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I'm working on a Magus at the moment and I was thinking about taking the "Bladebound" archtype because I wanted to create a Tiefling Magus that has his fiendish father's soul trapped in the blade and his father, is trying to eventually take over and posses his son's body.
Now there is a discussion at the moment about the "Bladebound" Magus and the possibility of adding enchantments to the blade by buying them through crafting. Well it's still an ongoing discussion but I got thinking. I would actually be better off taking a normal Magus and just asking the DM if I could eventually have an intelligent weapon that goes with my concept.
I like the concept of the bladebound and all but you are essentially stuck with just a + 5 weapon while everyone else has the possibility of going all the way to + 10 (+5 enhancements & + 5 properties).
What do you think?
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You could. Bladebound has some nifty bonuses besides just getting a free enchant, though (and the Arcane Pool makes up for the fact that your weapon technically is only a +5 weapon at higher levels, where you should have plenty of points in both your and the weapon's pools).
If your DM is okay with it, he could totally let you have an intelligent weapon. But it's entirely within the realm of DM Fiat.
I like the concept. What kind of fiend would be in the sword?
I'm working on a Magus at the moment and I was thinking about taking the "Bladebound" archtype because I wanted to create a Tiefling Magus that has his fiendish father's soul trapped in the blade and his father, is trying to eventually take over and posses his son's body.
Now there is a discussion at the moment about the "Bladebound" Magus and the possibility of adding enchantments to the blade by buying them through crafting. Well it's still an ongoing discussion but I got thinking. I would actually be better off taking a normal Magus and just asking the DM if I could eventually have an intelligent weapon that goes with my concept.
I like the concept of the bladebound and all but you are essentially stuck with just a + 5 weapon while everyone else has the possibility of going all the way to + 10 (+5 enhancements & + 5 properties).
What do you think?
If you end up running under the understanding of being unable to further enchant the black blade, and you can live without the extra cookies the BB gives like energy substitution, teleport blade, unbreakable, etc., AND your GM agrees to provide you with an intelligent weapon, tthen yeah...from an optimization perspective there's not a lot left the archetype would have going for it.
That said, it would take a pretty nice GM to give a player an intelligent weapon of any kind before level 3. So the bladebound's comes online much sooner in all likelihood.
OTOH, unless you play an evil Magus, the ordinary magus with an intelligent blade actually fits your fluff/story better than a bladebound IMO, since the BB always has the same alignment as its wielder. Seems fitting to me that the fiendish father who strives to possess his son would be of an opposed alignment (therefore making it more likely for there to be differences of opinion and the resulting Ego battles). That's just opinion based on an incomplete view of your character though...could be way off, but cool concept either way ;-)
I'd say it would be pretty easy as a GM to accomodate this character concept. I'd have you buy your weapon and such as normal, and just have the weapon have the intelligence without any enhancements and you pay to upgrade those as you go just like normal, maybe giving the sword some special abilities and whatnot as you go and the father starts putting more effort into taking you over.
Asta
PSY
What you get is a +5 weapon that you can customize with an additional +5 worth of properties by spending a point with your arcane pool, as opposed to having a weapon you can't change at all. Don't sell the Black Blade short. Also keep in mind that it's FREE. which leaves a lot of WBL for other things.
The ability to add customized enchants isn't unique to the archetype. In the interest of apples to apples, a normal Magus can surpass a BB by mid levels just by casting Greater Magic Weapon and Keen edge each day on their sword and purchasing properties instead of enhancements. He will need a plan for material/alignment DR though.
At any rate, the BB is NOT free. I really wish people would stop saying that, trying to make the BB look like a more powerful option than it is (not saying that's your intent LazarX, nor do I intend to call you out specifically by replying to your post, its just a general pet peeve of mine).
