I have enjoyed the philosophical talk. It's very interesting.
But, for me, what I am thinking about is specific things about the gods.
For example, all gods (but Rovagug) have agreed to keep Rovagug in prison. If there is anything happening that would release Rovagug, all gods will work to keep him in prison.
With that in mind, I can now make the gods mysterious. The group has a cleric. The cleric receives a vision to go stop a cult. It's not a cult of Rovagug but what they were about to discover would help Rovagug get out or weaken a seal or whatever. The PCs, and indeed the players themselves (I talk things out at times with my players) won't know any of this. They were told to go take care of them. If the cleric doesn't, he is fatigued or sickened or something. If this group doesn't have a cleric, they receive visions. Or a cleric comes and hires them.
So imagine that they are doing this and clerics to Asmodeus or Norgorber show up to do this as well. Can they work with them? Are they wondering if this correct? But maybe they have to work together for this quest.
So now I'm thinking that there are forty or fifty of these types of rules and whenever I start a campaign, I pick the ten or twelve that I want for this campaign. (I do a reset usually after ten years and then could repick which ones I use.)
Maybe all gods agree that they want to find out what happened to Aroden. The Good gods want to make sure it doesn't happen again. The Evil gods want to use it against the other gods! So, in my first rule, their agents can work together because there is no conflict of purpose. In this new rule, they are working against each other. And they don't know! Nor do they know why. It's just a command they have to follow (clerics) or quests from others.
Again, for me, *I* want to know these rules so that I can keep things consistent. Maybe, over several campaigns, the players can figure it out but it's still mysterious to the characters.
That's more what I was thinking about.
Again, though, fun philosophical stuff! Thanks!
I have been trying to come up with more "rules for the gods" and I think it's tough. It's tough because it means having to define, possibly pretty well, the rest of the rules. Further, I want the rules to be generic enough to apply to any god but have the possibility for conflict, as my above rule did. I'm also not up on the full cosmology of what they have done for the world.
For example, is the Far Realm Cthulhu like in that they want to wipe stuff out? Or is it "merely" the birth place of aberrations? Are there fey in the sense of Maab and Titania? Or is it just a place where the elves and sprites are from? Are the gods fighting among themselves? Do they keep it contained or does it spill over to the Material Plane? Are the gods constrained to their spheres of influence? or can they gain and lose them?
I like knowing this stuff about the game world. As the GM, I think that's the sort of thing that I need to know so that I can present a consistent world. Not that I have the world memorized or can't learn things. But I think I do need to know as much as I can, especially about the big picture things and one of those is what the gods do and why they might direct their followers, or a group of capable adventurers to do something. I don't need a mystery as I GM! But that's me.
From all of the stuff that I have read from various gazettes, the old setting book, and Gods and Magic, I have at least Sean K. Reynolds explanation for why the gods refuse to take an active role.
It starts first with a non aggression pact. In the battle with Rovagugg at the dawn of Golarion, the entities that survived became the original pantheon of Golarion gods and godesses. While some minor entities were killed in the battle, the gods that survived and manifested their divinity with Golarion assumed they could not be killed. Still, the gods knew that each had their own domains, were of equal power, and each agreed that open war between deities must not be done lest they rip asunder dimensions in the crossfire. They would limit themselves to visiting, acting through agents, and rarely making direct deific contact.
(Supposition: I've always suspected that the reason the gods usually relied on imprisonment rather than going for the kill for gods like Zon Kuthon and Rovagugg was through this assumption that killing gods of Golarion couldn't be done.)
Then Lamashtu, an upstart god, killed Curchanus, the ancient god of beasts and travel. Not only was Curchanus dead, Lamashtu actually stole his power over travel by killing him. No records indicate whether there were any tense standoffs in the cosmos when the gods realized that not only could they be killed, but by killing other gods they could steal their power. In the end, the gods agreed that while it was a surprise that the gods could die, logically a god could kill another god. The non aggression pact was maintained, the gods were just more wary of each other and still assumed that they were safe from everything but each other. (It should be noted that Ydersius is not listed as a dead god in Gods and Magic, but a living god separated into two halves and made useless, simply waiting to be rejoined).
Then Tar Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, a mortal man twisted by a necromantic trap into something hideous and new to unlife, fought the goddess Arazni. She manifested bodily to kill a mere mortal, something that was still allowed. Tar Baphon didn't just kill Arazni, he humilated her, tortured her, then discarded her corpse like a piece of trash.
A god had been killed by a mortal. This was impossible. If a mortal could kill a god once, it could happen again. The gods would only act through heralds, followers, and obscurity from now on. They were afraid.
Except Aroden. Aroden was gonna show em all. He was gonna come down bodily and usher in the human moral utopia. Not only that, he posted the date he was gonna show up, the location, the place settings, after party etc. "Come at me, bro!" Aroden shouted to the universe. Everyone including the gods were watching on the hour he was supposed to arrive. The hour came.
