And quite frankly I'm of two views. I either have players who don't die to "game the system" so that such a draconian rule never needs to be put in place, or I don't run. Because quite frankly, this can't be anything but dysfunctional as soon as the players' average level gets above 2-3.If you're feeling that antagonistic towards your players that you're putting in rules on this level of heavyhandedness, it's time to reexamine the reasons you're behind that screen in the first place, and consider whether it's time to hang it up for at least a bit, as it's a clear indication of DM burn-out.
None of my players "game the system".
The rule in question is neither "draconian" or heavyhanded nor "put in place" it has been thus sence long before I opened my first red box.I am not antagonistic towards my players. They are my friends.
I am not burnt out and I throughly enjoy my time behind the screen.
My friends enjoy there time in front of my screne very much I am told.
I resent your implecations about myself, my game, and my players.
They are rude.
I ask politely that you not do so again.
you shouldn't penalize new characters at all. even with a single level penalty.
it encourages players to cheat to save characters really precious to them. and death is a pain to deal with, because it really means, roll up a new character. and in a system like pathfinder, catching up is nearly impossible without several months of increased XP rewards, or a bunch of Solo adventures, and character creation literally takes forever. since there are so many details on the darn sheet to deal with.
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So I'm looking at the OP's post, failing to see what he was getting at: "of course they start at first level so- waitaminute, 18th level cleric? Well THERE'S your problem!"
See back in the good old days, it was the GMs job to kill off the characters at 1st level, and we were good at it. The average character lifespan was about .67 games, and players got down on their knees and thanked Holy Gygax if a character made second level. I confess that to our local group's shame, one of our DMs once let a character make third level. We had to exile him from DMing- tore up his DM screen, wrote an apology letter to Dragon Magazine and everything. But that was the exception, and players were properly cowed.
But these days? The OP is just another example of the wussyness that infects modern day gaming, with it's "consensus", "shared storytelling", "narrativism" and other examples of Amateur Thespianism. The OP failed to take his viking helmet in hand and properly show the players who is GAWD, and who is the creebling victims. Back in the day, grumbling players would get their characters Blue Bolted so fast their dice would spin. And there would be none of this nonsense about minmaxing, munchkins, or characters getting above level one. The OP needs to bring back 3d6 in order, elfs as a class and TPKs in the first room of the first dungeon when the random encounter table gives them a liche. That'll fix his problem- players won't have their characters long enough to kill themselves.
That was classic!
<sarcasm>
Wow! All you guys are playing it all wrong. It is GM vs. players - bring your best monsters and watch them crying like babies. This game isn't about having fun, story telling, role playing or companionship with good friends. It is all about the vicious beat down!
</sarcasm>To be serious, there is an important issue being raised. Where is the balance and how do you deal with character death? Reading some posts, I wonder why track hit points if you are going to make death meaningless and let players just make clones (or improved characters). On the other end is a complete disruption of the CR system and game balance having level 1 and 20 in the same party. As a GM, I struggle greatly with this issue and have yet to find a "good" answer. Really, this issue only exists until level 8 when Raise Dead makes the issue moot. But until then there is a serious problem.
The OP's specific situation is a metagaming issue that should be handled with a talk. If the player can't get behind a character, maybe they need to find a like-minded group.
Mike J,
I can see where this might be a concern for some group combinations, and I feel that the bolded part of your statement is the true answer to this.
There are some who will enjoy the vast level gulf. There are those who would refuse to play in such a game.
This is personal preference issue, and a social contract issue.
While I as a GM have never had this problem, I understand that there are groups/players who see no problems with thinking of PC's as disposable commodities.
If everyone is having fun, this should not be a problem.
However I, in my personal opinion, believe that those players who enjoy playing level ones in a group where the gulf is more than one or two levels are few and far between. I also believe that those players who see their characters as nothing more than numbers and pieces of paper are in a distinct minority as well.
I know that no-one in my personal gaming group would enjoy such, and honestly their lack of fun would be my lack of fun.
Just for the sake of clarity, where myself and my players find most of our enjoyment is in creating an immerse world and cast of characters, and then facing challenges so as to move that world forward.
I am definitively not espousing care-bearing, or any other euphemism for a deliberately easier game. While such would be fun for some groups, it would not be so for mine.
In short, Yes talk among your group and find a play style you all enjoy.
For what it's worth... I don't let players make clones.
