Search boards for sap master. Profit.
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Yup, Sap Master is definitely the way to get gobs and gobs of damage. Granted, it's nonlethal, which some creature types ignore, but you'll knock any humanoids the f*** out.
Alternately, a buddy of mine uses Greater Invis and shuriken to get ~5 sneak attacks per turn, which results on average between 20 and 25 d6.
whatever you do it will be a lot less damage. Just go for scout and TWF, hope for flanking and good melee-support.
The sec you get Invisible Blade with a keen Agile burst wakazashi you are a DPR god . Also pressure points rocks pretty hard to .
DPR god? I dont think so.
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1. Add Dex to Damage
a. Use "Agile Weapon" enchantment on your wakizashis
b. Convince your DM to let you use a feat that adds dex to dmg. A good one i've seen is:
Improved Weapon Finesse or Finesse Strike [prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus]: You learn to use your agility to improve the damage of your attacks. When attacking with a light or finessable weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you may add your Dex bonus to damage. When wielding a light of finessable weapon in two hands, this bonus damage does not multiply by 1.5x.
I just free-wrote that, but it includes the essence. Not exactly easy to get, doesn't multiply, and only works with certain weapons.
One of my DM's allows me to use this feat.
2. Maximize your hit chance
a. Weapon Focus: Wakizashi
b. 18 Dex base +2 Dex racial = 20 Dex @ lvl 1
c. Masterwork Wakizashis ASAP
d. Belt of Dexterity ASAP
e. Vanishing Trick
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Play a Tengu.
Seriously, just play a Tengu Ninja with claws and Beak, swap your High Dex for for High Strength and as soon as possible pick up a Helm of the Mammoth Lord.
5 Attacks a round all with sneak attack (between the ninja tricks, flank buddies, invisibility, UMD & stealth you should always get this) at full Bab and only 2 stats to worry about (Strength and Con) you can 1 round any target in the game.
That is not true either. And probably more viable when you focus on dex and agile AoMF
Personally I find TWF to be very limited. You only get the full benefit when you can make a full-round attack, so you have to position into melee first. After you kill your first enemy, you have to then move to the next enemy unless one happens to be within a 5' step. Every time you have to move more than a 5' step, you're only getting 1 attack per round and you lose all the benefits of your TWF feats (except two weapon defense, which is a TERRIBLE feat to start with).
Conversely, ranged attacks let you take a full attack no matter what as long as you take no more than a 5' step. Have your bow out ahead of time, use Vanishing Trick, and you can take a full attack to fire off as many sneak attacks as you can in a round.
As an aside, I really want to make a ninja/gunslinger in my next game. Vanishing Trick for a full round of sneak attacks, use revolvers to only have to hit touch AC's, two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and fill combat with flying lead coming out of freakin' nowhere!
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That is not true either. And probably more viable when you focus on dex and agile AoMF
No, it works and is probably one of the more viable of the rogue/ninja builds.
3 attacks from claw/claw/peck +1 Gore attack from the Helm + 1 attack from the Ki pool equals 5 attacks a round.Focusing on Dex over Strength requires the expenditure of a feat for weapon finesse which puts you down a feat over a strength build. If you wanted to use an AoMF that's going to cost you effectively 12 THOUSAND more gold instead since a strength build can go straight for the DPR increasing enchants on his AoMF.
Skipping out on the costs of going Dex build lets you invest in the minor/major magic talent or stack UMD to be able to always drop a Summon minor monster route to ALWAYS have a flanking buddy so you can Sneak Attack every round.
Strength built rogues are always better for damage.
@laarddrym Vanishing trick only lets you get sneak attack on your first attack, the rest of the attacks will be non-SA's unless you have flank or the target is denied his dex for some reason.
Vanishing trick is more of an opening move and tends to work best with 2-hd weapons delivering SA's.
You wont one-round any target in the game. The DPR is ok but not overwhelming.
And when focussing on dex you can dump str further than you could dump dex in a strength build, therefore you can start with higher dex what makes up for at least the +1/+1 from aomf you're missing. So you virtualy spend one feat (weapon finesse) to increase your AC, Ini and ref-save immensly. Not the worst choice.
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You wont one-round any target in the game. The DPR is ok but not overwhelming.
And when focussing on dex you can dump str further than you could dump dex in a strength build, therefore you can start with higher dex what makes up for at least the +1/+1 from aomf you're missing. So you virtualy spend one feat (weapon finesse) to increase your AC, Ini and ref-save immensly. Not the worst choice.
Not quite.