THEN HE DIED INSTANTLY. Not only that, but his death destroyed the power of prophecy permanently, even from gods specifically tied to prophecy. The gods had never lost power before. It was also hard not to make the connection that Aroden died effortlessly during the most defiant act of Golarion manifestation in the history of time. He was seemingly killed by nothing. The gods are afraid now of not only dying themselves but of a reckless god dying and destroying another shared power from the domain of the gods. Now even direct use of power by a deity is considered taboo between the gods.
That's all I know. Nobody really knows how Aroden died, why gods died, whether they are getting weaker, whether divine intervention exposes the gods to danger, etc. This is just paraphrasing gleaned from multiple sources but mostly Gods and Magic by Sean K. Reynolds.
A couple of things:
1) Technically Arazni was a Demigod, not a full-fledged deity. This is fairly important distinction as demigods are of measurable power on par with Demon Lords and Arch-Devils and quite a bit weaker than true deities.
2) While there is no absolute confirmation one way or the other for why the gods imprisoned Rovagug over killing him (so what I`m going to say is as much conjecture as anything else); I`ve read all the lore as heavily implying that Rovagug is so powerful that they couldn't kill him. They didn't really have a choice in the matter - imprisoning him was the best they could hope for. Certainly, they were aware that gods can be killed by other gods since Rovagug chewed up several of them during the great battle, and they weren't necessarily "minor" deities as it's implied that several of these unknown gods were as powerful as the surviving participants.
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Jon Goranson wrote:
For example, is the Far Realm Cthulhu like in that they want to wipe stuff out? Or is it "merely" the birth place of aberrations? Are there fey in the sense of Maab and Titania? Or is it just a place where the elves and sprites are from? Are the gods fighting among themselves? Do they keep it contained or does it spill over to the Material Plane? Are the gods constrained to their spheres of influence? or can they gain and lose them?
You might want to read Lovecraft a bit more. You know about aliens,right? Like the ones in Independence Day, who don't want to talk to us, they just want what we have and wipe us out? Those guys however are practically native compared to how alien the Mythos and it's creatures are to ordinary folk.
Cthulhu and his bunch aren't just alien. They're supremely alien, they're so alien that reality itself along with sanity unravels around them. They don't have to be actively motivated to wipe out or corrupt life on Golarion, their very presence, or even just a good projection alone does that. Which also means that their followers are themselves so alienated from the rest of humanity or meta-humanity that they themselves are profoundly insane, even though they might appear and act normal.
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Jon Goranson wrote: I have been trying to come up with more "rules for the gods" and I think it's tough. Rules are what you use to bind PC actions. Gods function as your story background. If you bring them actively into the game, they are your vehicle of "GM Fiat". Thems all the rules you need.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Block Knight wrote: A couple of things:
1) Technically Arazni was a Demigod, not a full-fledged deity. This is fairly important distinction as demigods are of measurable power on par with Demon Lords and Arch-Devils and quite a bit weaker than true deities.
2) While there is no absolute confirmation one way or the other for why the gods imprisoned Rovagug over killing him (so what I`m going to say is as much conjecture as anything else); I`ve read all the lore as heavily implying that Rovagug is so powerful that they couldn't kill him. They didn't really have a choice in the matter - imprisoning him was the best they could hope for. Certainly, they were aware that gods can be killed by other gods since Rovagug chewed up several of them during the great battle, and they weren't necessarily "minor" deities as it's implied that several of these unknown gods were as powerful as the surviving participants.
If killing was an option, they probably would have, but given that apparantly just binding him required the all out effort of ALL the gods combined, it seems like they chose the only option available outside of letting him burn up the entire chessboard.
I kind of like the Dragonlance perspective, where the gods took various parts of creating or progressing the world according to their spheres of influence, and stay a lot more behind the scenes, but do actively interact with the world, and have a personal investment in it.
LazarX: That's basically my thoughts on it as well. You don't imprison something like that unless you have to.
LazarX wrote: Jon Goranson wrote: I have been trying to come up with more "rules for the gods" and I think it's tough. Rules are what you use to bind PC actions. Gods function as your story background. If you bring them actively into the game, they are your vehicle of "GM Fiat". Thems all the rules you need. I'm not explaining myself well. I apologize.
I see my role as DM as directing the story. Because I have the most influence over it, I should know these things about the world to know what happens when the PCs interact with it. That's why I want to define the answers to these questions. I think game worlds should have those big questions answered, and maybe even most "medium" questions answered but leave the small details up to me. But that's me and I'm probably in the minority of that.
(That does work for Cthulhu (story and RPG) as that's what that mythos has done as I understand it. The PCs are trying to stop the powers from manifesting on earth and destroying it, not out of malice but by their existence. It's just that they see and learn too much and so are driven mad or are killed by those that would see the world end.)