We have a conversation in advance, and I let them know that in my games I want to see every player character be a unique individual and highly distinct. This does give newer players a bit of a difficult time (because they tend to basically play themselves the first time and don't know where to go afterwards) but I try to be as encouraging and helpful as possible.
If a character dies and the party doesn't have access to resurrection magic, then it's a sad day where a comrade (and likely a good friend to most PC's) passed away.
That's a heavy loss, it carries some real weight to it, and impacts the characters left behind. (Regrettably the Opening Poster didn't have a gaming environment of this sort, he had plays wanting to suicide to rebuild, which is never a good thing in my opinion.)
Then the player gets to try out a new character, with a new personality, a new heart, new perspective, and new goals. I would strongly advise a player who lost a character not to make the mechanics too closely match his old one, but what matters most to me isn't the mechanics that power a character, it's the heart and soul of the character that I really care about.
i admit it also breaks my own immersion when we get clones that are appearantly identical siblings born from the same pregnancy.
How Can the Identical Septuplets known as Jack, Jake, James, John, Jeremy, Jason, and Jerard all be Fighters with the same backstory, personality, equipment, mechanics, level, appearance, and fighting style?
and how many women really give birth to Septuplets?
i can Understand the Fetchling Bard, Umbriere Moonwhisper, Falling Ill, and sending her slightly Younger Twin Sister, the Angelkin Oracle, Lumiere Dawnbringer to take her sister's place.
or the Great Swordsman Bukake sending his skilled and highly prodigal apprentice, the Great Swordsman known as Futanari to take his place in an adventure.
but please, the 7 thinly veiled clones should not fly.
Those are uh... some unfortunate swordsmen to get names like that.
i was too lazy to think up names, and for some reason, Hentai was one the brain at the moment.
but those swordsmen have a good story for being so badass, tired of being bullied for their unfortunate names, so they trained extremely hard out of compensation issues to the point they can defeat any mortal swordsman who targets their name.
I REITERATE, there is a simple solution to this:
How about a version of something I tried long ago. You start the new characters off at 1st level, but you grant them 2x the experience until they hit the average xp of the group as a whole, even if it takes them awhile to do so.
Thus, they are still penalized, but they also catch up.
I REITERATE, there is a simple solution to this:
How about a version of something I tried long ago. You start the new characters off at 1st level, but you grant them 2x the experience until they hit the average xp of the group as a whole, even if it takes them awhile to do so.
Thus, they are still penalized, but they also catch up.
yay, the new character has to survive impossible odds to survive long enough to catch up.
really?
i have to play a useless level 1 beggar in a party of level 15 superheroes?
especially since no matter how creatively you utilize that useless level 1 beggar, they can never survive long enough to match the level 15 superheroes.
The problem with that Piccolo is that a first level character is so useless to characters over level 4-5 or so. The speed of catching up (if done in-play rather than via time-skip) isn't particularly relevant compared to being a handicap to the party/instantly die to incidental damage (such as AoE's or Swarms or such.)
That's why I use the solution (for gameworlds wherein there aren't other high level adventurers to draw from) to either recruit a monster PC of comparable power that can slot straight into the party, or recruit someone fresh and apply a timeskip during which said character is trained up to the party's level.
a much better idea.
I think this could be a fitting punishment or counter to overly munchkiny players, and if it becomes an issue for regular players who arent just dying to get a character change or because they are bored then there are plenty of ways to bring people back from the dead in these wonderful fantasy settings. Heck, if the players manage to make some friends thru roleplaying they may even be owed favors or have backers who can help cover the costs of reviving the dead with no level loss. =)
Asta
PSY
I REITERATE, there is a simple solution to this:
How about a version of something I tried long ago. You start the new characters off at 1st level, but you grant them 2x the experience until they hit the average xp of the group as a whole, even if it takes them awhile to do so.
Thus, they are still penalized, but they also catch up.
yay, the new character has to survive impossible odds to survive long enough to catch up.
really?
i have to play a useless level 1 beggar in a party of level 15 superheroes?
especially since no matter how creatively you utilize that useless level 1 beggar, they can never survive long enough to match the level 15 superheroes.
you'd be surprised. And all of what you wrote is purely opinion and conjecture. I've started a 1st level wizard in a 9th level party, and had a blast playing.
