Lazar, not to knit pick again, but both statements, mine and your are true. The cover sells, however Cassandra gave her that armour, during the creepy ritual scene where Alias cannot disobey her commands.
I wonder if this would be the best place to put; This?
That's pure GOLD.
I also think it is one of the more intelligent and productive ways to actually tackle the issue. The haterade/sand-in-underpants approach is hardly effective.
Comedy is what helps drive change.
My point is that it's not just women. Men do the same thing.
In Thursday's example, of the women, two were quite attractive and the third was, well, not. And everyone talked to all three of them. Maybe because of the 4:3 ratio, I don't know, but there you have it. I'll keep an eye out on later social outings and report back.
Perhaps that was the "gatekeeping" effect in action, haha? Essentially, the men have to engage the less attractive woman, otherwise they run the risk of losing the entire group (including the more attractive women).
Perhaps that was the "gatekeeping" effect in action, haha? Essentially, the men have to engage the less attractive woman, otherwise they run the risk of losing the entire group (including the more attractive women).
But women don't have the same issue, non? Because the women don't have to engage that fourth guy. They can leave him in the wind. And they do, without a second thought.
Men have a preponderance of power in business and the workplace and mass media. Women have a preponderance of power in dating and in social milieux in general. That means that women still get the short end of the stick overall -- no question, and that's something I'd like to see change. But that doesn't also mean they do everywhere, all the time.
Agreed. Women tend to have more power in the dating world. Since they have more to risk (childbirth, etc) they tend to be more selective about their mates (at least in the modern age). They still choose based on roughly the same criteria as men do, though (first and foremost they are driven to seek attractive/healthy mates). As others have pointed out here and elsewhere, men are less essential than women (or at least, are assumed to be). Therefor, women are at a social advantage (in this regard).
Possibly apropos. It's long-winded and needlessly crass (I think Hitch had had a few too many Johnny Walkers before writing it), but there's a point hidden in there somewhere.
Haha, Hitch :)
Hitch, dude, I want women to be funny!
Nothing more alluring than a rapier wit and enough derring-do to go poking it about with reckless abandon.
I frequent a stand-up Comedy bar on a regular basis and some of the women they get there are awesome; so very attractive.
Every time I see a female game character with C+ cups who is very obviously not wearing a bra of some sort, part of me dies a little inside. That must be SO PAINFUL. Poor Seoni... ;_;
I will quote the sorceress image macro for Dragon's Crown.
"It's magic, I ain't gotta explain t&$+."
Less flippantly, while I'm not tying Charisma intrinsically to Appearance, it IS a factor (especially if one uses the legacy of 'split scores' from late AD&D 2E for stat interpretation such as discussed in this thread) and frankly why I tend to picture sorcerers and charisma casters in general as being willing to indulge in such fanservicey wear and/or gimmicks - it increases their power over the affected victims/targets. For certain bloodlines, it's especially appropriate; someone with nymph blood would certainly want to make full use of their looks to empower their spellcasting, or an aasamir for that matter. For more dragon-blooded or abberation-types, I could see the argument for the whole 'force of will' thing being more the driving forc...but then again, I could see the sheer physical differences bringing that presence of personality to bear.
Having recently played the demo for Darkstalkers Resurrection, I was thinking in particular of Albath (Rikuo in the western world) and some of his abilities; when he uses his ranged 'water geyser' super, his chest turns into a writhing mass of tentacles directing the forthcoming waterspout. He is, loathe as I am to quote the American cartoon, 'curiously attractive for a fishman'. I could definitely see an abberation-type sorcerer managing to impress more than a few ladies with his move Aqua Spread.
Also, I was away for a few days, and am still catching up on this thread, but I was delayed by feeling unbelievably old at the revelation that so many games were missed out on, including Legendary Wings and Athena from the NES days. Parasite Eve is PS1 though, and still easy to find. Give it a try if you get a chance.
RE: Mikaze and the 'power equals emotionlessness' meme in Japan - I'm right there with you. Most portrayals have female characters, protagonist or not, as being incredibly powered but partnered either to sheer emotionless apathy or nearly psychotic overemotional insanity. Pioneer in particular was noteworthy for this in the Tenchi Muyo multiverses and El-Hazaard.
I disagree about Shanoa's Castlevania Judgment look. VEHEMENTLY. But I won't hold that against you. Then again, I especially loathed the way they characterized Maria, in specific her reaction to Sypha's assets...or, hell, the blatant 'OH NO BREAST ENVY' subplot of her storyline.