To me, as a DM, I should know the rules of the world, including what the gods are doing. The gods should not be a mystery to me. I personally get enough mystery when my PCs go off in completely differently directions from what I expected!
Since I'm in control of everything that appears in the world, I agree that when I do something, it should have a dramatic or thematic element to it. But I want that element to follow some sort of rule or reason. I want it to be rooted in the rules of the world. I haven't seen anything in Golarion, but I am NOT read up on everything, that is like Cthulhu or that mysterious. The only mystery I was trying to explain for myself was why the gods help mortals when they don't seem to need to. In the end, the explanation for that seemed to be because it is in their best interests to make sure souls come to their plane. Or at least not to their enemies plane.
I don't want the world to one hundred percent revolve around PCs actions. I want things happening to make the world feel alive and that the PCs can influence things, sometimes a lot, but there are still things that happen outside of their actions.
Maybe the gods task their mortal followers with finding a way to kill Rovagug? And it will take time but maybe there is a group for that within a few churches/faiths. Or maybe Golarion is important because it is the focal point of Rovagug's prison and it's only from here that he can be released? Maybe it's here that his worshipers hear his words more clearly than anywhere else? That could bring planar travelers here! Is Rovagug Cthulhu of Golarion? Is Destruction of the mind insanity?
I agree that apparently the gods knew gods could die. So why did the fact that they could die keep surprising them? Or that new ones could emerge when this is not new anymore? Does Rovagug represent the ending for gods? Did Rovagug manage to reach out ever so slightly and in doing so, he is what killed Aroden?
If I have something like the aliens from Independence Day or Cthulhu show up in my game, there should be a reason for it and I should know what that reason is. But that's me.
Thanks for the good discussion!
The Block Knight wrote: LazarX: That's basically my thoughts on it as well. You don't imprison something like that unless you have to. So, this is what I want answered. Why couldn't they kill him? Why did they imprison him? How does this background serve the story of the world of Golarion?
If the answer is that Rovagug is a godkiller and can't be killed, it makes sense why the gods did what they did. It also gives a reason to keep him imprisoned. But then do the new gods understand this? Or do they think they could be the one to take him out?
And what else are the gods doing? They can't be spending all their time worrying about that? So what else occupies the gods? And in answering that, I can answer why they have their followers do something. Individually, it might not make any sense to the followers but it does to the gods, and me as the DM.
Thanks!
"Devil's Advocate" wrote: I kind of like the Dragonlance perspective, where the gods took various parts of creating or progressing the world according to their spheres of influence, and stay a lot more behind the scenes, but do actively interact with the world, and have a personal investment in it. And I agree.
Is this all they do? Do they merely like their creation and are trying to help them? Is it the TRON analogy from earlier? Or do they gain something out of it?
I'm personally looking for that next level that gives the gods a place in the world, no different than when a high level Red Mantis Assassin is placed or ruler or anything. Sure, a lot of the NPCs function because they are needed. You don't detail every farmer because you know the world needs farmers. But when you deal with high level or creatures of power, shouldn't we know their purpose?
Thanks!
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jon Goranson wrote: The Block Knight wrote: LazarX: That's basically my thoughts on it as well. You don't imprison something like that unless you have to. So, this is what I want answered. Why couldn't they kill him? Why did they imprison him? How does this background serve the story of the world of Golarion?
If the answer is that Rovagug is a godkiller and can't be killed, it makes sense why the gods did what they did. It also gives a reason to keep him imprisoned. But then do the new gods understand this? Or do they think they could be the one to take him out?
And what else are the gods doing? They can't be spending all their time worrying about that? So what else occupies the gods? And in answering that, I can answer why they have their followers do something. Individually, it might not make any sense to the followers but it does to the gods, and me as the DM.
Thanks! I hope you're not looking or an answer bound in mechanics, because you're not going to find one. Your basic problem is that you probably need some exposure to literature that will give you the right perspective. Here are a couple of suggestions.
1. The Avatar Series. It features three mortals brought up to positons of major divinityhood and contains object lessons on what happens when gods have too much of a mortal perspective on their job. Gods are very omniscient within their portfolios, but when viewing matters outside them, tend to suffer from extreme cases of tunnel vision.
2. Pier's Anthony's Incarnation series. It shows how portfolios define and limit the great powers, and why when they contest each other, it can't be done directly.
In short however, the Gods' time and focus are essentially mostly taken up with their portfolios. The God of Magic spends most of it's time just making sure magic works the way it should, without prejudice as to who is using it and for what, as long as the wheel itself is kept turning. But the key thing is what goes for elves goes even more for divinities, these folks aren't super powered humans, what they are, has made them more powerful than humans, but also far more constrained.