I think this could be a fitting punishment or counter to overly munchkiny players, and if it becomes an issue for regular players who arent just dying to get a character change or because they are bored then there are plenty of ways to bring people back from the dead in these wonderful fantasy settings. Heck, if the players manage to make some friends thru roleplaying they may even be owed favors or have backers who can help cover the costs of reviving the dead with no level loss. =)
Asta
PSY
if a player wishes to change characters, instead of disemboweling themselves for a reroll.
they should ask their DM if at an appropriate time, they can change to a new character because they aren't too impressed with their current one. and even with a munchkin, you shouldn't penalize or punish them in game. you should talk to them out of game.
don't penalize the new PC just because they are a new PC. what high level party is honestly going to bother babysitting a penniless level 1 beggar?
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If would ever arrive at a D&D game and was told that I'm supposed to play a level 1 character next to Joe's level 14 Synthesist and Jane's level 22 Void Dancer I'd just thank everyone profoundly, pack up, call my mates and have a game of Catan or something more exciting.
You forgot about Bob's 6th level Ranger.
and Shirley's level 57 planeswalker
what a party?
a 6th level Ranger Run by a guy named Bob, a 14th level synthesist run by a guy named Joe, a 22nd level void dancer run by some Girl named Jane, and a 57th level planes walker run by a powermad DM named Shirley.
Bob is the only seemingly normal guy there. he will never compete with the other 3 at all. 2 of which are deep into epic territory.
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Quote from the OP"Eventually, I got sick of players deliberately killing themselves"
Ok, right there if that happened to me, my players would be finding themselves another GM. I am not running some play test for builds. It sounds to me that these players are simply immature and disrespectful no matter what rules or consequences you put before them. I know they maybe your friends, which is fine, but maybe they do not need to be your RPG friends. Hopefully you live in a fairly civilized town/city and there is a local game shop with more individuals who would appreciate the time and effort you put into running a game. It is not worth the stress and frustrations of having to deal with people like that.
I will say right now, I do not know of a decent way to handle it in game that doesn’t cause even more long term problems than it causes.I hear you. Our old group solved this. So I may as well share what we used, it may do someone some good.
House rules:
- When you die (or retire) you can restart at one level below the lowest level member of the party or level 1 whichever is higher.
- Characters who fall behind in level due to any number of reasons (permanent level loss, dying, missing too much bonus XP) gain +20% to experience earned till they climb back up to average party level. This means you should catch back up after about 5 levels.
- In the event of a heroic death or meaningful retirement (decided by 2/3 majority vote) You may restart at the same level of your previous character.My problem with this (albeit a minor one as it is not that big of a deal to me....so I would not even complain if I saw it as a player..) that death in a rpg could be bad luck.
Also just a clarification it is one level the lowest level member that is alive right? Not the character that just died?
Yes the lowest party member still alive. And yes that means that if you were already behind the group you might not loss any levels and if you were ahead of the group you might lose a couple of levels.
But the rules were made to first make death a very real penalty and something to be avoided if at all possible. And secondly to make sure that any restarted PCs were able to keep up with the group as a whole. The newbies being slightly less powerful and with weaker equipment. And since with these you can always catch back up the penalty isn't lasting.
I REITERATE, there is a simple solution to this:
How about a version of something I tried long ago. You start the new characters off at 1st level, but you grant them 2x the experience until they hit the average xp of the group as a whole, even if it takes them awhile to do so.
Thus, they are still penalized, but they also catch up.
If this works for your group fine.
However, Let us look at the math behind your idea.
If we assume that we have a four person adventuring group. We will assume the medium Exp track due to the fact that it is a nice medium between slow and fast.
If someone dies at level one, and the Party is only one Exp from leveling what happens?
1(New Character): 0/2,000
2(Existing Character): 1,999/2,000
3(Existing Character): 1,999/2,000
4(Existing Character): 1,999/2,000
So a CR Two grants 600 Exp or 150 to each PC. Player one will gain 300 Exp per CR Two. This means that he will need to kill 14 CR Two enemies to catch up. This assumes that on the last CR Two only enough "Bonus" Exp is granted to allow a character to catch up. This will result in the following Exp Spread.
1(New Character): 4,099/5,000
2(Existing Character): 4,099/5,000
3(Existing Character): 4,099/5,000
4(Existing Character): 4,099/5,000
So it took 4/5 of a level basically for the player to catch up in the worst case scenario. this would be between 5-14 encounters. I also believe that the one level gap while noticeable would not be crippling, however this is just my opinion.
But what happens if a PC dies at one Exp away from Level three?