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Yeah, speaking of Charisma Casters, this is totally how my next one is dressing:
That said, shouldn't the likes of Seoni etc be able to dress in anything they want, including their bathroom/leisurewear attire? Why be fully clad if you are a caster that plans on not being hit with physical objects?
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I don't have a problem with Seoni's outfit per se. Mostly just a phantom pain feeling. Y'know how you wince when you see someone in a movie or TV show get kicked in the balls? That kind of feeling. Because from experience, doing anything too physical with no bra on = paiiiiin :(
I don't have a problem with Seoni's outfit per se. Mostly just a phantom pain feeling. Y'know how you wince when you see someone in a movie or TV show get kicked in the balls? That kind of feeling. Because from experience, doing anything too physical with no bra on = paiiiiin :(
Exactly what I was inferring.
Bigs...er, 'Mage's' Hefting Handspan?
Mini force-cages to prevent floppage.
It's magic etc.
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So yeah thejeff,
But that said, in an urban environemt you also need to dress appropriately.
Funny how many functions and high society events the adventurers attend wearing full outdoors gear and wrapped with 50' of hemp rope and a golfbag full of swords.
It goes both ways.
Oh and lets not forget the Chain Shirt pyjamas everyone wears to bed :)
So yeah thejeff,
But that said, in an urban environemt you also need to dress appropriately.
Funny how many functions and high society events the adventurers attend wearing full outdoors gear and wrapped with 50' of hemp rope and a golfbag full of swords.
It goes both ways.
Oh and lets not forget the Chain Shirt pyjamas everyone wears to bed :)
Yes you need to dress appropriately in social settings... something I have great fun rubbing in foolish adventurers faces when they forget to go dress shopping before the noble ball. But tromping through the wilds in a cocktail dress is a quick way to ruin the dress and your skin.
When PC are invited to a ball in my games, they are expected to have appropriate dress. At most they can carry a shortsword or rapier as more of a dress weapon. The power attacking barbarian fighting with just a rapier is often kind of humorous.
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But see that is just the point.
Why do people assume that the way the character is depicted in a piece of illustration is the ONLY way they walk around and they dress like that 24/7?
What are your typical clothes? Would some be 'dressed to impress'? Would some be strictly business?
I think the problem with the art is when the character is ONLY illustrated in one kind of outfit, if there is going to be iconics, surely they have enough money for more than one wardrobe? Sometimes they just go hang out for beer and pizza and dress casual?
That said, I think it would be well appropriate for the tres-chic wardrobe wearing player to point at a sewer and say "No way I'm going in there, these boots are suede".
That said, with one cantrip you can clean your outfit, and with a level 1 spell yuo can fix any damage you did to your 'Elfuie of Cheliax' dress.
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You know, just for once, I'd like to see the back of an AP with all the iconics sitting around a table in a tavern in relaxed clothes, all chilled out, no make up or perfectly groomed hair - just a real 'morning after' drinks after finishing their adventure.
Surely they'd go out for a few beers after the dungeon crawl right?
"The Hangover 6:Rise of the Runelords"
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Animator creates mod to make Zelda the heroine of The Legend of Zelda
YES
(Mikaze I hope you see this)
I've got no problem with Seoni's dress because there's other female characters like Seelah walking around in full plate (and it makes sense for a Cha-caster to show a little skin, if they want to). My only gripe about her is that it doesn't really seem to match her personality all that well (LN). Oh, and there's also the "Chain Lightning" illustration in the magic chapter of the the Core Rulebook (aka - butt floss)... I just pretend that doesn't exist.
The only problem I have with Seoni's dress is all the silk-screening that was involved. That was a pain in my neck! ;)
Regarding Seoni: I can't tell, is she supposed to be tan with white hair, or white with blonde hair? The art is very confusing. I wish the artists would settle on one or the other.
My only gripe about her is that it doesn't really seem to match her personality all that well (LN).
Whatchagotagainst LN? All that rules lawyering making them uptight? They have to dress like librarians?
Pretty much spot on. Maybe it's a false assertion, but I've always imagined LN as the uptight-alignment.
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Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?
Seems legit.
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Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?
Seems legit.
I know (presumably hetero) guys who somehow managed to sit through all of "300," so, yeah, more legit than you'd think.
Q: How many women do I know who were Schwarzenegger or Stallone fans, back in their heyday?
