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Hey boards,
The thread title almost sums it up -- working on a half-Orc Inquisitor with a focus on intimidate for one of our players who's decided he hates his current character. Cornugon Smash, Intimidating Prowess, Gory Finish/Dreadful Carnage etc. Pretty standard.
But how about a rogue dip for taking advantage of the thug archetype? Say, two levels. 1 at first level and MAYBE a second (evasion and a rogue talent -- more feats!) at 7th -- after picking up Bane at 6th.
I realize generally it (albeit arguably) wouldn't be worth it; delaying casting, bane etc., but in this specific case ... I don't know, what say you all?
There's a reason every Thug build I've ever seen focuses on Enforcer and not Cornugon Smash. Enforcer is unique in that if you succeed at the Intimidate check, you make the target shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. That makes it incredibly easy to meet the 4 round mininmum to instead make the target frightened. In order to do the same thing with Cornugon Smash, you'd have to beat the Intimidate DC by 15+ (1 round for beating the DC +1 round per 5 you exceed). It's not impossible, but it's just so much easier to do with Enforcer.
EDIT: I just remembered the Thug's 1 round increase to shaken. That makes it only the DC+10 to get to the magic 4 rounds, which is more manageable, but still, Enforcer makes it a foregone conclusion.
I just remembered the Thug's 1 round increase to shaken. That makes it only the DC+10 to get to the magic 4 rounds, which is more manageable, but still, Enforcer makes it a foregone conclusion.
True, albeit with a couple of caveats that bare on my thinking here: It's my understanding that Enforcer requires a couple of other tricks to get the most out of it, e.g. merciful weapons, sap mastery etc. That doesn't however, invalidate the point -- it is better than Cornugon Smash. But is it that much better on it's own -- or is my thinking of enforcer just wrong?
That being said, it's worth noting that at level 4 (the level I'm building this for) this build has +18 to Intimidate checks: 4 ranks+Intimidating Prowess+Conversion Inquisition+class skill+Stern Gaze+half-orc favored class bonus. My thinking was that he should be able to hit the DC+10 pretty easy. Am I, perhaps, mistaken?
You should pair Enforcer with the Thug Rogue Archetype. Any successful hit with a nonlethal weapon makes opponents frightend. And that works as of level 1.
Also, pardon my sloppy typo in the topic title. That's what I get for posting on a phone. Oh well, could be worse -- at least I didn't spell rouge.
The consensus is in! Rogue dip it is, but when? First level as rogue, Inquisitor to 5 for Bane and then rogue 2 or (having been convinced by a re-reading of Enforcer -- I'd totally misunderstood it, thanks for pointing it out)
Maybe just first two levels as rogue, to get both enforcer and intimidating prowess (as a rogue talent) early on, to ensure I make those checks when I need them. I'm liking the idea thus far.
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I, personally, would go Inquisitor to level 2, grab the Rogue 1 dip, get to level 5 for Bane, get Rogue 2, and then just go straight Inquisitor. This prevents you from being level 2 w/ +0 BAB, which is not a happy situation for anybody.
If you're going Strength-based, Enforcer + Intimidating Prowess and the Coversion Inquisition makes for a scary fellow!
The consensus is in! Rogue dip it is, but when? First level as rogue, Inquisitor to 5 for Bane and then rogue 2 or (having been convinced by a re-reading of Enforcer -- I'd totally misunderstood it, thanks for pointing it out)
Maybe just first two levels as rogue, to get both enforcer and intimidating prowess (as a rogue talent) early on, to ensure I make those checks when I need them. I'm liking the idea thus far.
Well, let us see what you gain: a much better Intimidate, which doesn’t work against entire classes of monsters. 2SkP, 1D6 SA.
What do you lose? +1 BAB, +1 to each of three saves, a 2nd level spell, a teamwork feat, plus the misc things you lose in a class, such as spell duration. The 2nd level spell could be Castigate, which has fear effects, if you like. Oh, and you will never get the class capstone.
The trade off isn’t worth it. It rarely is.
Assumeing that it take 12 to 16 hours get a level.
That 19* (12+16)/2=266 gaming hours with cool low level power vs 14 hour with capstone power. This assumes that you make to level 20 play. I do not see where that is even remotely even. So build straight build and have cool cap stone power for 14 hours. I will have 252 more hours of fun useing cool level dip ability.
Technically a 2 level dip also nets +2 to the bad save; I'd call that one an even trade off. Spell duration can largely be gotten around with magical knack, since this isn't for PFS play.
The BAB hit hurts -- and likely will continue to do so even in later levels -- and I normally would never recommend mixing 3/4 BAB classes, this is just possibly a special instance.
Also, it's worth noting that the group would be level 4 by the time the character is replaced, so no 2/2 BAB +0 silliness.
However, classes in Pathfinder -- capstone or no capstone -- are good enough to relegate most multi-classing to quirky, highly specific builds.
There's a good argument not to take the dip.
But considering the requested focus on intimidate, I think it might be worth it. Valid arguments on both sides though; admittedly much to consider.
Assumeing that it take 12 to 16 hours get a level.
That 19* (12+16)/2=266 gaming hours with cool low level power vs 14 hour with capstone power. This assumes that you make to level 20 play. I do not see where that is even remotely even. So build straight build and have cool cap stone power for 14 hours. I will have 252 more hours of fun useing cool level dip ability.
