4, 7, and 8/10
However, despite thinking archery is the strongest choice (because it's pretty much the strongest choice for any fighty type), I think using a Two-Handed weapon and using Two-Weapon Fighting with a shield bash as your offhand are both good and viable options. Two-Handers always hit like a truck, and Smite Evil adds its damage to each attack, making TWF surprisingly strong.
Maximizing AC and using only a single weapon is pretty much a waste for anyone, unless you are playing with a specific GM that you know will honor the "code of the tank" and actually have his enemies attack you, despite the fact that you are extremely hard to hit and otherwise not an especially large threat to anyone. Or if you're a Sacred Shield, since they can halve all the damage nearby allies receive.
I think Divine Bond is a runaway favorite over a mount. But then, I have zero interest in mounted combat, and especially in needing an extra skill (Ride) for little gain, since most situations won't really allow for a horse anyway.
I put 8/10 because I think Paladins need Perception, a Social Skill, and then as many knowledges as they can afford to grab, so they can identify evil creatures without relying on a move action. If your GM is the sort that doesn't let knowledge checks give alignments, then they just need a social skill.
Obviously a broad skill array is always better, but it's not necessary, and is not especially easy for a Paladin to acquire anyway, since they need Charisma and all three physical stats for the most part.
i would say it completely depends on the groups needs,
paladins can be the most effective tank in the game, using the 2HW route to throw themselves into melee
they can also climb to the top of the DPR/Glass Cannon route if theres already a tank if you decide to go archery
2nd best DPR style is mounted, though it is the most restricting in feats and in tactics
sword and board style is the absolute best AC and Damage you can get together, considering smite works with all attacks, it can net slightly less damage than the archer, but you get to be melee and have high AC, its really good for being autonomous and having to do things on your own, i also think that if you are going to want more wide skills and force the paladin to have roles in the party like being the healer, then the 'power turtle' build is the right way to go
there is no absolute 'best' way to play the class, like with all classes, it depends on your team and making sure you offer something that they dont already have
they can also climb to the top of the DPR/Glass Cannon route if theres already a tank if you decide to go archery
Just want to point out that a Paladin Archer is not a glass cannon.
My tiefling Paladin archer has the best AC in the party without even trying by 3-4 points. My lay on hands heals me for over 1/4 of my HP on average (at level 8, I have 80 HP and my Lay On Hands with Greater Mercy heals 5d6+8).
I've been so hard to hurt, before I got Shield Other, I used to shoot in melee just because--now I just take half the Fighter's damage for him.
they can also climb to the top of the DPR/Glass Cannon route if theres already a tank if you decide to go archeryJust want to point out that a Paladin Archer is not a glass cannon.
My tiefling Paladin archer has the best AC in the party without even trying by 3-4 points. My lay on hands heals me for over 1/4 of my HP on average (at level 8, I have 80 HP and my Lay On Hands with Greater Mercy heals 5d6+8).
I've been so hard to hurt, before I got Shield Other, I used to shoot in melee just because--now I just take half the Fighter's damage for him.
i call them glass cannon because they are the DPR guy that isnt the tank, and also because max HP values are usually lower because you value DEX over CON when you buy your stats
they are bulletproof-glass cannons i guess
i call them glass cannon because they are the DPR guy that isnt the tank, and also because max HP values are usually lower because you value DEX over CON when you buy your stats
I did value Dex over Con, but the GM made us roll for HP--we also rolled for stats. Normally, I'd complain, but I got good ones. No, I'm still going to complain on principle, but I didn't get shafted at least.
they are bulletproof-glass cannons i guess
I like that, but honestly, I feel like a real world tank--I hit like a truck at range, and I'm nearly impossible to hurt. Paladins are kind of ridiculous, especially with a high point buy or good rolls.