Could probably add a dash of “no one knows what the gods agreed to with Asmodeus" when imprisoning Rovagug. Maybe part of the agreement was no direct open confrontation between gods. For Asmodeus god of scheming and rules this could be quite beneficial. Maybe Asmodeus will unleash Rovagug if everyone starts trotting out the big guns. Whatever the reasons, they exist and will probably always stay hidden from mortals. Wouldn't it be funny if all the gods recognized the necessary existence of the others even if they are diametrically opposed?
While I have already stated my theory about direct intervention weakening or killing the gods, Traps seem to be a fundamental coincidence concerning the death of Curchanus and Arazni.
Curchanus was lured to an area that Lamashtu had trapped beforehand with monsters and demons. Though the gods are treated as equals except where Rovagugg is concerned, the ambush seemed to tip the balance enough that Lamashtu was able to finish Curchanus.
Tar Baphon was once a mortal Necromancer who decided to kill Aroden coincidentally depending on a trap. He built a great well on the Isle of Terror and just kept filling it with power from the negative energy plane. His hope was to commit such dark acts of debauchery and evil that Aroden himself would descend from the heavens and try to stop him, at which point he would unleash the stored reserves of the negative energy plane on Aroden, hopefully having enough to kill the god. Tar Baphon's trap backfired, killing him and eventually morphing him with enough negative energy to kill a god into a lich. Tar Baphon ends up killing Arazni, but only after absorbing god ending amounts of negative energy. So there is a question whether Tar Baphon's ability to kill Arazni may be unique because he is an unliving embodiment of that negative energy trap.
Traps and ambushes lend a new theory to Aroden's death. Aroden seemed primed for ambush. Everyone knew where Aroden was going to be and when. If someone wanted to lay a trap for a god, they would need those exact details.
Plus, we already know that the gods can be trapped literally, imprisoned like Rovagugg and Zon Kuthon. Perhaps the gods remain distant due to fear of such a trap or ambush?
LazarX wrote: The Block Knight wrote:
2) While there is no absolute confirmation one way or the other for why the gods imprisoned Rovagug over killing him (so what I`m going to say is as much conjecture as anything else); I`ve read all the lore as heavily implying that Rovagug is so powerful that they couldn't kill him. They didn't really have a choice in the matter - imprisoning him was the best they could hope for. Certainly, they were aware that gods can be killed by other gods since Rovagug chewed up several of them during the great battle, and they weren't necessarily "minor" deities as it's implied that several of these unknown gods were as powerful as the surviving participants.
If killing was an option, they probably would have, but given that apparantly just binding him required the all out effort of ALL the gods combined, it seems like they chose the only option available outside of letting him burn up the entire chessboard. My own personal theory is that they could have killed Rovagug if they'd wanted to. However, doing so probably would have required so much force as to basically wipe out the material plane, or at least large swaths of it.
Essentially, the collateral damage would have been so high that they decided to imprison him rather than have to start over from scratch and rebuild the world.
I think I need to explain a bit more.
I'm looking more to run a living world where things happen, even when the PCs aren't around. Maybe I'm running RotRL but have events of CotCT happen off screen at the same time. Depending on my needs, maybe it goes differently or not.
To do that, I need to know who the players are. The local NPCs, such as the sheriff or count, the country level NPCs, the powerful NPCs, the demons and even the gods. No, I don't want it so granular to know that the god X will be at Y on such and such a time, although I might need that at points. Just the high level rules/guidelines/ideas that the gods follow. Maybe each powerful being/creature gets their own special rule beyond following their spheres of influence.
I'm doing this because I'm testing Realm Works and trying to put this information in there and track it. I also understand that Chronicles of the Righteous, as well as Book of the Damned, mean there is a lot to track! So, I might not track everything. But I want an idea of where they are and what they are doing.
Think of it like this. There aren't a lot of high level NPCs out there, as per the notes on NPCs in the main book as well as other threads on here. Maybe there is a high priest in Magnimar that can cast Raise Dead and he's the only one in the area. I don't want him sitting around waiting for the PCs to show up. I want to make a bit of a backstory on him. Even if I do the 1E think of % in lair, I want to know why he isn't there. Maybe he had family that he had to go see. Maybe he was making a pilgrimage, depending on when it is in the year. Maybe it's a holy day and he can't cast raise dead on it. Whatever the world has already set down as the rules of the world, I want to follow as best as I can. I also want to know them and have them written down so that I'm consistent with them.
LazarX wrote: I hope you're not looking or an answer bound in mechanics, because you're not going to find one. I'm not. I'm looking for role playing rules, or maybe I should say strong guidelines, for the gods. As I said above, I want it for most of the NPCs and other influential NPCs as well. I'm not looking to pin the gods down on specific things but instead have something that makes them understandable to me, the DM running a specific campaign.
LazarX wrote: Your basic problem is that you probably need some exposure to literature that will give you the right perspective. Here are a couple of suggestions.
1. The Avatar Series. It features three mortals brought up to positons of major divinityhood and contains object lessons on what happens when gods have too much of a mortal perspective on their job. Gods are very omniscient within their portfolios, but when viewing matters outside them, tend to suffer from extreme cases of tunnel vision.