1(New Character): 0/2,000
2(Existing Character): 4,999/5,000
3(Existing Character): 4,999/5,000
4(Existing Character): 4,999/5,000
So a CR Three grants 800 Exp or 200 to each PC. Player one will gain 400 Exp per CR Three. This means that he will need to kill 25 CR Three enemies to catch up. This assumes that on the last CR Three only enough "Bonus" Exp is granted to allow a character to catch up. This will result in the following Exp Spread.
1(New Character): 9,999/15,000
2(Existing Character): 9,999/15,000
3(Existing Character): 9,999/15,000
4(Existing Character): 9,999/15,000
This means the PC will have to wait until past attaining level four to catch up and has spent over a level being behind the party. For the first kill the PC will be one level behind. For the next four kills the PC will be two level behind.
Being two levels behind will also cause the PC's effectiveness to drop off sharply but if played well and optimized may still be useful and may survive. For kills six through 13 the PC is only one level behind. For kills 14 through 21 the PC is even. For Kills 22 through 23 the PC is one level behind again, and for kills 24 through 25 the PC is even.
But what happens if a PC dies at one Exp away from Level four?
1(New Character): 0/2,000
2(Existing Character): 8,999/9,000
3(Existing Character): 8,999/9,000
4(Existing Character): 8,999/9,000
So a CR four grants 1,200 Exp or 300 to each PC. Player one will gain 600 Exp per CR Four. This means that he will need to kill 30 CR Four enemies to catch up. This assumes that on the last CR Four only enough "Bonus" Exp is granted to allow a character to catch up. This will result in the following Exp Spread.
1(New Character): 17,999/23,000
2(Existing Character): 17,999/23,000
3(Existing Character): 17,999/23,000
4(Existing Character): 17,999/23,000
This means the PC will have to wait until level five to catch up. Player one will also find that he is realistically able to contribute against CR four's only as a pure buff class, so for classes such as fighter or rogue until the 10th kill he will basically be demoted to "Flanker-Man". At this point the levels behind are as follows:
Kills_____Dead Guy Level___Existing PC Level
0 to 1_________1_________________3
2 to 4_________1_________________4
5 to 9_________2_________________4
10 to 15_______3_________________4
16 to 21_______4_________________4
22 to 30_______4_________________5
Remember it is at CR 4 where things like Fireball come-online for opponents. One good AE in the first 10 kills can easily make "Flanker-Man" dead again.
I think this shows what I am saying, however if you would like I will do the math up to say level 10?
As the characters get higher in level resetting to level one for new PC's means players being literally due to the math of the system unable to contribute.
It also means that the level one PC's should not at all be facing these challenges due to the fact that at level one they are no help, no threat, and at incredibly large amounts of risk of dieing to one AoO or AE effect.
Fireball, Lightening Bolt, Chain Lightening, Cloudkill, Blasphemy, and any other AE effect mean that past say level 5 or 6 your character is very likely to be on the fast track back to 0 Exp at level one against any opponent that your party should easily be able to handle due to APL=CR(1+5+5+5=16/4=4)(1+10+10+10=31/4=8).
The only way that I see around this is to use the effects I mentioned in my earlier post, which as I said amount to "Handwavium, Everything is easy!" or "Handwavium, this level one has the only possible plot granted item/ability/skill to solve this situation that will easily kill you level 6-10 hero's but cannot touch his level one self".
I would like to see a logical reason supported by math that this is a good rule and should be espoused for general use, as I feel it is so niche of a rule that it will only be used in select groups where everyone wants a specific feeling to the game.
This is something that takes a lot of GM intervention and effort, and can still easily make players feel useless and in my opinion lack in fun for said players.
That is why I believe the usual standard in my experience is to introduce a new PC within one level of the old.
In short I feel that simply granting double Exp could work for levels 1-3 but will become more and more painful from levels 4 and up.
Past level 6 or so you will be completely unable to contribute beyond perhaps casting spells such as bless or divine favor and will easily be destroyed without even costing an extra action to target you with AE type effects.
Can you really say the following is true if you are unable to do anything to help during an encounter due to being too fragile to even be in the area and unable to affect the enemy due to needing a 20 to hit/having DC's that are saved against except on a 1?
At the end of each session, award XP to each PC that participated.
Yes the lowest party member still alive. And yes that means that if you were already behind the group you might not loss any levels and if you were ahead of the group you might lose a couple of levels.