You PAY with the Magus Arcana and with the Arcane Pool Points you lose at level 3. Yes, the BB has its own pool, but those points aren't anywhere near as versatile or powerful as the Magus' own pool. So we're talking about a 2 feat equivalency cost (Extra Arcana and Extra Arcane Pool). It also delays access to the Magus Arcana class feature for 3 levels, which is only a temporary cost, but could also potentially force a non-optimal feat progression (i.e. you'd like to choose extra arcana at levels 3 or 5, but can't because you don't yet have the class feature, and you can't yet qualify for other feats you may want later, so you have to choose something you want less instead). That's not necessarily a cost, and will depend entirely on the build though. Still, a TWO feat equivalency is a pretty high cost, and in the long run is a pretty terrible trade for only 50K gold and some situational utility powers.
That said, the BB IS a VERY significant financial gain at early levels, but if we assume the bonus is static and cannot be further enhanced by adding other properties, the value of the "free" enhancement bonus decays substantially over time. This makes the Bladebound archetype strictly a short term play through early to mid levels, and a borderline trap if you're concerned with high level play.
I'm okay with that in general terms; not every choice needs to be balanced at all levels IMO, and it is a very flavorful choice, but it shouldn't be a trap either. You paid two effective feats for this thing, it should be good! Yeah, you also get the situationally useful abilities of the BB, that you can use a couple times per day, but for a high level Magus, the +5 enhancement and those neat powers of the sword are no longer worth the cost of entry IMO (lifedrinker at level 19 does help substantially though, even if its too late to see use in most campaigns).
To illustrate, assuming the static progression is all you get, and ignoring the assumed inability to add specific enchants like agile or spell storing:
+1 at level 3 - 2K value vs. 3K WBL (67% improvement on WBL! Awesome!)
+2 at level 5 - 8K value vs. 10.5K WBL (76% improvement on WBL! Even better!)
+3 at level 9 - 18K value vs. 46K WBL (39% improvement on WBL. Still solid, but starting to see the decay.)
+4 at level 13 - 32K value vs. 140K WBL (23% improvement on WBL. Meh okay. Not the best value, but I'll take it.)
+5 at level 17 - 50K value vs. 410K WBL (12% improvement on WBL. I paid 2 feats for that?!)
All IMHO, of course.
I'm working on a Magus at the moment and I was thinking about taking the "Bladebound" archtype because I wanted to create a Tiefling Magus that has his fiendish father's soul trapped in the blade and his father, is trying to eventually take over and posses his son's body.
Now there is a discussion at the moment about the "Bladebound" Magus and the possibility of adding enchantments to the blade by buying them through crafting. Well it's still an ongoing discussion but I got thinking. I would actually be better off taking a normal Magus and just asking the DM if I could eventually have an intelligent weapon that goes with my concept.
I like the concept of the bladebound and all but you are essentially stuck with just a + 5 weapon while everyone else has the possibility of going all the way to + 10 (+5 enhancements & + 5 properties).
What do you think?
Either case involves asking the GM to be involved in the backstory/ongoing story of your character, if the GM can give you permission or mcguffin for an intelligent sword at some point, cant he simply give you permission to have a blackblade that is non standard?
You dont need to ADD enhancements to the black blade just trade them out for whatever you want them to be.
As you bladebound magus gets more powerful we gets more control over his fathers soul, and there for "forces" more power out of the sword. (siphoning his life force)
the cool thing with the black blade is there is some room for GM fiat for it to plot differently than you.
The drawback to the black blade is the alignment thing, its supposed to be the same alignment as you. so if your character is lawful evil as well, no worries.
But then again, even with a normal intelligent weapon, if your alignments are too far off, the weapon won't work for you.....
I like the idea of your father and your souls bound in a realtionship and battle of wills, the bladebound archetype works well for this, just get your DM to tweak the weapon abilities and magical pluses to what want them to be at X level... you dont even need to worry about crafting.
That's incorrect the GMW spell can ONLY be used to add bonuses to attack and damage. You can't use it to add properties. Check the spell text below.
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic
I'm well aware of this. I think you're missing my point, although I probably could have been more clear in illustrating it.
Any magus can enhance his blade with flexible properties from his arcane pool. We all know that; its not unique to the BB. The only difference between a BB and normal Magus w/r/t the arcane pool enhancement is what their blade starts as before they enhance it.