Dumping str on a dex build drops your carry capacity to horrible levels and can prevent you from even carrying your weapons and a slight bit of armor. Dumping Dex on a strength build penalizes your reflex save, which is your strongest save AND once evasion/improved evasion kicks in means failing a reflex save doesn't hurt as much.As for the AC issue, you can easily make up for that by wearing ARMOR. Gives you the added benefit of keeping your AC at the same level whether you are flat-footed/denied your dex or not.
As has been banged out over and over again, the best DPR rogue is the Strength rogue. More damage consistently for a lower investment cost to get there.
As for damage, I would love to see any level appropriate target capable of absorbing 5 times (xD6+5), at 5th level alone it's 15D6+25 average 77.5 per round.
The normal HP's of a CR 5 creature are low-to mid 60's, so an easy kill with average rolls. This ratio stays the same for every CR out there.
1 Full round attack from this Tengu rolling average damage will kill any CR appropriate critter in the bestiary.
Do the math and you will see. That 1) dex is same as good as strength as long as you manage to start with 2 ex more as you could have in strength and 2) your DPR wont say that you drop foes in one round.
Personally I strongly dislike the dex based TWF builds.
Why? Feat taxes is number 1. Weapon finesse and TWF are required for the build to even get going. Weapon finesse doesn't even make up damage loss from not going strength rogue.
Number 2 is the difficulty in finding position for full attacks. The 1 round 1 attack, stand like an idiot for round 2 full attack kill enemy, 5 foot step towards next pattern is not exactly good DPR. Add in needing to either flank or use actions to hide to get the bulk of the dex build damage (which emphasizes sneak attack) and the DPR over the encounter drops quickly due to poor action economy.
3: Poor BAB and the -2 or worse to hit. 3/4 BAB and an additional -2 (which at early levels means that a wizard can have a higher to hit than a rogue). Every time I see this build at a PFS table they are whiff factories. Sure they can attack against flat footed or flanked opponents, but flat footed AC for many monsters is only 1 lower or worse, the same as normal AC. Flanking isn't easy to pull off, and the double team needed potentially allows leakers to get to the back line party members. Concentrating power is nice, but now that the rogue kill stole, the real melee player (which would have probably finished off the monster without help) in addition to the rogue will have to make a DPR sapping move and single attack action. The rogue isn't the god of DPR like some fan boys like to point out, factoring in the low BAB and the penalties they take for TWF their DPR against real targets is actually on the low end for damage based classes.
4: Squishy. Rogues are d8 and usually don't go for more than a 14 con (in my experience). Yet they expose themselves to enemy attacks due to the nature of action economy (you have to stand 5' or closer to get the full attack next round) and stealth (you need cover or concealment to even get to hide). Their AC isn't usually spectacular until mid/late game due to proficiency and cost of AC items, unless they take -to hit actions to boost it. Which saps DPR (though being on the ground bleeding saps it even more).
That being said there is still value playing as a rogue/ninja, but damage is not really their strongest use (anybody can do damage, and most classes can be built to do it better). Their pile of skill points and generous class skill allowance is what you should really like about rogues types.
Well, vital strike scout bludgeoner or TWF-Sap builds actually can do "good" damage. First one favors str-builds (and uses earthbreaker), second one favors dex.
Then there are natural weapon builds that can be decent, but they are usually not same as good as sap builds.
Without sap feats I would not play a "DPR"-focussed rogue.
The last campaign (LoF) and the current one I've running both had party members playing DPR focused rogues. In the LoF the ninja focused on vanishing trick to position for full attacks. When it worked it killed the enemy, when it didn't, he spent most of the encounter trying to stay out of things while trying to contribute (tons of true seeing stuff).
In shattered star the sap scout rogue does good DPR, when he hits things they tend to drop (unless they are a boss/mini boss). Yet there is a fair number of things his non lethal damage won't work on, and a fair amount of times he hasn't been able to sneak attack. Some encounters he is scary for the monsters, other times he is a joke. I don't think I'll have to worry about him much longer because his bad saves finally bit him in the hind quarters vs a save or die gaze attack, and the player has expressed interest in retiring him for a more versatile character (compared to the one trick pony that he is currently).
@Mathwei ap Niall you're right, i was thinking the advanced trick Invisible Blade, and possibly the old 3.5 ninja ability that functioned similar to greater invisibility.
either way, TWF is terrible DPR, ranged is the way to go. if you're dead-set on a dex based rogue, i'd say 1 level dip in fighter for scimitar proficiency and pick up Dervish Dance early to get Dex to both hit and damage with scimitars. tie that into a spring attack build, and you're almost guaranteed 1 strong sneak attack each round while staying mostly out of danger.
edit: sap builds are good as well, at least until you come across things that are immune to non-lethal damage.