But the rules were made to first make death a very real penalty and something to be avoided if at all possible. And secondly to make sure that any restarted PCs were able to keep up with the group as a whole. The newbies being slightly less powerful and with weaker equipment. And since with these you can always catch back up the penalty isn't lasting.
Understood...as I said I don't have a real problem with it...as the penalty for death of a character is I don't get to play that character. I get into my characters...when I was younger I used to cry...now at time it feels like loosing a old friend(though I don't cry). But other might need a more incentive.
I think this could be a fitting punishment or counter to overly munchkiny players, and if it becomes an issue for regular players who arent just dying to get a character change or because they are bored then there are plenty of ways to bring people back from the dead in these wonderful fantasy settings. Heck, if the players manage to make some friends thru roleplaying they may even be owed favors or have backers who can help cover the costs of reviving the dead with no level loss. =)
Asta
PSYif a player wishes to change characters, instead of disemboweling themselves for a reroll.
they should ask their DM if at an appropriate time, they can change to a new character because they aren't too impressed with their current one. and even with a munchkin, you shouldn't penalize or punish them in game. you should talk to them out of game.
don't penalize the new PC just because they are a new PC. what high level party is honestly going to bother babysitting a penniless level 1 beggar?
I wasn't neccesarily saying level 1 bottoming out for every new character, but if you have multiple players doing things the wrong way by using intentional character deaths or wanting to change characters because they built exclusively to overpower levels 1-5 and now at level 8 they aren't the shining star of the party anymore so they wanna make a new gimmick that is uber at 8 but wouldn't get out of a barfight at level 1 then some of the solutions posted here would work.
Like a level or 2 below the highest or lowest level pc besides them, or by giving them limitations to make the new character believably come from the surrounding area. Most of the time when I have a player either wanting to switch characters due to innefectiveness or boredom I do have a nice little sitdown with them to make sure it's not for the wrong reasons or to be a recurring problem. If everything is kosher then the new guy is either found in the adventures or comes wandering in from a far away land to keep veresimilitude a little in check.
I may also be wierd in that I have my worlds populated not just by monsters and npc's, but also by other high level and high powered characters. If the PC's think they are the only ones in a setting with thier level of power aside from dieties it can sometimes lead to not thinking about the consequences of thier actions.
I actually had a player who was overall a pretty good guy and a friend overall, but sometimes took to his roleplaying a little too much. The incident in question happened when the party was up to around 15th level. They came into a mid sized city, about 1500 population, to do a little trade and recouperate. The wizard got the most expensive room, lots of food and fine wine, even the company of a lady, all on credit as one of the brave adventurers who came into town with so much gold and loot. A few days later when the party is rolling out of town the wizard refuses to pay at all and is told not to come back till he was ready to pay everything in full.
A few weeks go by, the cleric in the party even tries to talk to him in character to make restitutions, at which point the wizard said he would take care of everything the next time they went thru town. On said visit back to town the militia met the party at the gate. The party is admitted freely with the exception of the wizard. The wizard starts laughing in the guards faces and then begins walking away. As soon as he is well out of easy reach of the guards he pulls his nova routine and turns not only 20 or so innocent and well meaning guards to dust but also blows quite a hole in the gate. He walks into town and uses his display outside as an intimidation to get what he wants from the whole town. I ask him if he's sure 3-4 times thru this string of events and he replies yes everytime and towards the end even says "what can anyone here do to me?".
After he says this I let things go and he continues going around doing his thing even though the party all decides to give him a nice wide berth. About a week in town goes by this way until the excrement hits the fan. At that point the wizard wakes up with the entire establishment he had taken over as his own completely empty. He senses things are wrong and before he leaves his room he is completely packed, ready to travel, and buffed ready to fight. He finds on the street outside 3 elven wizards along with 12 troops. These were part of a group I had introduced much earlier in the game. A group organized jsut to keep spellcasters of the world from getting out of control. A sort of magic police. The elves were also wizards, and the troops were all using a slightly altered mage hunter prestige class. The fight was short, with the mages quickly countering the players spells and the troops then stopping him from casting and forcing him to surrender. His character was locked away for a few years of game time and he learned a very valueble lesson about my games.
Asta
PSY
the only thing i've learned from this thread is XP is a flawed system
more so in pathfinder than it was in 3.5
if you are going to force players who roll new characters to start at lower levels (and i've played this style as well, we had checkpoint levels that new characters would start at) you should adopt the XP system from 3.5 that scales and lets lower lvl characters grow at a quicker rate until they catch up in level, then it wont matter
hence XP is a flawed system
That doesn't mean that most players will Piccolo. I can sympathize with enjoying something outside the norms, but you do need to think of others' feelings as well.