A: Zero.
Q: How many men?
A: Well, me, for one. Not as eye candy, but because, let's face it, Leonadro diCaprio is NOT action-star material. He looks like a sissy little girl, and it gets in the way of immersion, because he clearly lacks the physical prowess to do the stuff he's supposed to be doing.
Follow up: How many women would prefer that all action stars look like diCaprio instead of Stallone?
A: Probably most of them, because they'd want him for eye candy rather than physical prowess.
My point is that it's not just women. Men do the same thing. People tend to treat attractive people better than ugly people. It's sad, but it's true.
If an attractive person smiles at you, you might think "That's nice!" Whereas if an ugly person smiles at you, you might think "What do they want?" Of course this isn't done on purpose. It's a mostly subconscious reaction. Once you're aware of this bias it becomes easier to see people in a different light, and not to fall into these behaviors.
interesting point, and one that was made earlier I think, much to the chagrin of those who take issue with cheesecake/creepers.
Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?
Seems legit.
I know (presumably hetero) guys who somehow managed to sit through all of "300," so, yeah, more legit than you'd think.
Q: How many women do I know who were Schwarzenegger or Stallone fans, back in their heyday?
A: Zero.
Q: How many men?
A: Well, me, for one. Not as eye candy, but because, let's face it, Leonadro diCaprio is NOT action-star material. He looks like a sissy little girl, and it gets in the way of immersion, because he clearly lacks the physical prowess to do the stuff he's supposed to be doing.Follow up: How many women would prefer that all action stars look like diCaprio instead of Stallone?
A: Probably most of them, because they'd want him for eye candy rather than physical prowess.
This is not the best comparison - Dicaprio is so far removed from being a contemporary of Schwarzenegger or stallone it boggles the mind. It would be better to compare Dicaprio with someone who is at least in his age range - the fabio/clooney comparison earlier was far better.
interesting point, and one that was made earlier I think, much to the chagrin of those who take issue with cheesecake/creepers.My point is that it's not just women. Men do the same thing. People tend to treat attractive people better than ugly people. It's sad, but it's true.
If an attractive person smiles at you, you might think "That's nice!" Whereas if an ugly person smiles at you, you might think "What do they want?" Of course this isn't done on purpose. It's a mostly subconscious reaction. Once you're aware of this bias it becomes easier to see people in a different light, and not to fall into these behaviors.
Also Kirth, it's obvious we know different women the only person I know who finds diCaprio attractive is my ex. The vast majority of women I know would prefer stallone or Schwarzenegger in their youth to diCaprio today.
Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?
Seems legit.
I know (presumably hetero) guys who somehow managed to sit through all of "300," so, yeah, more legit than you'd think.
Q: How many women do I know who were Schwarzenegger or Stallone fans, back in their heyday?
A: Zero.
Q: How many men?
A: Well, me, for one. Not as eye candy, but because, let's face it, Leonadro diCaprio is NOT action-star material. He looks like a sissy little girl, and it gets in the way of immersion, because he clearly lacks the physical prowess to do the stuff he's supposed to be doing.Follow up: How many women would prefer that all action stars look like diCaprio instead of Stallone?
A: Probably most of them, because they'd want him for eye candy rather than physical prowess.
I replied before the followup/edits were in place, but I was going to note the typical correlation != causality routine, if only because I know a lot of women who were into Schwartzenegger back in the day, his body being the only reason they would suffer through the rest of the action in said flicks. Similarly Stallone, though less for Rambo and more for Rocky. Take this with a grain of salt for the same reason I made this post, and note also that the demographic I was working with was also an odd subset, specifically Air Force wives of varying ethnic origins weighted slightly towards the negroid end of the spectrum. Tangentially related, the majority of the women who seemed to favor Sly over Ahnold were latina - make of that what you will.
Also, as far as power/trope fantasies go, I'd figure some greedy sorts would want both - Ahnold or Sly as the party barbarian or warrior, Leo as the party sorcerer or bard, with maybe a slice of Sean Connery as the wizard and Brad Pitt as the alchemist or maybe rogue, Gerard Butler getting a shot as the alternative barbarian or possibly a more martial druid, and if we want to go token throw in Jet Li as the monk.
interesting point, and one that was made earlier I think, much to the chagrin of those who take issue with cheesecake/creepers.My point is that it's not just women. Men do the same thing. People tend to treat attractive people better than ugly people. It's sad, but it's true.
