|
Ok give me some examples of that. Trying to find an alchemy item that it would be worth it for for the cost. Those things are expensive.
You got alchemist fire (can last two rounds), takes a full round to put out.
-Thunderstones can deafen a caster.
-Tanglefoot bags entangle, and if the target fails his save glues them in place
-Tangleburn does that AND burns..and if you use water.. it flares up.
-Alkali does extra damage to oozes.
A full on Alchemist can get a craft roll in to make them (1/2 cost) and anyone with a day job Alchemcy skill can get a Artisan Vanity which gives a 5% discount. (Not a lot granted.. my GS/Alch has a gun shop instead)
Grenadier works as well as a multiclass really well.
If you get Explosive Missile @ 4th (and you're not 2h fire arms focused like me), and twist in a lot of Alchemical discoveries for bombs it can be ignored/skipped for a vanilla mad bomber/sniper build
|
The hybridization funnel (200 gp) Ultimate Equipment allows you to combine two alchemical items into one vial with a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check; half-elves get a +5 bonus on this check.
With Skill Focus: Craft (alchemy) and a 14 intellect, you can get up to a +10 by level 2 easily. I would recommend combining alchemist's fire and acid for an easy 3d6 damage (2d6 first round and 1d6 after, and of course add your intelligence to the damage) for the cost of 30 gp. Remember though that anything you don't use becomes inert after 24 hours, so you can't mix your entire stock. The mixing also takes 10 minutes each, so have some set aside for a tough fight.
Don't forget that alchemists are allowed to craft alchemical items in PFS; in fact, they are the only class allowed to do so. Since you can craft for a third of the cost, you could use your day job of +10 (so 20 gp for taking 10) to give yourself two of these to throw every fight.
Now I don't know if you are a half-elf, but a human will be able to do the same only a few levels later, and it will allow you to conserve your bombs at low levels, as well as make for a very deadly arrow.
|
|
The hybridization funnel is fantastic. :D
Unfortunately, my alchemist was too high level when UE came out to make very much use out of it; however, being able to create what is essentially a 3d6+int bomb at level 1-2 for the low price of 10 gp is amazing.
Actually, I'm starting to want to make a half-elf alchemist at this point. They are amazing blasters.
|
|
Sorry, I could have been more specific in the breakdown.
Throwing together a rough build, a half-elf could have his or her funnel by the end of level 1 (requires 4 fame to purchase). Directly after your first game you could have a day job check of 25 (+2 alchemy lab +2 intellect +3 Skill Focus +3 skill +1 rank +5 crafter's fortune), which comes to 50 gp for every day job after the first.
This money can funnel directly into crafting acid and alchemist's fire for 1/3 cost: for 30 gp you could have three of each. Mixing those at the start of each mission would mean you have three mixtures that are way stronger than your bombs at that level, although very dangerous if you miss. :)
Of course, at high levels your bombs will be doing way more than this. You can still make use of the tactic, however, by passing out the mixtures like candy to your party members. If your other five party members throw these, you have stacked up to 11d6 damage (10d6 initial, and 1d6 for being on fire) on some poor baddie. Touch AC is pretty easy to hit if no one is threatening or in the way.
EDIT: Actually, does the secondary damage stack? I assumed not because it's the same as being on fire, right?
its part of their 'throw anything' ability. and to acid / fire, i dont think so. just int to splash weapons
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
Ok give me some examples of that. Trying to find an alchemy item that it would be worth it for for the cost. Those things are expensive.You got alchemist fire (can last two rounds), takes a full round to put out.
-Thunderstones can deafen a caster.
-Tanglefoot bags entangle, and if the target fails his save glues them in place
-Tangleburn does that AND burns..and if you use water.. it flares up.
-Alkali does extra damage to oozes.A full on Alchemist can get a craft roll in to make them (1/2 cost) and anyone with a day job Alchemcy skill can get a Artisan Vanity which gives a 5% discount. (Not a lot granted.. my GS/Alch has a gun shop instead)
Grenadier works as well as a multiclass really well.
If you get Explosive Missile @ 4th (and you're not 2h fire arms focused like me), and twist in a lot of Alchemical discoveries for bombs it can be ignored/skipped for a vanilla mad bomber/sniper build
Sorry Thomas, but I need to point this out.