Got any more suggestions?
I didn't like the Avatar series itself, and am not fond of Greenwood's fiction writing for some reason, even though I love FR and his game world. Not sure how that has happened. However, if you are using the avatar series as a baseline for the Golarion gods, that makes them more like the Greek gods, and so limited to a single world (solar system) (a la AO) rather than movers and shakers of the vast multiverse. I'm fine with that but I'm not sure that's what you meant to do to them.
Having said that, I think the follow up books to the Avatar series, when the "gods have too much of a mortal perspective" was shown quite well! What Cyric does with the Cyrinishod as well as how Midnight/Mystra deals with magic was very good. I also loved Kelemvor's story as well. So, if you are suggesting that for the gods, okay! I can get behind that!
LazarX wrote: 2. Pier's Anthony's Incarnation series. It shows how portfolios define and limit the great powers, and why when they contest each other, it can't be done directly. Again, this seems to be at odds with how the gods are defined in the source books. I liked this series but not sure that's how I would want to play them in a PF game. This micro-focuses the gods on their portfolios but requires no overlap. Basically, it would require a complete revamp of the gods, reducing one god to one sphere. (Good, Magic, Evil, Plants, Animals, etc.) You can't have overlap in this scenario, imo. But if that was done, it could work quite well.
LazarX wrote: In short however, the Gods' time and focus are essentially mostly taken up with their portfolios. The God of Magic spends most of it's time just making sure magic works the way it should, without prejudice as to who is using it and for what, as long as the wheel itself is kept turning. But the key thing is what goes for elves... Not sure what you meant by that last statement about the elves.
As for the rest of what you say, again, then how do you explain overlap? And as I said upthread, I have no problem with gods being the reason that the rivers flow the way they do and without the gods making sure that happens, the rivers might stop or flow up or whatever. However, if that's the case, then what about ideals? How do you measure Honor? And what does it mean if the god of Honor is gone? Is birth better with or without the god? Do the gods of the ideals define the ideals? And again, how can they have more than one? Or are the gods created due to mortals striving for an ideal? If the gods merely exist, instead of any kind of natural laws (or physics, biology, chemistry), then I also agree that they would have to spend most of their time making sure these things happen.
I'm just not sure those are the best uses for the gods from a storytelling perspective but I'm sure I could use them that way if that's what they were.
So, again, as my previous "rules", I'm looking for things like that. Ar rule could be that a god must make sure his sphere of influence works at all times. Then they have secondary concerns like making sure Rovagug stays imprisoned. Then they want to find out what happened to Aroden. Then they want to ???
Thanks!
Tamago wrote: My own personal theory is that they could have killed Rovagug if they'd wanted to. However, doing so probably would have required so much force as to basically wipe out the material plane, or at least large swaths of it.
Essentially, the collateral damage would have been so high that they decided to imprison him rather than have to start over from scratch and rebuild the world.
If mortals have souls and all go to an afterlife, why not destroy the material plane to get rid of such an evil? If they aren't dependent on mortals, and the consensus up thread seems to indicate they aren't, then why not recreate the mortal plane and make it better? Why allow such evil to exist? Further, wasn't this something done eons ago, maybe before mortal life existed? Or early on?
Just wondering!
Thanks!
I think part of the issue is that I need to get Gods and Magic and read the "expanded" entries on the gods instead of using just the Inner Sea Guide.
I loved the Faiths and Avatars book, and the two after that, especially in how it gave pictures of each god and spoke about their holidays. So maybe I can find some of the answers in there.
Thanks again for the good discussion!
Yar!
Throughout all of this, I could only think of one thing: link (very poor quality... alas, I couldn't find a good quality one)
Transcript:
FUTURAMA wrote: Bender: Cool, cool. ... I bet a lot of people pray to you, huh?
God: Yes, but there are so many asking so much. After a while you just tune them out.
Bender: You know, I was god once.
God: Yes, I saw. You were doing well until everyone died.
Bender: It was awful. I tried helping them. I tried not helping them. But in the end, I couldn't do them any good! Do you think what I did was wrong?
God: Right and wrong are just words. What matters is what you do.
Bender: Yeah, I know! That's why I asked if what I did... oh forget it.
God: Bender, being god isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you, and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safe-cracker, or a pick-pocket...
Bender: ...or a guy who burns down a barn for the insurance money!
God: Yes! If you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Jon Goranson wrote: Okay, but why is it Mutually Assured Destruction? If the gods don't get power from mortals in any way, what do they care what happens to mortals? It's not MAD from the gods standpoint, it's "acceptable losses" at best!
I'm trying to figure this out as well, so a lot of this is me talking out loud.
I agree they aren't omnipotent. But what are their motivations and what will they do to achieve those? Are the good gods sheparding us because they are good? Are they just opposing evil? Is evil messing with us because they are powerful bullies and they can?