they are for sure way better than they were in 3.5 mostly because you have the option of going the mounted route rather than being forced into it
that said mounts arent bad, and you can make some serious stuff happen with them
what really makes them shine is how many different roles they can play now that smite has been made so much better that archery is actually an option
my personal favorite is a 2HW flying charger with antagonize, maxes out social skills and does all the paladiny things
ive also been fidling with a sort of switch-hitter build, but unlike rangers, you cant skip PBS, still:
Switch Hitter Paladin:
Human
20 point buy
15 STR
15 DEX
12 CON
13 INT
7 WIS
14 CHA
25 point buy
15 STR
15 DEX
12 CON
13 INT
7 WIS
16 CHA
feats:
1) Power Attack, Point Blank Shot
3) Quickdraw
5) Rapid Shot
7) Many Shot
9) Deadly Aim
11) Unsanctioned Knowledge
far from perfect, but you get the idea
THW and Sword and Board are not mutually exclusive, btw. Most one handed weapons can be wielded in two hands at need...you're only giving up 1-2 pts dmg if you don't use a greatsword, and have considerably more flexibility as needed.
==Aelryinth
The term "glass cannon" is one that applies to a character (or character type/class) that hits really hard, but cannot take a hit (and thusly, shatters like glass). A paladin is, in no way, a "glass cannon" unless you specifically handicap them via extremely poor choices or by intent. (See also: glass cannon)
To the original poster, I agree with statements 4 and 7 (conditionally). Numbers 1, 2 & 3 suggest that the makers of those statements are only familiar with paladins in the context of World of Warcraft, and Pathfinder Paladins are not just "threat-generating tanks that have no other role in a party save, perhaps, as a backup healer". Those three actually make me metaphorically cringe. Statement 1 is blatantly untrue in that as a non-two-hander (or non-castigator paladin), you can still do respectable-to-frightening amounts of damage, though the part about AC is not completely without merit. Statement 2 assumes that a GM is going to "play nice" or "play stupid" and attempt to swarm the paladin as the "greatest threat" because he's got the highest armour class. If your GM is not "playing nice" or "playing stupid", your foes will go for easier prey and leave the tin-can-cracking for last. Statement 3 further suggests that two-weapon builds (or flurry paladins) are the most viable because you'll maximize your damage, but they're challenging to balance and feat-expensive; a fighter with twice as many feats has a better than even chance of beating your damage output even with your smiting.
Statement 5 is utter rubbish as far as I am concerned, statement 6 is viable (though not for every paladin) and statements 8 through 10 are all situational; your group's play style may determine which of these factors is most applicable. Statement 7 is questionable; it's my preferred suggestion in most cases to take Weapon Bond, but there are cases where the games lend themselves more to mount utility instead. Statement 4 is, perhaps, the "closest to true" statement, though it also depends upon battle situations and upon play style.
Best wishes!
THW and Sword and Board are not mutually exclusive, btw. Most one handed weapons can be wielded in two hands at need...you're only giving up 1-2 pts dmg if you don't use a greatsword, and have considerably more flexibility as needed.
==Aelryinth
true story, i once planned on playing a paladin that went sword and board wielding a sunblade (was gonna craft it myself at like lvl 11), and busting out my shield when i felt i needed AC
then i discovered the shield master feat tree, and the way i see it, if you're gonna do it, do it right, and if you're gonna do it, dont purposely NOT use it, whats the point in taking the shield master feat tree if im just gonna swing my sword around with 2 hands anyway? at least thats how i feel
The term "glass cannon" is one that applies to a character (or character type/class) that hits really hard, but cannot take a hit (and thusly, shatters like glass). A paladin is, in no way, a "glass cannon" unless you specifically handicap them via extremely poor choices or by intent. (See also: glass cannon)
again, i used the term to mean "the guy whose job is to do DPR, but isnt there to take all the hits"
i just call him the glass cannon since i cant think of a better term off the top of my head for it, one could argue that paladins make the best glass cannons because of how durable that glass is
The term "glass cannon" is one that applies to a character (or character type/class) that hits really hard, but cannot take a hit (and thusly, shatters like glass). A paladin is, in no way, a "glass cannon" unless you specifically handicap them via extremely poor choices or by intent. (See also: glass cannon)
again, i used the term to mean "the guy whose job is to do DPR, but isnt there to take all the hits"
i just call him the glass cannon since i cant think of a better term off the top of my head for it, one could argue that paladins make the best glass cannons because of how durable that glass is
A better term might be a "cannon", since they're made of metal and all. :)
Paladins should multi-class with rangers........