Alchemical Weapon (Su): At 2nd
level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon
or piece of ammunition with a single
harmful alchemical liquid or powder,
such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing
powder, as a move action.
Thunderstones and tangle bags aren't a liquid or powder, so they wouldn't be able to be applied with this ability.
|
|
@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.
I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts out
A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
=========================
I presume, though, an Alchemist can infuse Holy Water, to make a potentially devastating attack against an undead opponent...
|
So if I funnel an Acid Flask and an Alchemical Fire into 1 flask, I can then later (within 24hrs) infuse it using Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon (Su) into my bomb, for a total of 3d6(Bomb+Acid+Fire) + 1d6(Fire) at lower levels? (At the cost of 200gp for the funnel and 40gp to make a batch of 3 Alchemical fire and Acid Flasks.)
|
|
Arh.... I really don't think you get to add your int mod 3 times...
Since Alchemical Weapon did state that "Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage".
Alchemical Weapon seems to make your weapon deal more damage/effects via infusing a weapon and not have that 1 weapon hit 3 times.
|
|
I assume a GM needs to initial it, right?
For anything that requires you to roll more then a 10, yes you need a GM to sign off on it.
However, if you take 10 and the number is high enough for the DC of crafting an alchemical item, then you can make such an item easily.
The need for a GM to look on is due to rolling low in a craft check can cos you.
|
|
IMO, the Mindchemist from UM is a better bomber than the Grenadier, which is kind of sad really.
Can someone point me to where it says the Alchemist can craft in PFS. I did not know that or I would have done so already. I assume a GM needs to initial it, right?
mindchemist is great. ability damage for every time you use your cognatogen, that sucks. not sure why they would make better bombers other than that, but that's a big price to pay for a temporary boost to int.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
|
mindchemist is great. ability damage for every time you use your cognatogen, that sucks. not sure why they would make better bombers other than that, but that's a big price to pay for a temporary boost to int.IMO, the Mindchemist from UM is a better bomber than the Grenadier, which is kind of sad really.
Can someone point me to where it says the Alchemist can craft in PFS. I did not know that or I would have done so already. I assume a GM needs to initial it, right?
While using the cognatogen, a mindchemist's damage per bomb (including splash damage) is a touch higher and they can select out a couple more people. If you are going to totally specialize in bombing, that can be nice.
On the other hand, grenadiers get a lot of other bomb related abilities and martial weapon proficiency. Precise bombs for free at 2nd level is particularly nice and gets you ahead in the game early on.
I like grenadier better, particularly since it encourages versatility rather than hyper specialization.
|
|
@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts outA tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.
|
|
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts outA tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
James Jacobs has spoken on this. Tanglefoot bag cannot be infused via Alchemical Weapon (Su).
Read all about it HERE.
|
|
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts outA tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.James Jacobs has spoken on this. Tanglefoot bag cannot be infused via Alchemical Weapon (Su).
Read all about it HERE.
Yes, and I have called him out on that too. His reasons for making this descision are flawed as they are based on someone else's claim that Tanglefoot Bags are not a liquid.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
|
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.
Glass is a technically a liquid also. I suspect the intent is more in line with the common use of the word which generally points to things that slosh out of a mug and 'pour' like a liquid.
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts outA tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
Some scientists consider tar to be, like glass, an amorphous solid.
In general, though, it's usually a bad idea to try and apply real world science to magic.
-j
|
|
Look up the scientific definition of liquid. Tar is a liquid. The fact it has a high viscosity is irrelavent to the fact that it is a liquid. Ergo, a Tanglefoot Bag should work with Alchemical Weapon.@Eric: Aren't Tanglefoot Bags a goo (liquid-like) material, just contained in the bag during transport?
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances.I don't think a tanglefoot bag would work if the contents weren't, essentially, a liquid...
the bag comes apart and goo bursts outA tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.Some scientists consider tar to be, like glass, an amorphous solid.
In general, though, it's usually a bad idea to try and apply real world science to magic.
-j
While I understand your point, if we aren't using a scientific definition of liquid what definition of liquid are we using? Without a definition than any decision on the matter is completely arbitrary.
Best common sense definition for determining what is intended by liquid is probably what most laymen would use, not what a scientist would use.
More or less, if it splashes and flows like water, it's liquid.