I didn't see anything like the 3E Deities and Demigods for Pathfinder. That defined gods, in terms of how many avatars they could have and their relative power levels. I think it was in FR specifically that the gods got their power from the number of worshipers they have but Deities and Demigods might have done that as well. That gives ALL of the gods an incentive to protect mortals. In this case, maybe evil is more likely to sacrifice some but so would good if the stakes were that high.
What I'm saying is that nothing like that exists based on what I have read and responses here. So, why do these powerful beings care about the mortals on Golarion? Why do the deities give mortals that worship them part of their power?
The NPC: Well, if the gods are the reason for everything, then there are no natural laws because things happen due to the gods' will. If there are natural laws, then are the gods needed?
And with those questions, and with all things being equal, why would anymore make a "deal with the devil" when you can make a deal with the angels? If that's an option, why ever deal with evil? I mean, the gods seem to be divided into obvious good/evil camps. If you can invoke both sides and get them, or their representative, to appear, why call upon evil?
Not that this would make a paradise and not that there is not seduction or weakness or other reasons that evil would happen.
I wasn't fond of the "deities...
I think the MAD scenario is about escalation. God A sends a human to kill an animal that is special to God B. God B sends an outsider to kill the human for the murder of the animal. God A feels offended that God B sent an outsider, and send his herald to teach that outsider (and God B) a lesson. That outsider happened to be friends with the herald of God C, so the herald calls that out to God C and they team up with God B to somehow sanction God A. God D and E, allies of God A, do not care about how this started, and will not stand for the sanctioning of God A... So on, and so forth, until Groetus tells everyone to get off his lawn.
About why they care for mortals? If we assume what is written on the fluff of Princes of Darkness to be true (about the Seal, Ihys and Asmodeus), then mortals are, in a way, part of the gods, and their actions make them become part of other gods upon their deaths, which is something I bet some gods (probably the evil ones) dislike. And the good ones care because they are, well, good.
Now, why would mortals deal with evil? I can think of some reasons:
Mortals do not necessarily want to do good stuff. If they ask a representative of the upper planes for secksay powers, the representative is more likely to want to know what the mortal intends to do with the power, how the mortal has behaved so far in his life, make note of his virtues, his weaknesses, or how the newly supported mortal could mess with the other mortals that the representative is invested on. Evil representatives, most of the time, are just likely to be out for themselves, and then they will just ensure the mortal cannot mess with their plans and off you go.
TL:DR - Good has "higher standards" to who they help, and why. Evil cares less about the "bad" consequences, so they are not as anal on who they help, or why, as long as they get what they want.
Another reason, is that good Powers have a tendency of wanting their people to grow, and be strong, and be all they can be. Evil Powers are, most of the time, happy having tiny little slaves that cater to their every whim. Good Powers want their followers to have some kind of autonomy, to make good decisions for themselves (after all, being forced to do good deeds does not make a person good). They would like that their followers, when presented with choice between a good but hard solution and an evil but easy solution to a problem, will choose the former because that is their vision of a good universe: good people helping each other because it is the right thing to do.
Evil gods... they want to get ahead. Period. And they teach to their followers that if THEY also look out for #1, they will have advantages over the other people. So, a mortal might face the choice "You can be a rich king that sleeps with whatever person you want to sleep with, but you have to murder the current king, lie about his whereabouts and kill people in the name of Evilzilla once per month and let their minions run the country for you, assuring you will not have to work another day of your life, or you can be a farmer, following a kind and just king that earned his place there and keeps everyone as happy as humanly possible, although all have to work hard (including him) to make things like this."
Not all men will make the same choice here. Sometimes, evil is better for YOU. Specially if you could not care less about your mortal soul (hello there, wis 8 fighters).
Does it make sense to anyone?
Also, wall of text, HO! :p
EDIT: for typos.
Jon Goranson wrote: "Devil's Advocate" wrote: I kind of like the Dragonlance perspective, where the gods took various parts of creating or progressing the world according to their spheres of influence, and stay a lot more behind the scenes, but do actively interact with the world, and have a personal investment in it. And I agree.
Is this all they do? Do they merely like their creation and are trying to help them? Is it the TRON analogy from earlier? Or do they gain something out of it? It's a combination of different things. In a lot of the setting, the gods have been absent, (to a point), or very behind the scenes. Most of their interactions with the world is directly though their avatar's and high priests (if they have any), but typically they only serve to push people to act on their own.
In Dragonlance, the concept of the Balance is pretty strong, with some pretty bad things happening if either Good or Evil, Law or Chaos holds sway for to long. The Evil deities want mortals to literally be slaves, serving and worshiping them for thier own power. The Good deities want mortals to choose to be good and to serve others. The Neutral deities don't really care so much, as long as the mortals are able to choose for themselves, (and Neutrality in DL is much more the old school, active Neutrality fighting to make sure no one side grows too strong). Most of the time, the deities on all sides will take the guise of a weaker appearing individual to influence or manipulate others to act on thier own rather than leading the charge or sending out the minions on specific missions. It does happen too, but those are usually notable exceptions.
