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More specifically, what happens in regards to weapon proficiency when a Cleric (or other classes like Inquisitor) when they change their deity later on, without using a rebuild opton? Normally Cleric's gain proficiency with their Deity's Favored Weapon at 1st Cleric level, and when a Cleric falls, they lose everything but skills, HP, Saves, and Weapons and Armor.
Normally, when a Cleric changes their deity, they lose all spellcasting, Domains, and Channel Energy (I think) until they find another deity, where they then regain spellcasting abilities, need to pick two appropriate Domains, and (if they do in fact lose it), regain Channel Energy but might again need to take the appropriate type.
My understanding is that they do not recieve the new deities Favored Weapon prof, and keep the original one, but I'm not sure how this is handled in PFS, or if changing deity is even allowed.
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I'd imagine at the least, they'd need an atonement spell cast.
Secondly, any deity specific stuff would change, so any feats you later took tied to a specific weapon, would basically be useless (and you could not change them barring the 1st level rebuild rules--or Tier 1 GM at Gen Con free total rebuild boon).
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Secondly, any deity specific stuff would change, so any feats you later took tied to a specific weapon, would basically be useless (and you could not change them barring the 1st level rebuild rules--or Tier 1 GM at Gen Con free total rebuild boon).
Not exactly the same situation as the OP, but something similar: I have a non-cleric with a deity-specific trait. I've been pondering taking a level of cleric, but not in the same faith as that associated with the aforementioned trait. Said character would simply lose that trait should I choose to proceed down this path, yes?
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I don't think you would lose proficiency with your old deity's favored weapon, because it's not (as far as I can tell) a supernatural, divinely-granted ability. It's just part of the mundane training that every cleric gets in seminary, or whatever.
I do think an atonement is appropriate, if only to keep people from switching every scenario to pick the best domains for their particular situation.
Although, absent any rules that cover it, I'd be more inclined to say it can't be done in PFS at all.
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Not exactly the same situation as the OP, but something similar: I have a non-cleric with a deity-specific trait. I've been pondering taking a level of cleric, but not in the same faith as that associated with the aforementioned trait. Said character would simply lose that trait should I choose to proceed down this path, yes?
Ooh, that's a tricky one. The Demon Hunter trait specifically says "whether or not you are currently a follower," but several other deity-specific traits suggest that they are supernatural divine gifts that require continued devotion. Then again, one of either Mike or Mark has said that you can "re-skin" traits, so... beats me.
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Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
Putting on my GM hat for a moment:
I would rule that turning from one's deity to another grossly violates the original deity's code of conduct and a cleric doing so would lose the associated weapon proficiency (unless that weapon is a simple weapon, of course).
I might (might...) rule that levels of cleric in the new deity do not stack with levels of cleric in the old deity. Would consider such a thing more seriously in a home game; unsure how it should be handled in PFS play.
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Secondly, any deity specific stuff would change, so any feats you later took tied to a specific weapon, would basically be useless (and you could not change them barring the 1st level rebuild rules--or Tier 1 GM at Gen Con free total rebuild boon).Not exactly the same situation as the OP, but something similar: I have a non-cleric with a deity-specific trait. I've been pondering taking a level of cleric, but not in the same faith as that associated with the aforementioned trait. Said character would simply lose that trait should I choose to proceed down this path, yes?
Well technically you are considered a worshiper of said faith, which means first you have to be within 1 step alignment-wise of your deity. This is the only way to be able to take traits/feats/spells/etc. that are deity-specific.
If you swap deities as a worshiper, you probably need to spend the 500gp or 2PP to officially swap deities. And yes, you'd lose access to the trait (and cannot replace it) if you no longer worshipped that deity.
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Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).Putting on my GM hat for a moment:
I would rule that turning from one's deity to another grossly violates the original deity's code of conduct and a cleric doing so would lose the associated weapon proficiency (unless that weapon is a simple weapon, of course).
I might (might...) rule that levels of cleric in the new deity do not stack with levels of cleric in the old deity. Would consider such a thing more seriously in a home game; unsure how it should be handled in PFS play.
With an atonement for a cleric, its the more expensive version, I think 3,000gp or 8PP. With that atonement they could "re-up" with their old deity, or change deities to more match their new philosophical outlook.
I'd definitely rule they lose their weapon proficiency, but their cleric levels would be unaffected as long as they paid for the atonement.
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Well technically you are considered a worshiper of said faith, which means first you have to be within 1 step alignment-wise of your deity. This is the only way to be able to take traits/feats/spells/etc. that are deity-specific.
Yes. Said character is a "legal" worshipper of said faith. However, said character is of a class which is not required to choose a deity; the deity was chosen for flavor, but I have played said character as a "worshipper."
If you swap deities as a worshiper, you probably need to spend the 500gp or 2PP to officially swap deities. And yes, you'd lose access to the trait (and cannot replace it) if you no longer worshipped that deity.
I can understand that. I do consider the character a "worshipper" and adhere/would adhere to any and all rules pertaining to such. I'm more than willing to lose the trait; less willing to spend the gold or PP. I will have to give this some additional thought.
