ok, i need an official ruling on this if someone can link it...
can a rogue/ninja/assassin sneak attack a barbarian if the rogue/ninja/assassin is more then 4 levels higher without flanking said barbarian?
the wording in the discription is really kinda shady on this...
I don't see how its shakey. If you have uncanny dodge you can't be caught flat footed. If you have improved uncanny dodge you can't be flanked. You can still be denied your dex from a feint, and that will let you get sneak attacks off. If the rogue/whatever has 4 or more levels on the barbarian he can still get his sneak attack off by flanking. Is that clear?
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are two different abilities.
You can bypass Improved Uncanny Dodge by being 4 levels higher, but you cannot bypass Uncanny Dodge that way.
So, 20th level Rogue cannot catch a 16th level Barbarian Flatfooted, nor could they deny the Barbarian a dex bonus to AC by being invisible or feinting (EDIT: I misread--you can lose it from a feint). The Rogue could, however, still flank them.
its shakey because of things like invisibility that pretty much guarantee you to be flat-footed. reguardless of uncanny dodge, you cant be "prepaired" for an attack from something you cant see/have no idea it is there.....those are the situations i'm refering to...
So, 20th level Rogue cannot catch a 16th level Barbarian Flatfooted, nor could they deny the Barbarian a dex bonus to AC by being invisible or feinting. The Rogue could, however, still flank them.
It specifically calls out feinting as something you can do. Also being immobilized. Not that your ever immobilized, or feinting is a great option with a barbarian in your face.
I don't see anything saying invisibility still lets you get it off however. So I'm pretty sure it does not.
Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are two different abilities.
You can bypass Improved Uncanny Dodge by being 4 levels higher, but you cannot bypass Uncanny Dodge that way.
So, 20th level Rogue cannot catch a 16th level Barbarian Flatfooted, nor could they deny the Barbarian a dex bonus to AC by being invisible or feinting. The Rogue could, however, still flank them.
i understand the wording on uncanny dodge, i just don't see how this makes any logical sense...
Uncanny Dodge? Your so crazy prepared as an adventurer that you are no longer caught flat footed. Improved uncanny dodge? Your so crazy prepared and used to being flanked it just doesn't happen anymore. A skilled Rogue still gets around you though. Doesn't sound that complicated to me. Uncanny means unnaturally, or extremely precise. Works with either of those two meanings.
Or maybe I am missing what you mean by logic.
It specifically calls out feinting as something you can do. Also being immobilized. Not that your ever immobilized, or feinting is a great option with a barbarian in your face.
Yes, I misread the feinting line. I corrected it with an edit.
I don't see anything saying invisibility still lets you get it off however. So I'm pretty sure it does not.
"Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible." (emphasis mine)
I understand the wording on uncanny dodge, i just don't see how this makes any logical sense...
When your interpretation of how an ability works conflicts with the mechanics, the mechanics are never wrong, your interpretation is. My suggestion would be, instead of questioning the rule, question your perception and come up with another mental picture of how this works (because yeah, that's exactly how it works).
you cant be "prepaired" for an attack from something you cant see/have no idea it is there...
But that's exactly what it lets you do. React to things that no normal person could react to.
Definition for Uncanny:
"having or seeming to have a supernatural or inexplicable basis; beyond the ordinary or normal; extraordinary"
Uncanny Dodge is something bordering on spidey-sense. It doesn't need to have a 'logical' explanation, because it defies what normal people can do. It lets the rogue react split-second to minute stimulae that a normal person would never even know about (the sound of rushing air as an unseen weapon swings through the air, the twang of a crossbow 300ft away). It's uncanny for a reason.
No improved uncanny dodge is what you get. If you wsnt something else you need to ask your dm.
Well guys, acording what you just have said: if you are a rougue who doesn't have 4 levels or more than a Barbarian (lv. 10). Dou you still may use feint in order to have a sneak attack? (I mean, even if you aren't actually 4 levels higher than that foe?)
Looks like Uncanny Dodge could use a bit of clarity.
It specifically says that you can't be caught flat-footed, but doesn't mention anything about being otherwise denied Dex to AC (with the exception of invisibility, but in an ambiguous way, since invisibility doesn't cause flat-footed). Also Uncanny Dodge has no level-based workarounds (unlike Improved Uncanny Dodge).
Now, my own read on it is that Unacanny Dodge prohibits being flat-footed, but does not otherwise affect conditions which deny Dex to AC. To prevent ridiculous situations (like someone under the effects of greater invisibility not getting sneak attack in the surprise round, but getting it in the next round), invisibility needs to be an exception.
A more general case can probably be made: A character with uncanny dodge cannot be denied their Dex bonus to AC due to not perceiving the source of the attack (flat-footed, blindness, invisibility, total concealment, or stealth), but other conditions which deny Dex to AC still work (cowering, helpless, pinned, or stunned, as well as being the victim of a feint).
Note that the ability to not be denied Dex to AC cannot be overcome in any way (within the limits noted above), unlike the ability to not be flanked, which requires a rogue 4 levels higher than the defending character.
Edit: note that the above is how I would run it. A strict reading says that only invisibility and the actual flat-footed state are overcome.
i understand the wording on uncanny dodge, i just don't see how this makes any logical sense...Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are two different abilities.
You can bypass Improved Uncanny Dodge by being 4 levels higher, but you cannot bypass Uncanny Dodge that way.
So, 20th level Rogue cannot catch a 16th level Barbarian Flatfooted, nor could they deny the Barbarian a dex bonus to AC by being invisible or feinting. The Rogue could, however, still flank them.
If you only want things that make logical sense, i imagine you have a loong list of house rules;)