Caladfel wrote: I think the MAD scenario is about escalation. God A sends a human to kill an animal that is special to God B. God B sends an outsider to kill the human for the murder of the animal. God A feels offended that God B sent an outsider, and send his herald to teach that outsider (and God B) a lesson. That outsider happened to be friends with the herald of God C, so the herald calls that out to God C and they team up with God B to somehow sanction God A. God D and E, allies of God A, do not care about how this started, and will not stand for the sanctioning of God A... So on, and so forth, until Groetus tells everyone to get off his lawn.
About why they care for mortals? If we assume what is written on the fluff of Princes of Darkness to be true (about the Seal, Ihys and Asmodeus), then mortals are, in a way, part of the gods, and their actions make them become part of other gods upon their deaths, which is something I bet some gods (probably the evil ones) dislike. And the good ones care because they are, well, good.
Okay.
But. :)
If the gods get nothing from mortals except their souls on their death regardless if they do anything, why do they care? Again, it could be to nudge people/souls to a particular place but again, what does that mean? They don't seem to gain power from the souls that I can find. So even that doesn't seem to matter. If that's the case, then it's not just why do they care but do they even notice?
I have a friend who has a theory that Harry Potter was good because the story needed it. It was forced that way or there is no story. But there is no reason why Harry couldn't have chosen Slytherin and become a bully like his cousin, which is all he knew. He only knew about power and being abused and most don't break out of that cycle.
The gods remind me of the same thing. They are good (or evil) because the game needs that. The game has this divine component and it needs representatives of that component. The designers could have created Golarion exactly the same but removed the Core Deities and it doesn't seem as if much would have changed. I say this because they have the Cthulhu like outsiders to explain madness or the demons or other powerful entities to give divine power.
Further, please remember my point. I, as the DM, don't want a mystery as to why a story element was added. I want to know what purpose something serves. (I actually want a list of things they might be doing so I can choose the purpose they will serve and then make them a mystery in my own games.) Again, at the moment, without knowing what the gods are doing, why they care about mortals and what purpose they serve, there reason for being seems to be "because."
Overall, I have relooked and reread some things, although I still haven't picked up the Gods book, and if anything, it makes the design/purpose of the gods even more muddled and confusing. Look at Rovagug. What does it mean that he's "imprisoned?" Nothing as far as I can tell. His write up as a god is no different than any other god. He still has five domains that can be picked, has a specified weapon and has worshipers. Those worshipers are not limited in the spells they can get. So, what the heck is this imprisonment? Is it more of a House Arrest and he's sneaking out to do things? :D
Don't get me wrong! I get the tradition of gods in DND and myths. I get why they are there. I was hoping for some collaboration on some of my ideas but no big deal.
I'm looking at PF like a game, no matter how complex, such as monopoly. Monopoly has no rule about Free Parking giving money but most people "know" that rule. Any game is going to be customized and tinkered with. Gods in Golarion just seem "to be" though without any other thought to them but I haven't read everything and could easily be missing it.
Perhaps think of it this way. Think of them as Chekov's Gods. I don't think most campaigns would be run to hit every country listed in the campaign setting. Each area is its own separate entity, or it can be. Each chapter of the ICWG gives us something to use in an adventure, from Life to ideas about what adventures are like. (Factions could probably fall into the same category as Gods, really, but that's off topic.) But we have this whole chapter on Gods that could be cut and not change anything. That just seems wrong to me but I think I'm alone in that.
Thanks!
"Devil's Advocate" wrote: Jon Goranson wrote: "Devil's Advocate" wrote: I kind of like the Dragonlance perspective, where the gods took various parts of creating or progressing the world according to their spheres of influence, and stay a lot more behind the scenes, but do actively interact with the world, and have a personal investment in it. And I agree.
Is this all they do? Do they merely like their creation and are trying to help them? Is it the TRON analogy from earlier? Or do they gain something out of it? It's a combination of different things. In a lot of the setting, the gods have been absent, (to a point), or very behind the scenes. Most of their interactions with the world is directly though their avatar's and high priests (if they have any), but typically they only serve to push people to act on their own.
In Dragonlance, the concept of the Balance is pretty strong, with some pretty bad things happening if either Good or Evil, Law or Chaos holds sway for to long. The Evil deities want mortals to literally be slaves, serving and worshiping them for thier own power. The Good deities want mortals to choose to be good and to serve others. The Neutral deities don't really care so much, as long as the mortals are able to choose for themselves, (and Neutrality in DL is much more the old school, active Neutrality fighting to make sure no one side grows too strong). Most of the time, the deities on all sides will take the guise of a weaker appearing individual to influence or manipulate others to act on thier own rather than leading the charge or sending out the minions on specific missions. It does happen too, but those are usually notable exceptions. In regards to my above reply, though, the DL gods were shown to care and actively tried to help mortals, whatever that help meant. I think the big revelation in one of the books was that it wasn't the gods that stopped talking, it was mortals who stopped listening. In fact, given the adventures of Fizban, er Zifnab, in their other book, as well as Dragon articles, DL gods seem to be quite the meddlers who are trying to show mortals their choice or shape them the way they want them to be. Great! I can get behind that!