For example, lets take 12th level for simplicity, since that's where GMW and the BB both grant a +3 enhancement bonus; one or the other will have the balance shifted towards them at different levels, but 12 is a good apples to apples comparison point...so is every multiple of 4 levels, but I think its easy to see the BB has an advantage at early levels, and at least arguably breaks even at intermediate levels. So 12th level is a good snapshot to see the point where normal Magi can begin to easily surpass the BB (if additional enhancements are disallowed).
Let's start by having BOTH Magi spend ZERO gold on their weapon:
Bladebound: +3 set enhancement from BB and +3 flexible enhancement equivilency from arcane pool. Let's say he makes his blade +5 keen (pretty standard IMO).
Other Magi: +3 set enhancement from GMW and +3 flexible enhancement from arcane pool. He can also make his weapon +5 keen (except its really only +2 for purposes of overcoming DR).
Okay, pretty even, but advantage BB when facing DR. But what if the other Magi actually invest in boosting their weapons?
Bladebound: he's stuck with the same +5 Keen blade. (Or +3 Keen, flaming, shock. Or...you get the point.)
Other Magi: let's say he invests 32K in his weapon to make it +3 equivilency (~30% of his 108K WBL, not out of whack at all for a martial character). Since he's still going to use GMW, he only adds +1 enhancement (he has to in order to add other stuff, so its a 2K "tax" because it won't stack with GMW, although it will contribute to overcoming DR when combined with further enhancement form the arcane pool). The other +2 can be whatever he wants, including options unavailable to the BB. Let's say he chooses Holy. Now, after adding GMW and his arcane pool enhancement, he can get his weapon to a +5 Holy, Keen blade. (Or +3 Keen, Holy, flaming, shock, or whatever.)
Now DR is even less of a problem for the non-BB. If he's faced with material DR, he uses his pool for actual enhancement to get a true +3/+4 (+1 baseline plus 2-3 from AP). He already bypasses Evil DR due to holy, but will still have issues with other alignment DRs (not that they come up very often IME). He can always also use keen edge or a scabbard of keen edges to boost things even further, but I'll leave that out of this discussion because the BB can do the same.
At any rate, by 12th level, we've got ordinary Magi easily running around with +8 equivalent weapons, albeit with some DR concerns, and if they chose to spend more gold on their weapon, it could be even worse. Martial characters often times spend up to half their WBL on their primary weapon. I usually don't but if we did that here, the non-BB Magi could be running around with +10 equivalency weapons. Meanwhile, the bladebound Magi are "stuck" wielding +6 equivalency weapons.
Now sure, the BB gets to put that 32K (or 50K) gold the other Magi spent towards something else, but the value of that gets deflated when he can't put that towards his most important piece of equipment. Any optimizer will tell you a good offense is more critical than a good defense the vast majority of the time (albeit in moderation IMO), so from an optimization perspective, the BB comes up short compared to other Magi at higher levels...unless he's also allowed to invest gold directly into his most vital magic item: his weapon.
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One could argue that since the Black Blade has arcane pool of its own, the BB magus can customize his weapon more often, allowing him to change his weapon to whatever he needs it to be for an encounter, whereas a magus that bought a magic sword is stuck with that. Sure a +3 Holy sword is good against some creatures, but what if you fight something nuetral with damage resistances and weaknesses? Suddenly, you might need a +3 Corrosive Burst, or Shocking Burst. The BB can then use his swords arcane pool, add +1 (or two, or three, depending on his level) and then use his own to take advantage of the situation, ending up with a far better weapon for the encounter.
IMHO, the BB has the opportunity to be more flexible in any given situation.
Besides, who said the BB can't buy any old weapon he wants? No where does it say he has to use his black blade 100% of the time....
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Also, the BB gets the option to make ALL of his weapon damage a specific type, so now he can apply all of his arcane pool enhancements to something else. I don't think one has the upper hand over the other, really. I think they are pretty much even. The BB has a slight advantage at lower levels simply because his black blade starts out a little more powerful at base, but that's it.
The problem is that the cornerstone of your strategy relies on the usage of greater magic weapon. This tactic has it's downsides.