........just trolling along.....
in 3.5 there was a feat called devoted tracker that let you stack levels for smite evil, and let you stack the effects for your mount/animal companion
it was called the ubermount build
my personal favorite thing to do with it was to take the mounted combat style for my ranger levels (ride-by attack and spirited charge for free) which left all my feats open to do whatever i wanted with my character, so i would take sword of the arcane order, since my paladin and ranger levels stacked for the purpose of determining CL of those spells
but to challenge statement #5, there isnt anything that prevents paladins from being effective archers beyond the lack of feats, and even then you can get all the important ones done before lvl 9 if you dedicate the build to it, just because they dont get it for free doesnt mean they cant do it
Paladins by and large rule at just about everything they do... If I could change 1 thing, it would be 4 skills/lvl. Same with all 2 skill point characters especially the fighter. If bravery gave a scaling bonus to all will saves, then you bring the fighter back on par with the paladin who IMO is the undisputed tank in PF.
The first half of your pointed statements seem to try to determine the best paladin build, but they are all extremely viable... Weapon bond vs mount is kind of situational, but I would personally take the weapon and leadership for a mount. Paladins simply lack skills, so all of your last statements are again up to player preference as to which skills they prefer to max with their meager selection. I (again personally) like to spread my skills around because I like the RP aspect of the game more than the combat (which is why I have always liked bards and rogues even when they sucked).
My 2cp...
Do you think that paladins can be just as good at archery as Rangers?
Unquestionably.
Ranger, Fighter, and Paladin all make equally good rangers because all of them get full BAB such that they can take all the necessary archery feats by level 7 (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Clustered Shot for non-Paladins, since they can ignore DR with smite anyway). All three also get static damage mods that add to each arrow (weapon spec/training, favored enemy, and smite).
Rangers and Paladins each have their own strengths and weaknesses, but they're ultimately just about equal overall.
1, 4, 7 are things I agree with, though 1 and 4 are contradictory.
1 is default Paladin for me if you're starting with a low level character because you have everything you need with Power Attack. Archery is much more feat intensive and Paladins don't get bonus feats, but is more powerful once established. TWF isn't something I'd really consider for Paladin at all because of the strict ability score requirements (and that's on a 15 point buy if you're talking FPS) plus amount of feats.
7 - mounts can be great but are also really situational. I've seen plenty of times where trying to get a large sized animal somewhere just became a nightmare... if you're small size though I could see it working.
One of the reasons I absolutely love the paladin in Pathfinder is because there really are so many different options. Two handed fighter, archer, two weapon fighter (although it's much harder to do), and heck you can do any of those mounted!
In general I agree with all of them but 5. At different times, in different campaigns and settings, any of those can be true or useful. Although my personal favorite is probably the weapon-bonded two handed fighter. Dat Falchion.
Which of these statements about paladin builds do you agree with, and why? Assume that we're talking about PFS, not home games. There's a lot of conflicting advice on this board and I'm trying to spark a little healthy discussion and debate.
1. Paladins should use two-handed weapons. If they don't, they won't do enough damage to draw attacks from monsters. Paladins can always heal themselves so their AC doesn't need to be great.
2. Paladins should strive to max AC, using shields and maybe even Combat Expertise. If they don't, they aren't really a tank. They will get overwhelmed by monsters with multiple attacks if their AC is too low. Paladins can't beat fighters and barbarians at the two-handed damage game, so they should focus on being rock-solid defenders instead.
3. Paladins should build for two-weapon fighting, maximizing the extra damage from smite evil.
4. The archer Paladin is the strongest way to go, smiting evil at range. You will absolutely melt evil monsters.
5. Archer paladins are nonsense. You will never be a better archer than a Ranger or Zen Archer monk, so get in the front line where you can use Lay on Hands to best effect.
6. Mount is the way to go for mobility, height advantage, and more. You can get your mount in the dungeon if you put your mind to it.
7. You will never get your mount in the dungeon, or at least not enough for it to be worthwhile. Take Weapon Bond instead.
8. Besides Perception, the only skill a Paladin really needs is a social skill - Intimidate or Diplomacy.
9. Besides Perception, Paladins need Climb and Swim.
10. Besides Perception, Paladins need the Knowledge skills that help identify evil monsters, like Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Planes).
11. Paladins need a broad skill array.
It all entirely depends upon the God that the Paladin worships.