class, it's about the monk's viability as a core class.
At low level, the monk can indeed be awesome, especially if you can get the rest of the party to buff you. On the other hand, other classes can be awesome with some basic buffs too, the difference being they don't need them to function.
Levels 1-3: The monk is great, you have probably the best AC in the party, and it doesn't matter that your attacks are only tickling foes because you have more of them and nothing has DR.
Levels 4-6: Everyone is hitting more often than you, and they have comparable AC, and their attacks do damage. You still have good saves, and your Acrobatics just got awesome, and with ki you can still rule in AC. You can also make maneuvers work pretty well still.
Levels 7-9: AC is still great, but others are nearly as good. What's more, their attacks are really starting to score a LOT of damage compared to you, and they are getting decent defences too. Your maneuvers are working less often, and you run into more things they don't work on.
Levels 10-13: You got the agile amulet, yay! Only everyone else still hits more often and harder than you. You're where they were two levels ago. Their defences are getting good too - not as good as yours (unless they are a paladin, in which case they waved you goodbye at level 2), but good enough. You have some neat abilities, but the casters have better spells. There are several foes you run into that other combat classes take on and you may as well not be there - you're down to providing flanking for the rogue in these fights.
Levels 14+: You're a solid way behind in damage, and in hitting. The casters are dominating the special features race. You have some good saves, but your mega-AC isn't keeping you from getting hit all that much - and your hit points aren't exactly stellar either. You can do some good stuff...you just can't shine the way the others do.
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I would say that the monk would really benefit from Mage Armor and Mage Shield. So anything that allows the casting of those spells, esp. from wands, would be an invaluable addition to the "mono-class" monk. Other than that, a monk is on par with any other non-caster class, if not better. That is my story and I am sticking to it.
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To that last one,
I was always thinking that a Champion of Irori is a really strong.Only if you have some crazy stats, and anyway 'smite chaos' is not as much use as smite evil.
Also, a Master of Many Styles (3 levels)with Kirin Strike at level 2 and High Intellect, A level of Mind Chemist, and ending with 10 levels of Duelist after 4 levels of Champion + or - something else, would really bring the AC to the max, especially touch. (As a second style Panther looks good, also Archon)MoMS drops flurry of blows, your main attack form. Those dips will drop your attack chances even further. High intelligence drops your other stats down. The Duelist works better with Snake Style (piercing attacks). So to top it off you have a super-AC, but little offensive capacity. All the enemies have to do is ignore you.
Oh, and this isn't exactly a monk with only three levels of MoMS by level 18...it's a class that dipped monk.
I personally don't believe that any non caster mono class isn't lacking. The Zen Archer is an obvious reason I said that the monk does not suck.One decent archetype does not a viable class make.
Zen Archer's look good only because the core monk sucks so badly. Compare them to what an archer-ranger can do with better skills, an animal companion, and spells, and the zen archer suddenly looks lacklustre.
And I would rather take a level of Monk than a level of Figher, the saves alone, make up for the BAB, then you have the 3 extra feats, one of which is two weapon fighting, so to speak.MoMS is the perfect class for a monk dip, to make any other class better than monks at what monks are meant to do. The issue is not the monk's use as a dip class, it's about the monk's viability as a core class.
At low level, the monk can indeed be awesome, especially if you can get the rest of the party to buff you. On the other hand, other classes can be...
I feel like I should let this go... 3 levels of monk in a Champion of Irori is the most levels of a non-prestige class.
Also, it seems like this has turned into "monks suck topic" and everybody just says how much monks suck, and nobody is saying how much better other "NON CASTER" classes are with ACTUAL EXAMPLES.Honestly, I Would NEVER more than dip in any non-caster class. NEVER. Other than for Champion of Irori. And the smite chaos is just another smite evil OPTION!!!!!! They burn the same pool.
And just coming here to talk crap about a class is wasteful. I doubt I would check on this post again.
I would say that the monk would really benefit from Mage Armor and Mage Shield. So anything that allows the casting of those spells, esp. from wands, would be an invaluable addition to the "mono-class" monk. Other than that, a monk is on par with any other non-caster class, if not better. That is my story and I am sticking to it.
Too bad UMD is charisma based. Strength for damage and hitting, dex for AC, Con for health, Int for skills, Charisma for UMD, and Wisdom for dcs, ki, and AC. Int is the easiest to dump out of those, but without it... ew.