1. Fixed duration. while it's a long one, if you're caught outside that window, then you've got to either wait for the cast or go without.
2. It uses a third level spell slot. or the equivalent. I can think of other uses I'd much rather put that spell slot towards. This is especially serious if you're using an archetype that diminishes your spellcasting, i.e. Kensai or Skirinir. You can offset this with magic, but it's not cheap. If you this effect 24/7 you're using an extended version of the spell either as a fourth level slot or through a metamagic item. Your alternate choice is to memorize TWO of those spells per day.
That's all true, but its not a particularly uncommon strategy for classes with access to the spell. Its pretty common in optimization discussions IME, simply because its so economical. And its a trick the BB can't use because he gets a set scaling bonus (that does have its own advantages).
By your own formulas, you really don't see a value decrease until after 13th level, which is past the ending point of most campaigns. Campaigns that run higher have so much variability that set assumptions become suspect. Either way it's hardly a clearcut case at those levels. And your formula doesn't really account for the tricks the Blade continues to get at those high levels, including it's Stormbringer type power.
Are you talking about my earlier post discussing the value of the scaling enhancement bonus? If so, the "decay" starts much earlier than 13th level. If you're talking about my last post comparing what a normal vs. BB Magus is capable at 12th level, that's not at all what I illustrated (a +10 vs. +6 disparity is easily attainable at level 12, but smaller disparities in favor of non-BB magi can be achieved at earlier levels). Not sure where you're getting 13th level as a break point.
Also, the BB gets the option to make ALL of his weapon damage a specific type, so now he can apply all of his arcane pool enhancements to something else. I don't think one has the upper hand over the other, really. I think they are pretty much even. The BB has a slight advantage at lower levels simply because his black blade starts out a little more powerful at base, but that's it.
The energy substitution and other "tricks" the BB is capable of are certainly VERY useful when they come up. They are situational, and can only be used a few times per day, but they are useful when the situation calls for it.
One could argue that since the Black Blade has arcane pool of its own, the BB magus can customize his weapon more often, allowing him to change his weapon to whatever he needs it to be for an encounter, whereas a magus that bought a magic sword is stuck with that. Sure a +3 Holy sword is good against some creatures, but what if you fight something nuetral with damage resistances and weaknesses? Suddenly, you might need a +3 Corrosive Burst, or Shocking Burst. The BB can then use his swords arcane pool, add +1 (or two, or three, depending on his level) and then use his own to take advantage of the situation, ending up with a far better weapon for the encounter.
Again, you're now just talking about the arcane pool enhancement, which any magus can do. Energy Substitution (above) IS unique to BB, but its fairly situational to need to do ALL damage as elemental damage (force is most commonly useful, but also costs 2 points per round of use). Still, that is a useful ability. And yes, the guy with Holy fighting non-evil is "wasting" his bonus, while the BB is not, but he could have chosen something more universally applicable instead (like spellstoring or agile plus keen), and saved his pool for the situational stuff just as easily.
IMHO, the BB has the opportunity to be more flexible in any given situation.
Absolutely. A few rounds per day.
Besides, who said the BB can't buy any old weapon he wants? No where does it say he has to use his black blade 100% of the time....
No one. He can, but then what does he gain from the archetype exactly? This is actually a viable strategy to "keep up with the Joneses" at levels 13+, when you can use the arcane pool to add dancing to your +4 BB, and then simultaneously fight with something else (again, a normal magus can do the same, but needs to buy two weapons to do so...making use of GMW even more attractive).
At the end of the day, I agree that they are pretty even. Either path can be made to work, and work quite well. Its just that the differences are something to be aware of, especially if you plan to play at high levels. If someone chose the archetype because they were under the impression that it would always allow them to have a more powerful weapon than they'd otherwise be able to have, they should know that's not necessarily the case. Full disclosure and all that...
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One could argue that since the Black Blade has arcane pool of its own, the BB magus can customize his weapon more often, allowing him to change his weapon to whatever he needs it to be for an encounter, whereas a magus that bought a magic sword is stuck with that. Sure a +3 Holy sword is good against some creatures, but what if you fight something nuetral with damage resistances and weaknesses? Suddenly, you might need a +3 Corrosive Burst, or Shocking Burst. The BB can then use his swords arcane pool, add +1 (or two, or three, depending on his level) and then use his own to take advantage of the situation, ending up with a far better weapon for the encounter.