If an attractive person smiles at you, you might think "That's nice!" Whereas if an ugly person smiles at you, you might think "What do they want?" Of course this isn't done on purpose. It's a mostly subconscious reaction. Once you're aware of this bias it becomes easier to see people in a different light, and not to fall into these behaviors.
Why would I be chagrined?
I'm not winding you up, that's a real question. I take issue with the amount of cheesecake in RPG art because the vast majority of of women I've heard from tell me that it makes them feel excluded, and I don't think anyone, man, woman or martian, should be excluded from RPGs sheerly by dint of the art design. I take issue with impolite creepers because being rude and demanding a forgiving reaction from the entire world is just an asinine way to be.
I don't deny that the beautiful people have an easier time of it than the rest of us low charisma NPCS, but I don't feel like I've been caught in a lie by some essential contradiction in these three points of view.
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This thread has reached its apex: Sean Connery Wizard. Too much cool... too much... overload... overload!
@ Hitdice: I feel like my quote was taken out of context. It has nothing at all to do with cheesecake; though, I guess it might in a broader context. I don't know. Color me confused.
The only part of it that bothers me is the implication that "creepiness" is only dependent on looks/attraction and thus the creepy guys aren't actually doing anything wrong. It's all the woman's fault for not being attracted to him.
I don't think anyone has said that.
Social interaction is a complicated mess of assumptions, prejudices, and all manner of other of bias.
That said, it's not the only factor. The way in which you choose to communicate will determines how others react to you.
Again, it's very complicated. Two people could communicate the exact same information, but receive two wildly different reactions based on all manner of things. Something as often overlooked as body language can really make an impact. So too can confidence.
In short, I don't think it's as simple as "who's to blame".
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This thread has reached its apex: Sean Connery Wizard. Too much cool... too much... overload... overload!
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The only part of it that bothers me is the implication that "creepiness" is only dependent on looks/attraction and thus the creepy guys aren't actually doing anything wrong. It's all the woman's fault for not being attracted to him.
In many cases -- although not all by a long shot -- it IS based on looks/attraction. So is it all the man's fault for being unattractive? Maybe we need to stop painting with a broad brush, being so quick to look for "fault" everywhere, and maybe deal with what is.
Can behavior be changed? Yes. Should it, if inappropriate? Hell, yes.Can appearance be changed? Not so much. Should it? Not applicable.
Can preference be changed? Probably not. Should it? Not applicable.
Can reaction, based on that preference, be changed? Yes. Should it? I'd say that, in some cases, yes, it wouldn't hurt. If more "hot" guys got called out for inappropriate behavior, and fewer unattractive guys got labeled "creeps" for not-inappropriate behavior, things might be a bit better.
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I've got no problem with Seoni's dress because there's other female characters like Seelah walking around in full plate (and it makes sense for a Cha-caster to show a little skin, if they want to). My only gripe about her is that it doesn't really seem to match her personality all that well (LN). Oh, and there's also the "Chain Lightning" illustration in the magic chapter of the the Core Rulebook (aka - butt floss)... I just pretend that doesn't exist.
Well, if you were going to consider Seoni's dress ...
"Gypsy" is often times considered a racial slur, by the way. Not sure many Romani are big on the term... Might want to consider that.
Can appearance be changed? Not so much. Should it? Not applicable.
Appearance can *very much* be changed. Not every guy can be David Tennant, but in reality, you don't have to be. If you manage to stay within a reasonably healthy weight for your height, practice hygiene, and pay a modicum of attention to your clothing you're probably in the top 20% of men, looks-wise.
David Tennant is your example? My girlfriend thinks he's cute, too--I don't really see it! Haha.
"Gypsy" is often times considered a racial slur, by the way. Not sure many Romani are big on the term... Might want to consider that.
Oddly enough, I've most frequently heard it described as offensive, but in the same level and intensity of intensity as using 'Coloured' for those of the more negroid ancestry - antiquated at best, and a measure of one's upbringing (and lack of enlightenment therein). Unfortunately, as I am not one of the Romani, I can't give personal account, only second-hand.
As a person of 'color' I find that particular word inoffensive, if not a trifle old-fashioned and most often heard from the garndparents of people I know who grew up in the South, regardless of ethnicity. I still find it weird to hear in acronyms, even legacy ones like NAACP. That's my take, your mileage may vary, see manufacturer for details, consult a physician if you experience gluteal pain for longer than fifteen minutes.