Something you can throw at a wall and have it stick there as a blob, probably not. It's goo. Which isn't scientific, but it's reasonable to call that "not liquid", from a layman point of view.
If you have to start out a description of something with, "well, it's technically this", you're probably describing something that is commonly thought of as one thing when it's really another. Most rules authors aren't scientists. They are more likely to use the commonly thought of thing than the technically correct but not obvious thing.
-j
|
|
mindchemist is great. ability damage for every time you use your cognatogen, that sucks. not sure why they would make better bombers other than that, but that's a big price to pay for a temporary boost to int.IMO, the Mindchemist from UM is a better bomber than the Grenadier, which is kind of sad really.
Can someone point me to where it says the Alchemist can craft in PFS. I did not know that or I would have done so already. I assume a GM needs to initial it, right?
While using the cognatogen, a mindchemist's damage per bomb (including splash damage) is a touch higher and they can select out a couple more people. If you are going to totally specialize in bombing, that can be nice.
On the other hand, grenadiers get a lot of other bomb related abilities and martial weapon proficiency. Precise bombs for free at 2nd level is particularly nice and gets you ahead in the game early on.
I like grenadier better, particularly since it encourages versatility rather than hyper specialization.
i realize all that, but it does ability damage to you, which will take 2 days to heal naturally. mutagens do not have that drawback.
cognatogen(Su): The alchemist gains the ability to create a cognatogen, a mutagen-like mixture that heightens one mental ability score at the expense of a physical ability score. If the cognatogen enhances his Intelligence, it applies a penalty to his Strength. If it enhances his Wisdom, it applies a penalty to his Dexterity. If it enhances his Charisma, it applies a penalty to his Constitution. Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus). Anytime the alchemist would prepare a mutagen, he may instead prepare a cognatogen. All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance—an alchemist can only maintain one mutagen or cognatogen at a time, a cognatogen that is not in an alchemist's possession becomes inert, drinking a cognatogen makes a non-alchemist sick, and so on. When the effect of the cognatogen ends, the alchemist takes 2 points of ability damage to the ability score penalized by the cognatogen. The infuse mutagen discovery and the persistent mutagen class ability apply to cognatogens.
that's pretty harsh penalty for a temporary +2 damage, imo. especially at low levels when a lesser restoration may not be readily available.
|
|
Third graders understand what liquid is. You can put it in a super soaker or a water balloon.
@MiniGM Keep in mind the concoction the funnel makes only lasts a limited time then the whole mix turns to worthless goop.
Of course, by that definition, a tanglefoot bag is a water balloon.
Also, by common sense, since there is a very large amount of overlap between teh ingredients of a tanglefoot bag and alchemist's fire, wouldn't that make them similar in other ways?
Flask keeps the alchemist's fire from reacting to air and bursting into flame, alchemist's fire gives that second round of fire damage because the naphtha, which is a petroleum distillate, sicks to the target.
Bag keeps the tanglefoot bag from reacting to air, where the tar, which is also a petroleum distillate, solidifies on the target where it has poured over their body.
So, overall, because of similarity in source of ingredients, and how they react in some ways, shouldn't either both or neither work with the ability?
Also note that JJ's thread is how he would rule for his own home game, not official interpretation of the rules, unless the response also winds up in the FAQs.
|
|
Third graders understand what liquid is. You can put it in a super soaker or a water balloon.
@MiniGM Keep in mind the concoction the funnel makes only lasts a limited time then the whole mix turns to worthless goop.
And by middle school I knew that both tar and glass were liquids. So to me, that IS the laymen definition. This Is why 'technical' is usually a better option for definitions as it far more consistent.
|
|
Glass is not a liquid.And by middle school I knew that both tar and glass were liquids. So to me, that IS the laymen definition. This Is why 'technical' is usually a better option for definitions as it far more consistent.Third graders understand what liquid is. You can put it in a super soaker or a water balloon.
@MiniGM Keep in mind the concoction the funnel makes only lasts a limited time then the whole mix turns to worthless goop.
So what you are saying is that my Jr. High text book from 1976 is out of date? Phshaaw!
Ironically the commonality of the urban legend actually makes "glass is a liquid" the "layman" definition.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
|
i realize all that, but it does ability damage to you, which will take 2 days to heal naturally. mutagens do not have that drawback.
Just pointing out some of the reasons folks would like it. For some folks, it's the never ending quest for moar damage per round.