Here's a related question, though: Suppose I had a character that did not need to choose a deity and has no traits, feats or abilities tied to any particular deity, but I had chosen to role-play said character as a follower of a specific deity. Would such a character still need to pay the gold or PP cost to switch deities, even if both the original deity and new deity were chosen solely for role-play and provided no mechanical benefits?
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With an atonement for a cleric, its the more expensive version, I think 3,000gp or 8PP. With that atonement they could "re-up" with their old deity, or change deities to more match their new philosophical outlook.
I'd definitely rule they lose their weapon proficiency, but their cleric levels would be unaffected as long as they paid for the atonement.
I missed the bit about losing weapon proficiency for ex-clerics. I agree this seems like the most reasonable course of action.
@The Earl of Gray Park: Golarion is essentially polytheistic, which is to say that most people call upon different gods under different circumstances. So a character who receives no divine power could worship multiple deities. For clerics, etc., it's a little more iffy.
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I would say that up and to the point you actually choose a mechanical benefit, you are considered a "follower" or "lay practitioner" rather than a "worshiper" and you would not need to spend any gold or PP for an atonement, as the Deity hasn't really "answered your prayers" yet.
Once you choose a mechanical benefit for your character, you are considered a worshiper, and need an atonement to make a change.
Additionally, remember, if you are 1st level, and have not played your 4th scenario yet, you can make the change without having to spend resources or get an atonement to do so.
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A special side note, almost all the deity-specific traits, feats, and spells are not actually deity-specific. They simply means that it is more common for Clerics (or followers) of that deity to take or use those things, unless it has the prereq along the lines of "must have _____ as a Patron deity" or specifies in the text that if you stop being a follower of ________, you lose this trait/feat.
For example: "Good does not fight evil by its mere existence, and most
of the gods of good teach that their worshipers must take active roles in preventing the spread of corruption in the mortal world. The feats detailed below are not necessarily unique to the followers of these gods, but appear far more commonly among the congregations of these gods." from Faiths of Purity, whereas it does specify that all of the Traits are concidered specific to the deity.
I should also point out that changing deity is part of the core rules, and I don't know of anything in PFS that specifies that is illegal, so I assum it works just like changing alignment and basically uses the same "rules" as in the PF CRB.
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I should also point out that changing deity is part of the core rules, and I don't know of anything in PFS that specifies that is illegal, so I assum it works just like changing alignment and basically uses the same "rules" as in the PF CRB.
Where are those rules? I only have access to the PRD right now, but it's not in the cleric section there.
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yes, i would like to see them also, i have so far searched CRB, APG, UM, and gods and magic, and have found no reference to what happens if you voluntarily want to change your god. (although obviously i could have missed something, but searching through PDFs for references to the word 'cleric' turned up nothing.)
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It's a combination of material from Changing Alignment, the Ex-Cleric, and the Attonment spell. Honestly, though after rechecking it, I remember there being more. I know there have been a few topics that came up here on the boards for it, but honestly, just looking through the CRB real fast I didn't see what I was looking for, and the few I did see where not realy the same topic. :(
Contributor
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Not exactly the same situation as the OP, but something similar: I have a non-cleric with a deity-specific trait. I've been pondering taking a level of cleric, but not in the same faith as that associated with the aforementioned trait. Said character would simply lose that trait should I choose to proceed down this path, yes?
In every (as far as my ancient history degree arse knows) culture that's had a pantheistic system, exclusive worship of *only* one god/goddess was a rare thing - often people would have a primary deity, but would offer honorific prayers and respect to others.
Long story short - I think being a cleric of one god and honoring another is perfectly fine...so long as the god you're a cleric of is on good terms with the other one (i.e. Rovagug + nobody)
I'd probably say that it's not allowed if it happened in my area, barring some better advice from the mods or devs..
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where does it say that the deity your cleric worships (and receives spells from) is also his/her 'patron'? the idea of a patron giving actual game mechanic benefits is new from 3.5 and has never been really defined.
I have always been of the opinion that you could worship one god, but really like another (ie patron). I have a paladin who worships Apsu, and that's where he gets his paladin powers (for his background story) but his patron is Saronrae because of all the help he has gotten in his life from her followers.
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In PFS you may only have on Patron Deity, so if you where a multiclass Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, you would need to have the same deity for all three. Likewise with the Cleric and the Deity Trait.I am assuming you mean Religion Trait rather than Deity Trait.
And if so, it has a problem. In the APG (the book that introduced traits), the first Relition Trait listed is Asmodean Demon Hunter which reads:
Asmodean Demon Hunter (Asmodeous): Raised in the church of Asmodeus (whether or not you are currently a follower), you’ve focused your indoctrinated fervor primarily on the elimination of demons. You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) checks about demons and a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting spells and effects from demons.bolding is mine.
so, if you have to keep the diety, why does it say "whether or not you are currently a follower" to keep the trait?
several of the others seem to address the early training your PC recieved as being how you gain the trait. Phrases like "you worked in" or "your religious training involved" seems to be just stuff your PC learned, not gifts from a diety.
