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One key point to look out for is that you want to ensure that the penalty for level drains is not generally worse than the penalty for a character dying and being replaced by a new character -- otherwise your players will do their best to get any characters with negative levels killed. A DM needs to pay attention to these details rather than just complain about rational reactions by his players to the conditions in his campaign.
Piccolo wrote: I have dealt with whining players before. The solution is to start over, and get medieval about it (in more ways than one). Are you sure you're not playing fourth edition? I heard that that was the edition that settled disputes by "taking the (Insert expletive) outside, and settling it like men god damn it."
While I heard it was just another RPG where people play a game and have fun together.
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Lamontius wrote:
have fun together.
According to some people's opinion if you have fun while gaming you're doing it wrong. Or at least if the players are having fun.
Umbranus wrote: Lamontius wrote:
have fun together.
According to some people's opinion if you have fun while gaming you're doing it wrong. Or at least if the players are having fun. And then there are those that insist on the reverse.
Arssanguinus wrote: Umbranus wrote: Lamontius wrote:
have fun together.
According to some people's opinion if you have fun while gaming you're doing it wrong. Or at least if the players are having fun. And then there are those that insist on the reverse. If you are doing it wrong, then you have fun?
Or
If you are doing it wrong, then the players have fun?
The Fox wrote: Arssanguinus wrote: Umbranus wrote: Lamontius wrote:
have fun together.
According to some people's opinion if you have fun while gaming you're doing it wrong. Or at least if the players are having fun. And then there are those that insist on the reverse. If you are doing it wrong, then you have fun?
Or
If you are doing it wrong, then the players have fun? The whole "what the gm wants is irrelevant as long as the players have fun" bit.
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The primary criterion for identifying a good GM is if everyone is having fun.
If GM's fun and players' fun are mutually exclusive you have either a bad GM or bad group composition. If some of the players are having fun the problem is the group. If only the GM is having fun the problem is probably with the GM.
This is somewhat complicated by the existence of alcohol. If a game is fun but would not be fun if everyone were sober you still have either a bad GM or bad group composition.
Pendagast wrote:
Great heroes, great deeds, at level 1-2....use different enemies.
You are going too fast with "cool monsters"
IF thats the game they want, they need to be fighting goblins, giant toads, NPC classes like experts and warriors, with the occasional "mad adept" hurling a spell or two.
Not Zuvembies and Schrirs?
Tone down the exotic monsters until they are higher level and can handle the saves etc to make the negative effects less common.
I think youre just getting over zealous with exciting monsters you want to use.
If you need undead, a zombie, skeleton, or ghoul will do fine. Even a skeleton champion here and here.
Need more power?
Add a level or two of fighter, cleric or anti-paladin to them, as this stuff adds no monster powers they dont like.
By the time they get higher level, they will be able to to do more things, and counter more effects on their own and it will be less of a issue.
Thanks for the tip, I think it may indeed be best to use strange creatures less often. Whenever I needed undead I did mostly use zombies and skeletons with the rare ghoul dropping in, I primarily used the zuvembie as the 'true face' of the person they really hated and wanted to kill, the schir was probably an unnecessary extra.
You either have to just make it a pure numbers game; and play the way they want to, or you are going to have to break their mindset of playing pure numbers.
To change the way they look at it, I would suggest creating scenarios where there is a clear 'winning' condition, and a clear way to win with pure numbers, but going for that clear way to win with pure numbers actually is a disadvantage.
For example, the classic mayor 'my daughter is stuck in that castle, go get her', you fight your way in, you kill the final boss, drops the loot of swords and stuff, bring the girl back, mayor asks "Who is this? And why do you have my daughters swords and stuff on your waist?"
When they do complain about how you never told them the daughter is the final boss, tell them their characters never asked, did not know what she looked like, and just generally did not have any clue at all what they were supposed to be doing.
Also, make clear and easy ways that they can advance the story, make their characters more powerful (that will be the important hook for them), more loot, everything, but make it so they have to do something that temporarily makes them weaker. Also, give them a path to the same end that is also clear, but isn't easy. Brutal combat, terrible sacrifices, things of that nature, but the characters don't get afflicted. Make it clear that they made it a lot harder on themselves.
This is going to cause 1 of 2 things to happen, either they will gradually start making their characters do more talking, more 'rp', or they will use their numbers even harder. You need to make it clear that numbers don't win every encounter.
Intrexa wrote: You either have to just make it a pure numbers game; and play the way they want to, or you are going to have to break their mindset of playing pure numbers.
To change the way they look at it, I would suggest creating scenarios where there is a clear 'winning' condition, and a clear way to win with pure numbers, but going for that clear way to win with pure numbers actually is a disadvantage.
For example, the classic mayor 'my daughter is stuck in that castle, go get her', you fight your way in, you kill the final boss, drops the loot of swords and stuff, bring the girl back, mayor asks "Who is this? And why do you have my daughters swords and stuff on your waist?"
When they do complain about how you never told them the daughter is the final boss, tell them their characters never asked, did not know what she looked like, and just generally did not have any clue at all what they were supposed to be doing.
Also, make clear and easy ways that they can advance the story, make their characters more powerful (that will be the important hook for them), more loot, everything, but make it so they have to do something that temporarily makes them weaker. Also, give them a path to the same end that is also clear, but isn't easy. Brutal combat, terrible sacrifices, things of that nature, but the characters don't get afflicted. Make it clear that they made it a lot harder on themselves.
This is going to cause 1 of 2 things to happen, either they will gradually start making their characters do more talking, more 'rp', or they will use their numbers even harder. You need to make it clear that numbers don't win every encounter.
Actually 1 of 3 things. If they are too upset by the game change they may stop playing entirely.
"Breaking" the way people think is never a good idea unless they're on board with you from the start about changing. If they're not interested in the story trying to force them to be interested is likely just to make people angry.
If you don't want that at your table that's understandable. Going in with the express intent of breaking someones mindset can have some pretty dire ramifications though, especially based on maturity of the parties involved.
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