Again, the gods as described in Golarion don't seem to be consistent, re: Rovagug's imprisonment as I talked about above, and so they leave me confused. What's the reason to have gods, what do they do, other than to support the divine component of the PF game?
Thanks!
Thats true, but that must be pit into perspective a bit. It was afterthe balance had swung to far on Good's side for to long. Good had won against a lot of evil and started to find more "evils" to eradicate, turning on wizards, non-human races, and even Neutral faiths before the gods basically said "thats enough" and nearly destroyed the world and went silent, removing all of their truely faithful divine followers for a period until the world was again ready. It was a method of teaching and healing, though, not of punishment.
Much later on they all also agreed to remove themselves from the world rather than have it destroyed.
Jon Goranson wrote: Caladfel wrote:
About why they care for mortals? If we assume what is written on the fluff of Princes of Darkness to be true (about the Seal, Ihys and Asmodeus), then mortals are, in a way, part of the gods, and their actions make them become part of other gods upon their deaths, which is something I bet some gods (probably the evil ones) dislike. And the good ones care because they are, well, good.
Further, please remember my point. I, as the DM, don't want a mystery as to why a story element was added. I want to know what purpose something serves. (I actually want a list of things they might be doing so I can choose the purpose they will serve and then make them a mystery in my own games.) Again, at the moment, without knowing what the gods are doing, why they care about mortals and what purpose they serve, there reason for being seems to be "because." Oh, sorry. Got caught on the whole philosophical debate thing. Ok, things that the gods might really be and why they do the stuff they do?
Let us say the gods exist and influence all of the worlds contained within the material plane. That means Golarion could be "just another world". Let us say it is not: it is the world where Rovagug, that destroyed a crapload of other worlds, is imprisoned.
Why was he imprisoned here? It was what they had in hand at the moment. Why wasn't he relocated? No one wants to touch it. What does it mean to be "imprisoned"? It means he cannot rampage over worlds, nor can influence any world but this own.
Why the gods cannot be more active within the surface of Golarion? When they imprisoned Rovagug, the gods used their power together as never before, and created a set of laws of... let's call it 'physics', that impede gods to go there and affect the world directly. It means that when they come here, they have to be fighters, wizards, clerics, use spells, have bodies, which mean that they are hardcore and powerful, but in the reality of Golarion, they are just overpowered people.
They care about mortals, because that is the way they keep tabs on each other, and they created mortals to maintain the prison.
How about that?
Thanks, Caladfel! That's what I was thinking about, ideas like that, and I like what you have suggested!
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jon Goranson wrote: Again, the gods as described in Golarion don't seem to be consistent, re: Rovagug's imprisonment as I talked about above, and so they leave me confused. What's the reason to have gods, what do they do, other than to support the divine component of the PF game?
Thanks!
They provide BACKGROUND. In whatever venue you use divnities for, they're part of the reason the world is the way it is.
You don't need to plot what your Gods are "doing". Because unless it's a very unusual campaign, it's not going to be part of the program. They are, they have been, and they will be. The only time divinities actions become particularly specific is during catastrophic, world-changing events. In which case, things happen to justify whatever change you're going to impose.
Paizo leaves much of this kind of material blank for a very good reason... For home GMs to crib in their personal margins in.
LazarX wrote: They provide BACKGROUND. In whatever venue you use divnities for, they're part of the reason the world is the way it is.
You don't need to plot what your Gods are "doing". Because unless it's a very unusual campaign, it's not going to be part of the program. They are, they have been, and they will be. The only time divinities actions become particularly specific is during catastrophic, world-changing events. In which case, things happen to justify whatever change you're going to impose.
Paizo leaves much of this kind of material blank for a very good reason... For home GMs to crib in their personal margins in.
And if that's all you want for your group, then there you go. I happen to want more and was asking for ideas on it. Why be down on what I want for my group?
Actually, how about answering these questions instead. What kind of background do they provide in your group? When you do use them, or they come out of the background, what are they doing? What are they having their followers do? Do they appear directly or indirectly? Do they only appear where they have their most prominent temples? Or do they go anywhere? Does their appearance create followers that build a temple there? Do they only react to other gods' plans, that hurt lots of people? Or do they ask for small acts of kindness? Do they react to a bad ruler or power hungry individual or only demons or other non material plane threats?
Thanks!
Apparently, I'm just impatient!
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