IMHO, the BB has the opportunity to be more flexible in any given situation.
Besides, who said the BB can't buy any old weapon he wants? No where does it say he has to use his black blade 100% of the time....
Steven
The blackblade doesn't like for the magus to use another weapon so it will try and take over amd make him fight using it.
Is that actually a rule somewhere? Or even in the fluff text? I didn't see it in the PRD entry for the Bladebound archetype
Nah. That's not a rule as far as I'm aware.
In general, there's nothing to stop a bladebound magus from using a weapon other than a blackblade. In fact, at times, he'll even need to unless he's able to add transformative to the BB (i.e. fighting something with DR/bludgeoning). Or maybe the situation calls for a ranged weapon like a bow. Still, barring those kinds of circumstances (or the level 13+ Dancing property shenanigans I alluded to earlier), I can't see a situation where they would want to fight with anything else.
That said, playing the archetype (or anything else using an intelligent weapon with a fairly high Ego) gives the GM an awful lot of leeway to decide situationally what the blade wants and what it doesn't, and gives them a means to enforce those desires (Ego based domination). So they could certainly rule that the BB would be peeved if you tried to use something else while faced with enemies related to its specific purpose, for example.
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Steven
The blackblade doesn't like for the magus to use another weapon so it will try and take over amd make him fight using it.
That is true. Not many intelligent items like for you to not use them, however, the will saves are usually pretty easy to pass. Also, if you are using another weapon to fulfill the black blades 'mission' then I don't think it would be too against it, unless the magus did this over and over.
My point was simply that as far as WBL goes, the blade bound isn't that far behind on magical weapon options.
I do agree that in some situations being a blade bound is a bad thing, just like sometimes being a kensai is a bad thing, or being a specialized archetype of any other class is a bad thing.
But, let's be totally honest. If EVERY class was equal, had the same numerical damage output, had the same difficulty to be hit, had the same everything, the game would be:
The fact that some classes outperform others in situations brings diversity. Instead of having a 'job' (I realize that classes have roles, don't take that the wrong way, they are just not a pigeonholed as they are in 4e.) you have situations where you will shine, and situations where you will not so much shine. I think that is what equalizes the classes. Is there a better way? Maybe. I don't know, I'm just a DM. But I think that everyone who has posted here has a point. everyone is right, in a degree. Pure magus is better than BB sometimes. BB kicks pure magus' teeth in at low levels. They equal out in high levels, and in mid levels the pure magus has a slight advantage. I love the BB because of his fluff and because his melee is a lot better than a pure. i love the pure because he has a heck of a lot more spellpower and options, and more arcane pool points and more arcana choices.
tldr; potatoes are pretty cool.
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Shallowsoul, I had a BB Magus at my table, and I allowed the Arcane Pool to remain at 1/2 level + INT rather than the reduced 1/3 level + INT. To compensate, I increased the Blackblade's Ego by 5 and changed the alignment rule to be they must be one step away from the wielder's alignment. The BB Magus was N and his blackblade was NE. The change increased Ego contests, but allowed for a slightly more powerful BB than before, which we all considered a fair trade.
I like the concept. What kind of fiend would be in the sword?I'm probably going to go with a devil because devil's corrupt and they are very patient.
Nice! Have you thought about the kind of devil?
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Shallowsoul, I had a BB Magus at my table, and I allowed the Arcane Pool to remain at 1/2 level + INT rather than the reduced 1/3 level + INT. To compensate, I increased the Blackblade's Ego by 5 and changed the alignment rule to be they must be one step away from the wielder's alignment. The BB Magus was N and his blackblade was NE. The change increased Ego contests, but allowed for a slightly more powerful BB than before, which we all considered a fair trade.
I really like this idea. Intelligent weapons/items are a lot more fun if the alignments are a step off. I think I'll present this as an optional house rule for anyone who plays magus at my table.