Do you want us to talk about why other martials are good? Its easier to talk about how one class is bad than to compare him to everyone else. Would you like to pick which class maybe? I could say paladins and barbarians might have better saves but I don't think that much would help. I could say the Almost full BAB gig without having full bab is silly. I could say that AoMF is just painful to pay for(so is twf imo). I realy don't know where to start...
I would say that the monk would really benefit from Mage Armor and Mage Shield. So anything that allows the casting of those spells, esp. from wands, would be an invaluable addition to the "mono-class" monk. Other than that, a monk is on par with any other non-caster class, if not better. That is my story and I am sticking to it.
He certainly would, shame he can't cast them, and UMD is not a class skill, and charisma is a dump-stat for monks anyway. You can't guarantee that the monk will have a caster in the party, or that the caster is willing to waste a spell buffing the monk with mage armour. Shield is a bigger problem because it's a personal spell. You can invest in potions of both, but that isn't a perfect solution. Plus you have the danger of de-buffs, and being caught by surprise.
Even if you do this, what do you have? A monk with a great AC...and little offensive capacity. You see, monk AC is not the monk's issue. He can get a good AC, the problem is that if you have a great AC it doesn't compel foes to attack you.
You can stick to your story, but it doesn't make you right. By all means, pick a level, design a monk (preferably a core monk), and we'll run through some CR-appropriate challenges with a non-monk combat class and see which fares best. This has been done in a LOT of other threads, and I'm sorry but the monk was the net loser.
Dabbler, wouldn't one get the Agile Amulet far earlier than level 10?
No arguments here about mechanics of monks from the "monks fall behind" crowd. This is why, despite enjoying playing a monk character, said character is going to start taking levels in cleric so as not to suck. Flavor matters little when one is ineffective.
Does the Amulet add to Grapple checks and CMD vs. Grapple?
No. Would be great if it did, but it doesn't as grapple does not get applied through a 'weapon' - even unarmed strike.
Dabbler, wouldn't one get the Agile Amulet far earlier than level 10?
Of course - but that would put you +1 to hit behind where you would otherwise be, which is already +1 to hit behind a TWFer using masterwork weapons, and +3 behind a non-TWFer. +2 to hit is around the equivelant to +4 to damage, so your net gain? Not much.
No arguments here about mechanics of monks from the "monks fall behind" crowd. This is why, despite enjoying playing a monk character, said character is going to start taking levels in cleric so as not to suck. Flavor matters little when one is ineffective.
Cleric is a good idea, Channel Smite and Guided Hand is great for a monk/cleric of Irrori because then you can use your Wisdom bonus to hit, which makes all your save DCs much better and you can base the character off Wisdom.
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To that last one,
I was always thinking that a Champion of Irori is a really strong. Also, a Master of Many Styles (3 levels)with Kirin Strike at level 2 and High Intellect, A level of Mind Chemist, and ending with 10 levels of Duelist after 4 levels of Champion + or - something else, would really bring the AC to the max, especially touch. (As a second style Panther looks good, also Archon)
I personally don't believe that any non caster mono class isn't lacking. The Zen Archer is an obvious reason I said that the monk does not suck. And I would rather take a level of Monk than a level of Figher, the saves alone, make up for the BAB, then you have the 3 extra feats, one of which is two weapon fighting, so to speak.
And I really can't see how anybody can get so heated about something that can just be ignored.This is a very common misconception newer players have:
Oh man, if I can add three stats to AC, my AC will be awesome!
I'm sorry, it's not true. Armor is the way to go for AC (unfortunately--this is another case where I prefer not wearing armor even though I recognize that it's better).
A heavy armor class can be reasonably expected to be wearing Full Plate by level 3. That's +10 AC (9 from armor, 1 from Dex). Do you really think your monk's Dex and Wis mods could total 10 by level 3? Even with a third stat in there--I just find it impossible without astronomical point buys or ridiculous rolling rules (6d6, take the highest 3, reroll 1s or something silly like that)
By the time you get to stat buff items, you can get Mithril armor, which adds another 2 AC to the mix--it'll be very hard to keep up with that, especially if you're buying an agile amulet of natural attacks.
Then you get to magical enhancements and the Monk has to turn to Bracers of Armor--they cost the same as armor enhancements, but take up a valuable bracer slot.
It's just never a good thing. Wisdom to AC in no armor (and the Int to AC in light/no armor) is not a bonus, it's a...
Unless things are trying to hit touch AC
Unless things are trying to hit touch AC
Yes, monks have good touch AC. Their flat-footed AC often sucks compared to other martials though, so what you gain one way you lose the other.