No, meant Deity Trait, meaning either a Deity specific Trait or one that requires you to pick a specific Deity (like Birthmark). Not all are Faith Traits, but most are. I could be wrong, but I believe that for PFS it was actually ruled that you do need Asshatdeos as a Patron to take that Trait. It's been a long time though, I honestly don't remember, or even where to begin to look for that thread, so don't take my word for it. :)
where does it say that the deity your cleric worships (and receives spells from) is also his/her 'patron'? the idea of a patron giving actual game mechanic benefits is new from 3.5 and has never been really defined.
I have always been of the opinion that you could worship one god, but really like another (ie patron). I have a paladin who worships Apsu, and that's where he gets his paladin powers (for his background story) but his patron is Saronrae because of all the help he has gotten in his life from her followers.
Various people at Paizo and the PFS staff have said it a lot. All Clerics require a Patron Deity who grants them their spells and powers. That doesn't mean that you can't also worship other deities, but can only have one Patron Deity, who (well in theory as well as intent) should be their central faith. Paladins do not requre a Patron Deity, but if they do, it must be a LG, NG, or LN one who can have Paladins, and if they do they need to both maintain their deity's teachings and their normal Paladin code. Inquisitors, I can't honestly remember if they need one or not. Like Clerics, in the Core book they do not, but I want to say that in PFS they do and follow the same rules as the Cleric, except the class has a built in way to bypass all that. Druids do not, but again, if they do, it needs to be a naturish Deity, and yadda, yadda, yadda, ex-Druid. So you'r kind of rigt. You can worship (and really like) other deities, or even philosphies, but as a Cleric you need to still have a single Patron Deity, who dictates your Domains, Favored weapon, guidelins and tabboos, extra spells (sometimes), and things like that.
About the Patron Deity being new and undefined, you are correct, though there is a histry to that back to 2E, (possibly 1E, but it was mostly just a Cleric of "the Light"). In 4E they kept the Patron Deity, but it wasn't singular for anyone, especially the Cleric. For Example, the 4E Cleric can take special Deity specific Feats that grant a new power and also add another Patron Deity, which I kind of liked. A lot actually. It left it purely in the player's hands to define their characters beliefs and philosophy and really wasn't tied to morality or gamepower.
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So why does dropping one god for another require an atonement? I understand mechanically we wouldn't want people flip flopping every game for mechanical advantage, but I am not seeing anything RAW or RAI that would suggest taking on a new god (unless you were very out of favor with them) or leaving a god for good would take an atonement. Abandoning and coming back sure, but I would think that gods would see leaving another for them as a unilateral upgrade, not something they would try to discourage. The language of the spell is all off for this purpose as well.
Apostasy (pron.: /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt', from ἀπό, apo, 'away, apart', στάσις, stasis, 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate.
I think the problem is we view cleric as a generic sort of thing, like "rogue" or "fighter"..
Perhaps if you look at it as "Cleric of <insert Deity>", it would be more clear. A "Cleric of __________" without ______________ isn't a cleric of anything really..
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Apostasy (pron.: /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt', from ἀπό, apo, 'away, apart', στάσις, stasis, 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate.
I think the problem is we view cleric as a generic sort of thing, like "rogue" or "fighter"..
Perhaps if you look at it as "Cleric of <insert Deity>", it would be more clear. A "Cleric of __________" without ______________ isn't a cleric of anything really..
I can renounce my affiliation for any group in favor of another and expect the punishment/anger to come solely from the old group (assuming the new group trusts my intentions). I don't really see what you are getting at.
I can renounce my affiliation for any group in favor of another and expect the punishment/anger to come solely from the old group (assuming the new group trusts my intentions). I don't really see what you are getting at.Apostasy (pron.: /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt', from ἀπό, apo, 'away, apart', στάσις, stasis, 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate.
I think the problem is we view cleric as a generic sort of thing, like "rogue" or "fighter"..
Perhaps if you look at it as "Cleric of <insert Deity>", it would be more clear. A "Cleric of __________" without ______________ isn't a cleric of anything really..
If all your powers and abilities come from Old God, punishment/anger is really just withdrawal of said powers and abilities.
New God may give you powers and abilities, but you lose everything from Old God.
So.. Instead of being "Cleric of Old God <x levels>", you elect to become a character who is "Ex-Cleric of Old God <x levels> (With all the penalties associated with ex-clerichood), Cleric of New God <y levels> (With all the benefits associated with ex-clerichood)".
I can see that. For spells I can follow that line of logic. I don't think it's RAW, but makes sense.
That's my issue.. I don't have any RAW on point to tell me (1) good way of looking at it or (2) utter crap. For me, it always comes back to this:
"Although, absent any rules that cover it, I'd be more inclined to say it can't be done in PFS at all."
I've been fortunate in the sense that nobody has tried it here yet..