Not good enough. Back when I started and continued playing, DEATH MEANT SOMETHING. Retire your PC? Your character croaked and couldn't be resurrected? Too bad, so sad. I can just hear the tiniest violin playing for the lot of you. I am SO sick and tired of these whining twits who expect all games to go wonderfully, that they should ALL be a walk in the bloody park.
Well, tough titties! You die, you retire your PC, make a new one, and you aren't going to get a high level replacement just BECAUSE. If that bothers you, pay up a feat for Leadership, and take over your cohort. But stop WHINING. I ain't gonna put up with it. This modern trend of damned easy video games has spoiled far too many of you. All obsessed with creating the perfect attack combination, or "optimizing" as you people put it, is total and utter nonsense! Every last one of you repeatedly creates glass cannons, and expects the DM to coddle you when you lose them!
HA!
Now, if someone is unhappy with how their PC turned out, have a chat with the DM, and see what can be worked out. But no "optimizing" to suit the current game setup. I am not going to sit there and give whiny baby players a "Get Out of Jail" card.
Eventually, I got sick of players deliberately killing themselves so they could come back with some absurd build deliberately minmaxed to peak at their current level or just because their attention span was too short for them to bother playing a single character for more than a few levels before getting distracted by some other shiny feat or something. So I brought back the oldest rule in the book:
New characters are new characters. They start at level 1 with starting equipment.
I've found this to be a fairly balanced solution in my games: new characters always start two levels lower than the highest level character in the party. They also start with level appropriate gear.
This means that new players or players creating new characters won't be as powerful as someone who has managed to have a character survive through the whole campaign, but they won't be so far behind that they feel useless or have to worry about instant death from the first fireball.
Of course, this only works well in games where you track EXP, since that allows the new character to eventually catch up.
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hence XP is a flawed system
All systems have flaws. It's just a matter of which flaws you can work around.
I've compared the two systems a couple times before.
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Learn to play!
No.
Learn to play!
I did!
It was some process but I know how to play and more important with whom to play. Life is too short to play with kiddies.(not wanting in any way to suggest anyone here might be a kiddy.)
so the new 'thing' is someone can only be allowed to have one character at a time, and if you want to play something else you either have to retire and start at lvl 1 or be killed by the DM?
seems harsh, my group has a story where all our characters are part of a joint organization, and we can interchange characters all the time for different quests if we need something else because our cleric guy cant show up this week, or someone gets bored of playing a fighter with no skill points
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Not good enough. Back when I started and continued playing, DEATH MEANT SOMETHING. Retire your PC? Your character croaked and couldn't be resurrected? Too bad, so sad. I can just hear the tiniest violin playing for the lot of you.
News flash: Nobody gives a rat's ass!
I am SO sick and tired of these whining twits who expect all games to go wonderfully, that they should ALL be a walk in the bloody park.
And I'm tired of all these whiny twits who keep b+~+*ing about how awesome the good ol' days were. you liked the older editions? Play the older editions? You don't like this game? GTFO. Or get over it and enjoy the game, one, I honestly don't care which. Actually, I would in fact prefer it if you enjoyed the game, because then we could have something to talk about besides how everyone should suck on your peen because you started playing some 30 years ago.
Well, tough titties! You die, you retire your PC, make a new one, and you aren't going to get a high level replacement just BECAUSE. If that bothers you, pay up a feat for Leadership, and take over your cohort. But stop WHINING. I ain't gonna put up with it. This modern trend of damned easy video games has spoiled far too many of you. All obsessed with creating the perfect attack combination, or "optimizing" as you people put it, is total and utter nonsense! Every last one of you repeatedly creates glass cannons, and expects the DM to coddle you when you lose them!
So where has ANYONE talked about optimizing for each level or making nothing but glass cannons?
Find me ONE POST that's not the OP that references that and I'll consider this little rant something other than pointless whining.
No, the vast majority of the posts in this thread have been about how utterly bumf@@! stupid starting a new character at level 1 in this game is, ESPECIALLY when that person died from a run of bad luck. This game was not designed with that in mind. It does not work in this system. Especially not with half-assed implementations of the rule that don't take into account all the changes that D&D and D&D derivatives have gone through.