True, the capstone is rarely played. But how about the other things? +1 bab? +1 to three saves? A second level spell? You're losing 266 gaming hours with a below average Bab. And 3/4 bab classes can't afford to lose any.
Simple use factional rules. So BaB and Save stay on curve no matter what level you take.
It simple per level
weak BaB +1/2, med BaB 3/4, Strong BaB +1 then get the total.
Saves per level weak add 1/3 or Strong add 1/2
If if strong then also add +2 once it.
So a Rogue 2 Bard 2 by the book is BaB of +2 and Fort +0 Reflex +6 and Will of +3
Look at the for a sec BaB is lower by one so they miss more offten and save way out wack. You quiver any time some one says make Fort and laugh at any Reflex save. I mean you are 4th level with strong save equal to 8th level striaght PC. So to chalenge your reflex the GM need to send DC +4 higher than normal. So might take some damage. But if he dose do that he smokes the rest of the party because you made a mutt. No fun for the other 3 folks at the table. Or Throw normal DC any you make it most the time. No risk for you so no fun. You BaB one lower so you miss alot more and do not help pull you own weight in the fight. With the higher BaB you hit more offten and pull more of your own wieght in the fight there by keep the party alive more offten that not. And you will have more fun. Because you do what you should be able to do in the first place.
If you go by factional rules your BaB is +3 Fort +1 1/3 or +1 Reflex is +4 and Will +3 2/3. This much more in line with what 4th level PC should be.
I know adding frations is hard... but you learn it the fourth grade. It step up basic math the game is based on 1st grade math.
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Simple use factional rules. So BaB and Save stay on curve no matter what level you take.
It simple per level
weak BaB +1/2, med BaB 3/4, Strong BaB +1 then get the total.Saves per level weak add 1/3 or Strong add 1/2
If if strong then also add +2 once it.So a Rogue 2 Bard 2 by the book is BaB of +2 and Fort +0 Reflex +6 and Will of +3
Look at the for a sec BaB is lower by one so they miss more offten and save way out wack. You quiver any time some one says make Fort and laugh at any Reflex save. I mean you are 4th level with strong save equal to 8th level striaght PC. So to chalenge your reflex the GM need to send DC +4 higher than normal. So might take some damage. But if he dose do that he smokes the rest of the party because you made a mutt. No fun for the other 3 folks at the table. Or Throw normal DC any you make it most the time. No risk for you so no fun. You BaB one lower so you miss alot more and do not help pull you own weight in the fight. With the higher BaB you hit more offten and pull more of your own wieght in the fight there by keep the party alive more offten that not. And you will have more fun. Because you do what you should be able to do in the first place.
If you go by factional rules your BaB is +3 Fort +1 1/3 or +1 Reflex is +4 and Will +3 2/3. This much more in line with what 4th level PC should be.
I know adding frations is hard... but you learn it the fourth grade. It step up basic math the game is based on 1st grade math.
What are you even arguing, here?
The thug archetype does well, but I prefer a Wild Rager Barbarian 2 / Anger Inquisition Inquisitor 9+ for my intimidate based inquisitor.
Terrifying Howl rage power is just plain ridiculous. You can still go with Dazzling Display if you want or you could just use the second level spell Blistering Invective for hilarious effect.
Imagine a group of enemies bursting into flames because of your insulting tirade, and the next round terrifying howl has them dropping their weapons and running away in panic.... Still on fire.
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bbt, getting into the Hell Knight PrC relies a lot on the DM either allowing you to wave the demon-killing in the presence of a Hell Knight bit, or specifically including a higher-HD demon and a Hell Knight order in the game, though.
And that sounds pretty nifty, Grecko, though I am personally not fond of the Wild Rager archetype.
I personally don't like to dip ever. PF made every class nice to stay in by adding the 'extras'. I love the Rogue and Inquisitor classes and it is always a tough decision to pick which one to play. You just have to ask yourself what role you want to play and stick with it. I also made an 1/2 Orc Inquisitor intimidate monster. They do turn out nicely! Enjoy all the fun of a full Inquisitor. It is easy to be swayed to the dark side of multi-classing. My fellow group members and myself argue the points on a weekly basis. I definitely enjoy the straight classing and my buddy 3 dips all the time. Great saves and some things but I out power him at the same level in a fight.
bbt, getting into the Hell Knight PrC relies a lot on the DM either allowing you to wave the demon-killing in the presence of a Hell Knight bit, or specifically including a higher-HD demon and a Hell Knight order in the game, though.
And that sounds pretty nifty, Grecko, though I am personally not fond of the Wild Rager archetype.
You don't have to pick wild rager.. I just like the concept and bonus attack every round. The method works with any of the barbarian archetypes. You just need to take barb to level two to get access to rage powers, and then you use feats on "extra rage power" to pick up terrifying howl when your effective barbarian level reaches 8, which is at barb2/inq9. I suggest using the the first rage power you get as level 2 barbarian on moment of clarity so that you can cast a spell during rages if you need to.
Of course, nothing is preventing anyone from going Barb2/Rogue1/Inquis9. You could incorporate the thug archetype into the build if one was so inclined.